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Ben_Masada
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Yes, I would.
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Ben_Masada
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Ben Masada;5278648:
**That’s exactly what makes of Judaism a different religion from all others. Our Faith is not conditional. We serve God because it’s a Jewish thing to serve God, and not with our minds on afterlife or any kind of reward after death. Talking about conditional faith, it reminds me of Paul, when he said that if the dead won’t resurrect, let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die. (I Cor. 15:32) That’s what I call conditional faith. And you forgive me the analogy, it’s worthy menstrual rags. **Ditto.
But anyways, here’s a tangential question (at least it was about 10 pages ago):
If there is no supernaturality in this world and no afterlife – what’s the point of Judaism (or any religion at all)?
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Ben_Masada
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I was visited by two missionaries young men in bicycles. I welcomed them in, and we started a hot debate. As they talked, my eyes were drawn to a very thick book one of them was using. It was written on the cover: “The Holy Bible.” I couldn’t hold my curiosity and asked what kind of Bible was it. He said, Oh, yes! That’s the complete Bible with all the three testaments: The Old, the New and the Last. He was referring to the Book of Mormon for the Last Testament. The Saints of the Most High must have the complete Bible. What would you say to this? What about the others who have only two testaments and us with only one? Would you call this racism? If you are not a Mormon, forget about being one of the Saints of the Most High.You just like throwing that word around – anti-Semitic. If all else fails, accuse them of being a racist.
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Ben_Masada
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JMJ_coder
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Again here we go again. As I pointed out earlier, it is historically a Jewish thing to rebel against God (not to serve Him) and have to be dragged back to His favor (of course, that’s a general synopsis of every person - Jew and Gentile - falling into sin and then repenting).
And may I remind you that for the afterlife has also historically been a belief of Judaism - though I grant that a physical resurrection was a contested topic. The Old Testament makes reference to Sheol (the Abode of the Dead). And there was also a strong incentive to serve God to gain a “wealth and health” state in this life. Being economically prosperous was (and as I can tell still is) a sign of divine favor as was good health and many children, while being sick and poor was a sign of being a sinner.
I also think you misunderstand Paul. He wasn’t advocating being religious simply because we fear hell. He was pointing to the fact that if there is no resurrection, and therefore no resurrection of Jesus – then our faith is in vain for we are still in our sins. And furthermore, if there is no resurrection, no afterlife then that shows there is no God and therefore no point to believing in something that doesn’t matter – thus party down.
I do wonder – what kind of being do you worship? Your vision of God is closer to a Greek mythology than anything you accuse Christians of worshiping. For your vision of God is one who, like Zeus and his ilk, is a petty being who condemns man to suffering on earth with no hope and expects unabated worship – and for what?! What kind of a deity creates man in a suffering world only to snuff them out a few decades later. That is not a loving deity, it is not the One True God.
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JMJ_coder
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I’ve never had Mormons come to my door – I usually get Jehovah’s Witnesses.
There is a difference. Catholics hold that public revelation came to an end with the death of the Apostle Saint John. Judaism is still awaiting more revelations from God – in the form of a new prophet or the Messiah.
Also, I don’t consider this racism – the Mormons are erroneous in their beliefs (to learn why, there are plenty of threads here that discuss it), but that isn’t racism.
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Lapell
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They may be learned at least as well as you are, but differently… there are many mansions in Judaism, you know!
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Lapell
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Most learned people still are humble enough to consider themselves not arrived yet. It seems that you have surpassed them all, Ben… at least when pride is concerned!
As for wisdom, Job would probably look at you and say: “Of course wisdom will die with you!”
As for wisdom, Job would probably look at you and say: “Of course wisdom will die with you!”
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Ben_Masada
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Ben_Masada
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So, what is racism, to lock Jews in ghethoes because they were not considered humans but animals, or because they were considered an inferior race? If this was not racism, I give up. I don’t know what racism is.I’ve never had Mormons come to my door – I usually get Jehovah’s Witnesses.
There is a difference. Catholics hold that public revelation came to an end with the death of the Apostle Saint John. Judaism is still awaiting more revelations from God – in the form of a new prophet or the Messiah.
Also, I don’t consider this racism – the Mormons are erroneous in their beliefs (to learn why, there are plenty of threads here that discuss it), but that isn’t racism.
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Ben_Masada
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Instead of condemning my wisdom, why don’t you refute it with facts that make sense? We could learn much more from each other.
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sambos671
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This seems insulting to me.
It seems to me that a people being led out of Egypt by an old man were kind of backwards don’t you? Thank God that he uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. For a backwards people trained in superstition with out the wonders shown at Egypt or through out most of Ancient Israel’s history that the Greeks were quite advanced. They created the Parthenon they even assertained by logic that there could only be one God (Plato, Stoics, etc) where the Jews needed direct revelation. Hmmm…
Also this I don’t understand.
Why obey God at all. If the grave was the end result why serve God and not ourselves? I mean there’s no accountability! If God told me that when I die that’s it and that I must follow his Law. Unless God were to tell me that I would physically suffer for being disobedient I would say “Yeah. Suuuuuure.” I’d follow the eat drink and be merry philosophy. But maybe being a backward goy you’d expect that from me. However, that is not how history plays out Many evil people prosper. Why? I think from a Jewish philosophy its because God doesn’t care about the goyim. He’s really only conserned with Jewish people because, well… not really sure but he does and he’s made promises. As far as the goyim they can do whatever they want. Doesn’t really matter.
Is this what you’re telling us?
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Ben_Masada
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**Do you really understand your question above? “Why obey God if the grave is the end result? Why obey God if there is no accountability? Why obey God if when you die, that’s it?” That’s what I call conditional faith. It means that you obey God if there is something in there for you. This kind of conditional obedience to God is comparable only to mentrual rags.
We Jews obey God’s Law because this is a Jewish thing to do, even if there is nothing after we die. This is love of God without preconditions. God so cares about the goyim that He has pledged Israel to guarantee the salvation of the world. Read Jeremiah 31:35-37. If Israel ever ceases as a People before the Lord, the natural laws will go out of control. And you should know what this means: Universal catastrophes which will threaten the existence of Mankind. **
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sambos671
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Yeah, I understand my question. I understand about conditional love. And using natural catastrophies seems conditional. I guess if I were to believe as you do I would ensure there were Jews around to prevent the catastrophies but pretty much do whatever I wanted. Since, I’m a goy what salvation is there for me in your belief system? To love God? By adhereing to his laws which can’t ever be fully realize because I would end up breaking at least one. And its not fun to follow the laws anyway. Sure I got a handle on the 10 commandments but what about the rest of it. The dietary laws? and some laws I can’t even do today because of PETA! Can you imagine trying to perform a holocaust today? (or an offering not the event). I mean really do something just because your Jewish? Thats it? Really? I will submit myself to the curses if I don’t follow the law that otherwise I might avoid if I never were Jewish? Really?
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Lapell
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Ben, when it comes to Judaism and to the Tanakh according to Judaism, I would agree.
But when it comes to Christianity, how the Church began, and even how the Church interprets the Tanakh, in the good order of things YOU should be the one bringing your proofs, where you take your affirmations and so-called “facts” from, and your sources. Otherwise you act like a pirate illegetimately hijacking our ship, not really something in accordance with God’s Commandments, really!!!
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Lapell
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Up to now you mainly brang up free speculations without telling us what made you say and maybe believe the things you brought up. You want to rule the debate, but even the starter must bend him to some rules himself. O.K.?
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Stouts989
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When reading through this thread this passage in Luke came to mind…
Luke 16:19-31
19"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20"And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24"And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25"But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26’And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27"And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house–
28for I have five brothers–in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29"But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30"But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
31**“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”**
Luke 16:19-31
19"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20"And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24"And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25"But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26’And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27"And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house–
28for I have five brothers–in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29"But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30"But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
31**“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”**
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Stouts989
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Another from John
John 5 :45-47
45"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
47"But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
Side Note: I alway get a kick out of people who say Jesus was only a prophet. Who did Jesus say he was?..nothing short of God in Flesh! (John 8:58 - quoting Exodus 3:14)
John 5 :45-47
45"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
47"But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
Side Note: I alway get a kick out of people who say Jesus was only a prophet. Who did Jesus say he was?..nothing short of God in Flesh! (John 8:58 - quoting Exodus 3:14)
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Ben_Masada
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**Not the Jesus of Nazareth. For a Jew to say that he was nothing short of God in flesh, he must have lost his mind first; and I am sure Jesus was not crazy.
But anyways, here is one from Luke.
Luke 16:29-31.
To the rich man in hell asking Abraham to send someone to warn his family in order not to fall in the same place, Jesus, who is the one telling the parable, says that they have Moses. That they listen to Moses, otherwise their fate will be the same. As you can see, he didn’t point to himself as the one but to Moses. The Law. I get a kick out of things like that too. **
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Ben_Masada
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**And the moral of this parable is in the last verse (31) Jesus was right about the stiffneckedness of people to listen to Moses. Even claiming that Jesus rose from the dead, and knowing that he had come to confirm Moses down to the Letter, according to Matthew 5:19, they still won’t listen to Moses. **
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