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allischalmers
Guest
No: I am saying that after you get to heaven you will be a Baptist
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mepatri
Guest
That may be the actual title - but the actual office is that of a prince or a king. Case in point: the arch bishop of the local diocese held a fund raiser not long ago. Persons assisting were to meet the arch bishop before the event. They were each instructed to, when meeting him, kneel, kiss his outstreched ring finger, and call him “your excellency”, and he’s merely an arch bishop, not the Pope. Another case in point - when the Pope lands in another country, he kisses the ground immediately upon leaving the plane. This isn’t because he was scared to death to fly, and is kissing mother earth to celebrate his good fortune. In reality he is claiming that ground for Rome, much like a king would. If that doesn’t sound like royalty, I don’t know what does.
Let’s take a closer look at that scripture shall we? It’s Hebrews 4:12
That sounds like scripture is a little more important than you make it out to be. Where in the Bible does it speak of tradition in this way?
Today indulgences are not sold, but they have been sold in the past to cure the sick, gain the favor of God, and even buy a ticket to heaven. The fact is that if the catholic church decided tomorrow that it was a good idea to sell them again - they would. If you’re honest with yourself, you’ll realize that if the pope declared it to be acceptable, you’d accept it too, right? The fact is that there is no need for catholics to speculate on if a person is saved or not, because they can tell for sure, without any effort at all if the person is saved. For instance - my wife left the catholic church some time back. She has been told by other catholics, priests, and even a deacon that she’s going to hell. This is because if she doesn’t receive the sacraments, specifically the Euchrist, she will have no grace, and she’ll go to hell. Every catholic knows this. This is what I mean by a catholic being able to see themselves as better than everyone else. There’s a guage for that - and it’s called “the sacraments.”
The only scriptural view on this is that if a person does not accept Christ in his or her heart, that person cannot be saved. Not because he or she didn’t perform some sort of ritual, but because that person has simply denied salvation and the free will gift God has given them. God will not force that person into a relationship with Him.
The gift of grace is set before us. It is up to each of us to either pick it up and accept it, to deny it, or to follow another path that doesn’t lead to it. Regardless of what we choose, the gift is free for the taking. The choice is yours.
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mepatri
Guest
The Roman Catholic church was formally organized under Constintine however, Christianity existed before that, and was called “the way” before the catholic church ever came about. Constantine saw the writing on the wall, and recognized the church that Jesus had started as gaining power - so he embraced it. Nothing more, nothing less. The senior priests I spoke of were not catholic priests - catholic priests did not exist formally yet. The word “priest” is not the soul property of the catholic church. There are others who are called priests. In fact, did you know that the Bible calls YOU a priest?
Other relevant Scripture passages include 1 Peter 2:4-8, Revelation 1:4-6, 5:6-10, and many passages in the Epistle to the Hebrews.
In the Bible Jesus is called our “High Priest.” There is no need for earthly priests today. In the past - yes, but not today. Why? Because Jesus came as the ultimate sacrifice - we cannot do better by way of a Mass, than He did that day at calvary. We believe that Jesus is still alive - not dead. He has no need for our rituals - and only His sacrifice appeases the Father, not anything we do. Those days are gone - read Hebrews. He (Jesue) is active in His church, and He is present everywhere, all the time, for anyone who seeks Him. There is no need for ongoing offerings. Consider this scripture…
Outward sacrafices don’t mean as much to God as personal sacrifice.
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jmcrae
Guest
Constantine was never a Catholic during his lifetime; he was not even a Christian until he converted on his deathbed. His mother (St. Helena) was a Catholic from the time she was a little girl, long before he was born - this was the reason he tolerated Christianity in his Empire. But Constantine himself was not Catholic, and he did not “found” the Catholic Church, or even have anything to do with it, other than sometimes attending Mass with his mother, and making it legal to practice the Catholic faith in a public way.
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ricmat
Guest
Excuse me. I’ve never seen any King kiss the ground. That sounds like exactly the opposite of Royalty to me. You certainly have a way of taking anything you observe and twisting it. You have a hammer so every problem looks like a nail…
BTW - this practice was a personal thing with JP2.
Left - or you talked her out of it?
That’s very unfortunate, because…it is not actually Catholic teaching (even if a priest or deacon said it). Please understand this…what you say above is NOT Catholic teaching. They were misinformed.
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6YRSHOME
Guest
Please explain this theory to me. I don’t understand your logic.No: I am saying that after you get to heaven you will be a Baptist
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jmcrae
Guest
Do you even have any idea what an Indulgence is? It *can’*t be sold because only God and you know whether you even have one, or not. It’s not a physical thing that someone can hand over to you in exchange for money, like a newspaper or a candy bar.
It’s true that at one time, one could receive an Indulgence for giving money to a good cause, and in this sense, I suppose one could “buy” an Indulgence, but that’s about the end of it. People were still receiving Indulgences for saying their prayers and for doing other kinds of good deeds, too, the same as we do today - not only for giving money to good causes.
Indulgences also can’t cure the sick, or get you a “ticket to Heaven” - I think that’s what the Sinner’s Prayer is for, isn’t it?
All they do is remove the temporal punishments of past sinful behaviour, of sins that have already been confessed and forgiven (not anything that you will do at some time in the future), from the soul of the person who has the Indulgence.
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ricmat
Guest
The Catholic church has a continuous history (and admittedly not all of it is “good”) going back to Peter. Can you? As Jmcrae points out, it had nothing to do with Constantine. That’s a lie perpetrated by zealous Protestants who need to justify their own heresy.
In terms of me being a priest - yes, I knew that. THAT’S CATHOLIC TEACHING TOO. We are all part of what is called the common priesthood. There is also a sacramental priesthood (whom we normally refer to as priests). Jesus reserved certain sacramental powers for his apostles (but not his disciples at large).
Well, I guess if your denomination doesn’t have priests, then you need to come up with some explanation for why your denomination doesn’t have priests.
Yes, Jesus is still alive. Of course he’s alive, he’s the second person of the trinity = God. And has been said many times already, the Mass is not “another” sacrifice, it is the SAME sacrifice which started with the last supper and continued through the crucifixion. And continued through the ascention (when Jesus presented his sacrifice to God the Father), and which continues forever in heaven.
I have 2 questions for you.
Do you believe that Jesus is divine?
Do you believe in the Trinitarian God of Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit?
S
Spirithound
Guest
We partake in the Old Testament protocol of a sacrifice, because as near as we can figure out, that’s what a sacrifice is. After Christ’s death and resurrection his followers no longer sacrifice animals because Christ Himself was and is the sacrifice. So, St. Paul talks about the Lord’s Supper, which is our Eucharist today.
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Spirithound
Guest
I think what Allischalmers is saying is that our sinful Catholic-ness will be purged away prior to admission to Heaven :tiphat:allischalmers;2029638:
Please explain this theory to me. I don’t understand your logic.No: I am saying that after you get to heaven you will be a Baptist
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ricmat
Guest
But that would require…purgatory…
Of course, in purgatory all sinfulness, be it Catholic-ness or Baptist-ness or other-ness will all be purged away. Assuming we want it to be.
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6YRSHOME
Guest
M
mepatri
Guest
It’s easy to see why you may be mislead by certain beliefs of the Catholic faith, if you so easily misunderstand history. Constatine converted to Christianity long before he died. Actually, it’s doubtful that he ever really did become a Christian. Even so - according to the historian Eusebius - Constantine, just before the crucial battle of Milvian Bridge, was convinced that he needed divine assistance. He prayed for assistance from God, and the story goes that God sent him a vision of a cross of light at midday, bearing the inscription “in hoc signo vinces” (in this sign you will be victorious.) After a series of confirming events, Constantine converted to Christianity, and ordered the symbol of Christ’s name to represent his army. He was victorius in the battle, and he continued to wear the symbol for Christ thereafter in all other wars he was engaged in. It was hardly a “deathbed” conversion.
Constantine was never a “catholic” in the sense that he “joined” the Catholic Church. There was no official Catholic Church at the time. I think you’re confusing Christianity with Catholocism. Christianity existed before the Catholic Church, before the official list of sacraments (excluding babtism and communion), before Catholic priests, pennance, confession to men, holy orders, mortal and venial sins, the pope, purgatory, limbo, indulgences, the exaltation of Mary, and the Euchrist. Beleive it or not, people were saved before these things existed. In fact - did you know that Mary’s alleged sinlessness was not proclaimed as dogma by the Roman Catholic Church unil A.D. 1547? Why wasn’t this dogma revealed in the pages of Scripture, instead of suddenly appearing 1500 years after the fact?
It’s because the Catholic Church makes up things as it goes along. I feel bad for those Catholics that for more that 1500 years were not aware that Mary was “sinless”. I’m sure it impacted their devotion to her.
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mepatri
Guest
This is funny. Most historians ( and even the Catholic Church ), give credit to Athanasius as being the major force behind cannonization of the scriptures. Because Athanasius’ canon is the closest canon of any of the Church Fathers, Protestant churches point to Athanasius as the father of the canon, and so do many Catholics.
You have to remember that there are many commonalities between the Catholic and Protestant churches. Catholics don’t enjoy some exclusive connection to the early church fathers, nor do they possess any unique connection to the early days of Christianity. What the Catholic Church does show is a gradual falling away from the original truth of the scriptures by adding, subtracting, and fabricating all kinds of beliefs and practices. The example I gave earlier is the dogma of the sinlesness of Mary that came about in 1547. This central doctrine of the Catholic Church today didn’t exist for more than 1500 years, and many Catholics went to their deaths not ever hearing about it.This is because it doesn’t appear anywhere in scipture, and it isn’t true. If your fellow brothers and sisters in the Catholic faith came back today, they would, at the very least, be completely and utterly taken aback by what you believe about Mary today. They would most likely reject it as heresy.
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ricmat
Guest
You are living in a fantasy world devoid of any objective reality.
BTW - I think you’re referring to St. Athanasius above
Funny you should mention him. My prior signature was a quote from our good St. Athanasius.
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mepatri
Guest
I wrote:
Here’s a good way to put it:
Then you wrote:
The point here is the claiming of the land, not how he goes about it. I suppose the pope thinks this is the best way to symbolize what he’s doing. It’s probably better than pulling out a sword, running through the president of the country he’s visiting, and wiping the blood off on his robe - don’t you think?
Here’s a good way to put it:
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mepatri
Guest
Uh - yeah, that’s what I said - Athanasius. I have no problem adding “St.” for St. Athanasius if that’s what you’re getting at. The notion of saints is not unique to the Catholic faith. The Bible states we’re all “saints” in the faith, and in the proclamation of God’s word. There was nothing special about Athanasius. He advocated for the faith, as we all should. Quote St. Athanasius all you like - just make sure you quote him accurately please.
This is a fine example of what I pointed out earlier, about how Catholics “measue” holiness. St. Athanasius is somehow “better” than the rest of us - more holy - more favored by God. The Bible makes it clear that there is no one that is good in the sight of God. Not even St. Athanasius. This would also include Mary, the Apostles, and yes, even the Pope.
In my opinion, the people who live in a “fantasy world” are those that don’t know the word of God, or ignore it in favor of their faith. I find that most Catholics worship their faith, more than God. Many of them have faith in faith. This is contrary to God’s word.
OF COURSE - if all you were getting at was that you made reference to him - disregard what I said. I just like to stir up the pot a little.
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Eileen_T
Guest
This is getting off-track. If some people wish to discuss sola scriptura, start another thread please.
One thing Catholics do that non-Catholic Christian churches don’t is found in the book of Malachi. Ch 1:11
*For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts. *
A clean oblation describes the body and blood of Christ in the eucharistic sacrifice.
Catholics offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass every day, so in some part of the world, at every minute, there is likely to be a Mass being offered. This is so that we can fulfill Jesus’ prayer when he taught us to ask of the Father “Give us this day our daily bread.”
In the early Church, there were two parts to the Liturgy. The first Christians were Jewish and attended the Temple or Synagogue for the reading of God’s Word, which was a 3-year cycle reading from the Torah, singing of Psalms (chant, much like our Plain Chant) and they would read from one of the prophets.
The Christians would have the second liturgy when they returned to their home/s, which was the Breaking of the Bread. They perceived this as a sacrifice in which the Lamb of God offered Himself to glorify His father and to save the people.
They would obviously also talk about what Jesus taught, and what He meant. (Forerunner of the Gospel readings, and homily)
Later, because of the Jewish leaders, they broke away from the Temple altogether and Sunday became the main day of worship.
One thing Catholics do that non-Catholic Christian churches don’t is found in the book of Malachi. Ch 1:11
*For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts. *
A clean oblation describes the body and blood of Christ in the eucharistic sacrifice.
Catholics offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass every day, so in some part of the world, at every minute, there is likely to be a Mass being offered. This is so that we can fulfill Jesus’ prayer when he taught us to ask of the Father “Give us this day our daily bread.”
In the early Church, there were two parts to the Liturgy. The first Christians were Jewish and attended the Temple or Synagogue for the reading of God’s Word, which was a 3-year cycle reading from the Torah, singing of Psalms (chant, much like our Plain Chant) and they would read from one of the prophets.
The Christians would have the second liturgy when they returned to their home/s, which was the Breaking of the Bread. They perceived this as a sacrifice in which the Lamb of God offered Himself to glorify His father and to save the people.
They would obviously also talk about what Jesus taught, and what He meant. (Forerunner of the Gospel readings, and homily)
Later, because of the Jewish leaders, they broke away from the Temple altogether and Sunday became the main day of worship.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Yes, he used the Chi Rho on his armour, for the reason that you’ve given. This was one of the steps on the road to his ultimate death-bed conversion.
He received Baptism and the Last Rites on his death bed.
The Sacraments of the Catholic Church were established by Jesus Christ, and promulgated throughout the known world by the Apostles and their followers.
They knew perfectly well that she was sinless. In fact, they were writing about her sinlessness in some of the very first theological works of the Church.
Our beliefs are never proclaimed as “dogma” until someone doubts them. Then, there is a whole formal investigation, and at the end of the investigation, the Pope makes a declaration of the findings of the investigation. (For example, it is not a “dogma” that Jesus Christ had hair. The reason is that no Catholic has ever doubted this. If someone doubts it in the year 3094, and a Pope proclaims it as “dogma” in 3197, will you say that “Catholics never believed that Jesus had hair until 3197”?)
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kentuckyliz
Guest
When I was a “homeless Christian” attending a bunch of different services at a bunch of different churches, it never felt like we ever got around to the direct, vertical worship of the Thrice Holy God–including worshipping with my body.
Instead, it felt more like a pep assembly from school.
Any time trays of cubed wonder bread and shot glasses of Welch’s were passed around, I just had to try my hardest not to laugh. Those shot glass trays were like the ones out at the college bars. --I would never participate in the Lord’s Supper elsewhere, though back then I wasn’t sure why, it just didn’t seem worth doing. Of course, now I know that I was implicitly recognizing the emptiness of a Lord’s Supper without the Real Presence. As Flannery O’Connor said, “If it’s just a symbol, well, to hell with it!” Yup. No empty rituals for me.
Well, my wandering made me appreciate what I had! Yup, I’m a prodigal daughter or “revert.”
PS To my Baptist friend that thinks everyone in Heaven is a Baptist: I pray for Protestant souls in Purgatory languishing with no one to pray for them! You’re welcome!
Instead, it felt more like a pep assembly from school.
Any time trays of cubed wonder bread and shot glasses of Welch’s were passed around, I just had to try my hardest not to laugh. Those shot glass trays were like the ones out at the college bars. --I would never participate in the Lord’s Supper elsewhere, though back then I wasn’t sure why, it just didn’t seem worth doing. Of course, now I know that I was implicitly recognizing the emptiness of a Lord’s Supper without the Real Presence. As Flannery O’Connor said, “If it’s just a symbol, well, to hell with it!” Yup. No empty rituals for me.
Well, my wandering made me appreciate what I had! Yup, I’m a prodigal daughter or “revert.”
PS To my Baptist friend that thinks everyone in Heaven is a Baptist: I pray for Protestant souls in Purgatory languishing with no one to pray for them! You’re welcome!
- Status