The Meaning of Bodily Resurrection

[Ben_Masada]

So everywhere in the Torah or the Prophets when there is mention of some supernatural event, what is that – Greek mythology entering into Jewish Scriptures?

No, no Greek Mythology, but something in need to be interepreted either metaphorically, or something which happened during a vision or dream.

 

[Ben_Masada]

No, I don’t think so…

**That’s all? What do you suggest then? **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Jesus believed every word of the , what I would call the OT. He was a Jew from birth to death. He also knew that Isaiah 53 was referring to him. He also knew that he came/was sent to save our souls.

Jeanne

**Are you positive about the above? Jesus never considered what he believed in to be Old Testament. This is a Christian misnomer which reflects Replacement Theology.

Regarding Isaiah, Jesus would not contradict the Prophet who refers to the collective Messiah and not to an individual Jew.

And if Jesus knew that he had come to save our souls, why would he pray three times not to walk the way of the cross? Had he changed his mind about saving our souls?**

 

[JeanneH]

**Are you positive about the above? Jesus never considered what he believed in to be Old Testament. This is a Christian misnomer which reflects Replacement Theology.

**

Mary and Joseph were Jews who followed the Torah. They did everything according to Jewish law. Jesus was raised a Jew according to the Torah. Are you positive that Jesus did not believe all the Torah?

**

Regarding Isaiah, Jesus would not contradict the Prophet who refers to the collective Messiah and not to an individual Jew.

**
Chapter and verse about collective Messiah please?

Try reading Isaiah 52:13+ Who do you think God is talking about here. Who do you think the “he” is that is to be exalted? The meaning of the word Messiah contradicts what you say. Messiah in Jewish religion means king of the Jews, anointed one.
Try reading from Luke 4:16 and see if Jesus thought he was the one prophesied about.

**

And if Jesus knew that he had come to save our souls, why would he pray three times not to walk the way of the cross? Had he changed his mind about saving our souls?

**

No. Jesus in his humanity did not want to die but in the end he obeyed his father.

You talk about replacement theology. Christianity is not a replacement theology. The NT completes the Torah.

What is your basis of thought that tells you that Jesus is not the Messiah?

Again if you don’t believe the NT why all the questions? Is it that you are searching for a reason to believe?
:banghead:

Peace
Jeanne

 

[Daedelus76]

Jesus was definitely dead when he was taken off the cross. The kind of treatment he got, you just can’t be revived from. The “swoon hypothesis” is ancient, and ridiculous. The scourging Romans gave to prisoners itself was frequently fatal, usually it would kill victims after days or weeks.

My faith doesn’t rest on it, but I believe the Shroud of Turin is authentic. Last month a researcher, Raymond Rogers, released a tape posthumously where he admitted that the fibers of the cloth were contaminated by medieval reweaving (it partially burned in a fire), that the Shroud was likely much older than the radiocarbon dating suggested. The Vatican also released a research report investigating records from the trial of the Knights Templar where it was revealed this group most likely had the Shroud of Turin for 100 years previously, and it is likely was connected with the Mandylon of Edessa, a sacred relic that was taken to Constantinople after the early church period. The idea that the Shroud and the Mandylon of Edessa are one in the same is the accepted among believers on this issue. The Mandylon of Edessa was the “image not created by human hands” that the Orthodox used in their iconography, it was a cloth that was folded over to display the face attributed to Jesus. The Shroud of Turn has fold marks that look very similar to the Mandylon. There’s too many things for me to dismissing this as coincidence.

Some theories of the “how” of the resurrection from the Shroud- the body in the Shroud somehow vanished or dematerialized (the matter may have been converted into some type of energy, hence the image, which is similar to a burn- it also has depth data, a height map suggesting the object that created it was three-dimensional); the cloth sank through the body. Ultimately, I believe the “how” of the resurrection is a mystery, but it was not simply resuscitation or revival- even that is part of the orthodox tradition of the resurrection. It wasn’t the same as the Lazarus account of being “raised from the dead”.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5185952:

Chapter and verse about collective Messiah please?

**My pleasure. But before I give you chapter and verse about collective Messiah, let me ask you a question. Do you believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah? I believe you do. Now, you can read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that you won’t have to assume that he was Jesus. **

Try reading Isaiah 52:13+ Who do you think God is talking about here. Who do you think the “he” is that is to be exalted? The meaning of the word Messiah contradicts what you say. Messiah in Jewish religion means king of the Jews, anointed one.

**I don’t think, I am sure it’s about Israel. The quotations of Isaiah above serve to confirm the truth that Isaiah 52:13 speaks about Israel. Messiah also means the People. Read Habakkuk 3:13. **

And if Jesus knew that he had come to save our souls, why would he pray three times not to walk the way of the cross? Had he changed his mind about saving our souls?

No. Jesus in his humanity did not want to die but in the end he obeyed his father.

The point is that he said, “Be Thy will done, NOT MINE.”
It means that he died against his will, and there is no other way to fix this one.

You talk about replacement theology. Christianity is not a replacement theology. The NT completes the Torah.

That’s you saying. Paul said that it is the end of the Law. (Rom. 10:4)

What is your basis of thought that tells you that Jesus is not the Messiah?

The fact that Isaiah tells us that the Messiah is Israel.

Again if you don’t believe the NT why all the questions? Is it that you are searching for a reason to believe?

I believe 20 percent of the NT. The other 80 percent are non-Jewish interpolations. Therefore, not true. Another reason for my questions is that you guys are using a religious Jew that Jesus was, to project unto the world a distorted view of Judaism. And last but not least, you might be right that I may be looking for reasons to believe but you guys don’t seem to be doing a good job.

 

[Daedelus76]

The point is that he said, “Be Thy will done, NOT MINE.”
It means that he died against his will, and there is no other way to fix this one.

Put Biblical inerrancy aside for a moment… put the story of the Garden of Gethsemane aside. You don’t actually HAVE to accept that bit as some kind of literal history to believe that Jesus was the Messiah. You’ll figure it out in time.

COLOR=“Blue”]I believe 20 percent of the NT. The other 80 percent are non-Jewish interpolations. Therefore, not true. Another reason for my questions is that you guys are using a religious Jew that Jesus was, to project unto the world a distorted view of Judaism. And last but not least, you might be right that I may be looking for reasons to believe but you guys don’t seem to be doing a good job.

Here’s the way Christians see it. Especially an Orthodox priest I was listening to… the Old Testament is about one peoples struggle against idolatry of all kinds. In the New Tastement, the Jews of the 1st century encounter the true revelation of God in the Messiah… but they don’t even recognize him, because in the end they are idolatrous to their own religion. “You’re not the messiah we were looking for”. Only a handful of his own people accept him. What Jesus does is actually establishes a new covenant with the Israelites and the whole world… with his own blood as the “Passover” sign.

What actually infuriated the priests and elders at the temple and got them to conspire to kill him; the section of the temple Jesus cleared was for gentiles to pray at:

"And He began to teach and say to them, "Is it not written, “My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations '? But you have made it a den of thieves.” (Mark 11: 17)

Instead, it had been converted into selling animals for sacrifices and money changing, none of which God really cares about in the end. The New Covenant is based on spiritual and inner things, not outward things. The same is true with the way Jesus or Paul taught about the Torah. The real strength of the Torah isn’t in the outward practices and rituals, but the faith behind it.

 

[JMJ_coder]

No, no Greek Mythology, but something in need to be interepreted either metaphorically, or something which happened during a vision or dream.

So what do you think of all the other Jews who aren’t as “enlightened” as you are – those that think that God actually has power to directly intervene in His creation by, say, parting waters, burning a bush without consuming it, etc.? How do you respond to those countless Jews throughout history and those today who actually expect the Messiah to be an individual?

 

[Ben_Masada]

So what do you think of all the other Jews who aren’t as “enlightened” as you are – those that think that God actually has power to directly intervene in His creation by, say, parting waters, burning a bush without consuming it, etc.? How do you respond to those countless Jews throughout history and those today who actually expect the Messiah to be an individual?

**Actually, God has all the power in the world and out of it. But to grant man freewill and then interfere with it would be rather a sign of weakness than power.

About other Jews who still expect an individual Messiah, they are only reminiscences of the slavish mentality of 400 years of slavery in Egypt. When Moses as a Messianic leader went there to liberate the People, they thought he was the Messiah himself and not a Messianic leader who had come to take the Messiah back home.

Regarding bushes burning in the desert and never getting consumed, it’s very common. It’s a visual illusion, which was used by God to speak to Moses in a vision.**

 

[geometer]

God has established the natural laws, which have become the tools by which He governs the Universe. Any going against such laws, even by God Himself, would mean only weakness, for His having been unable to maintain order in the Universe.

God never told you any such thing. You are making it all up. A man is not to stand in judgement of God…

 

[SteveLohr]

The Meaning of Bodily Resurrection
.

God has established the natural laws, which have become the tools by which He governs the Universe. Any going against such laws, even by God Himself, would mean only weakness, for His having been unable to maintain order in the Universe.
Ben

Ben-Assume, arguendo, that this statement is correct. It does not follow that ressurections could not happen. For instance, there may be natural laws that we are unaware of that God used as a mechanism to accomplish the ressurrection. Certainly, mankind is constantly discovering new laws of nature. Newtonian physics gave way to Einsteinian. Now, parts of Einstein’s physics have been called into question. Just because something seems to violate natural laws as we humans understand them, does not mean it does violate those laws.

Regards,

 

[Eucharisted]

The Meaning of Bodily Resurrection

Bodily resurrection is the return to life of someone who has died. It’s impossible for being against two kinds of laws: The first is natural laws. The second is Biblical laws.

God has established the natural laws, which have become the tools by which He governs the Universe. Any going against such laws, even by God Himself, would mean only weakness, for His having been unable to maintain order in the Universe.

Regarding Biblical laws, resurrection would only cause contradictions where Divine inspiration is claimed. Since God is not a God of confusion, resurrection must go and the Scriptures must be upheld.

The Scriptures are only too clear about dying and the impossibility to return. Some of the Biblical passages are: Job 7:9,10; 10:21; 14:12; II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 88:6; 146:4; Proverbs 2:19; Ezekiel 26:20. I am leaving Ecclesiastes out for being almost the whole book about the same issue: Against afterlife.

But then, what happened to Jesus that millions today believe he resurrected? He didn’t. What happened to him was resuscitation. Resurrection was made up much later by Paul, about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. If we read what he said to Timothy in his second Epistle 2:8, he connected the resurrection of Jesus to his own gospel. It means that there was another gospel at the time, which would not mention such a claim. It could only be the gospel of Jesus’ disciples, who at the first indication of resurrection by the women, had considered their report as an ildle tale and nonsense. (Luke 24:11)

Then, we have Luke in Acts 1:1-3, saying that when Jesus started appearing to his disciples, with many convincing evidences that he was alive in flesh and bone, Luke said, “after his passion or suffering,” not after death or resurrection. Therefore, it does not mean at all that Jesus had died and resurrected. True that Luke contradicts himself later, but that’s normal of the NT.

Ben

The Resurrection in Judaism: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=337604

 

[JMJ_coder]

**Actually, God has all the power in the world and out of it. But to grant man freewill and then interfere with it would be rather a sign of weakness than power.

About other Jews who still expect an individual Messiah, they are only reminiscences of the slavish mentality of 400 years of slavery in Egypt. When Moses as a Messianic leader went there to liberate the People, they thought he was the Messiah himself and not a Messianic leader who had come to take the Messiah back home.

Regarding bushes burning in the desert and never getting consumed, it’s very common. It’s a visual illusion, which was used by God to speak to Moses in a vision.**

Is that what’s passing for Judaism in Israel these days?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Ben,

Why would there even be God if there is no afterlife? What would be the point of human existence in trying to do the righteous things, follow God’s plan, and obey His laws? Why would God care about his people if they just live a very short life and then die forever?

 

[Brother2]

Ladies and Gentlemen. Excuse me butting in here. But the Bible is very clear that Lord Jesus rose bodily from the grave. So did Lazarus, he definitely came out of the grave, its well reported.

I know we are into spiritualism here as well. Spiritualists say that the soul lives on…that ghosts come back and haunt…??

But the Bible talks about the Breath of life returning to God who gave it. Hundreds of souls died in the Titanic disaster. The Bible states that the soul that sinneth it shall die.

Many churches 50 years or so ago believed in soul sleep. Lord Jesus said,‘he sleepeth’. the disciples said ‘well if he is sleeping he will do well’. Jesus answered. ‘he is dead’.

Scripture speaks of the dead ‘not knowing anything’, ‘they go down into silence’, ‘they return no more to their house’.
When Lord Jesus returns, the graves will open and the dead in Christ will wake up and live again.

Elijah was taken to heaven, so was Enoch, Moses apparently was resurrected and taken to heaven. Elijah and Moses appeared at the Transfiguration. When Lord Jesus rose from the grave, many saints also came out of their graves and appeared to many.

So it is very interesting what the Bible says when we look closely. Michael.

 

[Ben_Masada]

God never told you any such thing. You are making it all up. A man is not to stand in judgement of God…

**Tell me Geometer, are my words in this thread more mysterious than the many mysteries of the Hebrew Scriptures? How do you think our forefathers wrote the Scriptures so that you have today a Bible to read? Through emanations. What makes you think that I haven’t had those same emanations to understand some of the Scriptural mysteries? That’s how God still tells His People about such things. **

 

[SteveLohr]

**…

Besides, resurrection is against the Scriptures. Since the Scriptures cannot be contradicted, there is no bodily resurrection. You can read the proofs for my premises in Job 9:9,10; 10:21; 14:12; II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 88:6; 146:4; Proverbs 2:19; Ezekiel 26:20. I have left the whole book of Ecclesiastes out because almost the whole book is against a return of the dead.**

Ben-I’ve gone ahead and take a look at the citations you provided. Unfortunately, I don’t believe your references support your claim that there is no resurrection. Below are the passages you cite, along with my comments. All citations are using the NIV version.

Job 9:9-10 ( NIV )
He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.
He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed, miracles that cannot be counted.

I’m not sure how this passage applies to the issue of resurrection.

Job 10:20-21 ( NIV )
Are not my [Job’s] few days almost over? Turn away from me so I can have a moment’s joy
before I go to the place of no return, to the land of gloom and deep shadow.

Job 14:11-12 ( NIV )
As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep.

I believe you have taking these passages out of context. In this passage, Job is speaking to God. Job is not speaking under the inspiration of God, but is arguing with God about his situation. As Weirsbe notes “Early believers like Job did not have the revelation of future life as we now have it in Christ (2 Tim. 1:10). Passages in the Old Testament hint at future resurrection (Pss. 16:9-11; 17:15; Isa. 26:19; Dan. 12:2), but Job did not have any of these books to read and ponder.” (Weirsbe, “Job, ch 14”)

2 Samuel 12:22-28 ( NIV )
He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’
But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”
Then David comforted his wife Bathsheba, and he went to her and lay with her. She gave birth to a son, and they named him Solomon.

Likewise, you appear to have taken this passage out of context. David making any statement about resurrection, but simply making the commonsense observation that his son is dead and that he (David) is unable to change the situation.

Psalms 88:5-7 ( NIV )
O LORD, the God who saves me, day and night I cry out before you.
May my prayer come before you; turn your ear to my cry.
For my soul is full of trouble and my life draws near the grave.
I am counted among those who go down to the pit; I am like a man without strength.
I am set apart with the dead, like the slain who lie in the grave, whom you remember no more, who are cut off from your care.
You have put me in the lowest pit, in the darkest depths.
Your wrath lies heavily upon me; you have overwhelmed me with all your waves. Selah
You have taken from me my closest friends and have made me repulsive to them. I am confined and cannot escape;
my eyes are dim with grief. I call to you, O LORD, every day; I spread out my hands to you.
Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do those who are dead rise up and praise you? Selah
Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction?
Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?
But I cry to you for help, O LORD; in the morning my prayer comes before you.
Why, O LORD, do you reject me

This passage does not make any definitive statement on the subject of resurrection. In this, the Psalmist is describing someone who is dead, or nearly so, but yet has hope. See v. 10-13. As an aside, some commentators state that this passage may be symbolic of Christ’s experiences between his crucifixion and resurrection.

Proverbs 2:16-20 ( NIV )
**It will save you also from the adulteress, from the wayward wife with her seductive words,
who has left the partner of her youth and ignored the covenant she made before God.
For her house leads down to death and her paths to the spirits of the dead.
None who go to her return or attain the paths of life.
Thus you will walk in the ways of good men and keep to the paths of the righteous. **

I believe you have also taken this passage out of context. It does not address the issue of the possiblity of resurrection, but the wages of sin.

Ezekiel 26:19-21 ( NIV )
**“This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you,
then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place in the land of the living.
I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD.” **

I also believe you have taken this passage out of context. Here, God is talking about the city of Tyre. He is not speaking either about individual resurrection, but the wrath he will visit upon the city and its inhabitants.

Regards,

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben-I’ve gone ahead and take a look at the citations you provided. Unfortunately, I don’t believe your references support your claim that there is no resurrection. Below are the passages you cite, along with my comments. All citations are using the NIV version.

Job 9:9-10 ( NIV )
He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the south. He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed, miracles that cannot be counted. I’m not sure how this passage applies to the issue of resurrection.

Job 10:20-21 ( NIV )
Are not my [Job’s] few days almost over? Turn away from me so I can have a moment’s joy before I go to the place of no return, to the land of gloom and deep shadow

That’s clear. There is no return from death.

Job 14:11-12 ( NIV )
]As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep.

That’s clear. There is no awake from the sleep of death.

I believe you have taking these passages out of context. In this passage, Job is speaking to God. Job is not speaking under the inspiration of God, but is arguing with God about his situation. As Weirsbe notes “Early believers like Job did not have the revelation of future life as we now have it in Christ (2 Tim. 1:10). Passages in the Old Testament hint at future resurrection (Pss. 16:9-11; 17:15; Isa. 26:19; Dan. 12:2), but Job did not have any of these books to read and ponder.” (Weirsbe, “Job, ch 14”)

If Job in 14:12 is not talking about the permanence of death, I am not going even to criticise your faith. You have all the right in the world to believe the impossible. That’s how I understand the quotation.

2 Samuel 12:22-28 ( NIV )
He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’
But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” Then David comforted his wife Bathsheba, and he went to her and lay with her. She gave birth to a son, and they named him Solomon.

Can I bring him back from death again? Obviously not. I will go to him, but he will never return to me. That’s the key for the permanence of death.

Likewise, you appear to have taken this passage out of context. David making any statement about resurrection, but simply making the commonsense observation that his son is dead and that he (David) is unable to change the situation.

David expressed his Jewish belief that there is no coming back from death, but of the living going to it rather.

Psalms 88:5-7 ( NIV )
I am like a man without strength.
I am set apart with the dead, like the slain who lie in the grave, whom you remember no more, who are cut off from your care.
my eyes are dim with grief. I call to you, O LORD, every day; I spread out my hands to you.
Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do those who are dead rise up and praise you? Selah
Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction?
Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?
But I cry to you for help, O LORD; in the morning my prayer comes before you.
Why, O LORD, do you reject me

The message says that even from God, all the connection is severed with death.

Proverbs 2:16-20 ( NIV )
For her house leads down to death and her paths to the spirits of the dead.
None who go to her return or attain the paths of life. Thus you will walk in the ways of good men and keep to the paths of the righteous.

The message is that there is no return from death.

Ezekiel 26:19-21 ( NIV )
“This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place in the land of the living.
I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD.”

**As you can see, there is no return from the pit of death. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben,

Why would there even be God if there is no afterlife? What would be the point of human existence in trying to do the righteous things, follow God’s plan, and obey His laws? Why would God care about his people if they just live a very short life and then die forever?

Was there God when there was no life on earth? Obviously, because God is Eternal. Therefore, it makes no difference whether there is an afterlife or not. There will always be God. Your question is based on the fact that you are connecting your belief in God with your condition of reward. You are acting like the guy who was suggested to serve God, and he asked, “What’s in there for me?” That’s conditional faith, and worthy menstrual rags.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Here’s the way Christians see it. Especially an Orthodox priest I was listening to… the Old Testament is about one peoples struggle against idolatry of all kinds. In the New Tastement, the Jews of the 1st century encounter the true revelation of God in the Messiah… but they don’t even recognize him, because in the end they are idolatrous to their own religion. “You’re not the messiah we were looking for”. Only a handful of his own people accept him. What Jesus does is actually establishes a new covenant with the Israelites and the whole world… with his own blood as the “Passover” sign.

.

That Passover you are talking about did not happened.
The Passover in that last year of the life of Jesus fell on the Sabbath, and the Passover Feast on Friday evening. Jesus was already in the tomb. Why don’t you read the thread,
“The Missing Passover?” That Last Supper the gospel writers claim Jesus celebrated with his disciples Thursday night, it was not Passover but a regular supper.