**I always give you Scriptural evidences for whatever I say but you do not agree because you want that Judaism be interpreted according to your preconceived Christian notions and not according to Judaism. Jesus was a Jewish man. You cannot expect that I should look at him as if he was a Christian or Hellenistic demigod. Sometimes Logic helps to think straight. **Ben, when it comes to Judaism and to the Tanakh according to Judaism, I would agree.
But when it comes to Christianity, how the Church began, and even how the Church interprets the Tanakh, in the good order of things YOU should be the one bringing your proofs, where you take your affirmations and so-called “facts” from, and your sources. Otherwise you act like a pirate illegetimately hijacking our ship, not really something in accordance with God’s Commandments, really!!!
Yeah, I understand my question. I understand about conditional love. And using natural catastrophies seems conditional. I guess if I were to believe as you do I would ensure there were Jews around to prevent the catastrophies but pretty much do whatever I wanted. Since I am a goy what salvation is there for me in your belief system?
**Do you see what I mean? Always after what there is in there for you. You would never be accepted within the ranks of Judaism with such idea even if you cried tears of blood. **
To love God? By adhereing to his laws which can’t ever be fully realize because I would end up breaking at least one.
What’s the big deal about breaking the Law? As long as we don’t reject the Law, God knows that to break the Law is human. We pay for the consequences of having broken the Law and we are back on the saddle again. This of abandoning the Law because one can’t follow it 100 percent is Pauline rhetoric of no value.
And its not fun to follow the laws anyway.
**For us is everything short of complete happiness. I understand you, as you talk as a Gentile. You wouldn’t be able to understand these things. **
Sure I got a handle on the 10 commandments but what about the rest of it. The dietary laws? and some laws I can’t even do today because of PETA! Can you imagine trying to perform a holocaust today? (or an offering not the event). I mean really do something just because your Jewish? Thats it? Really? I will submit myself to the curses if I don’t follow the law that otherwise I might avoid if I never were Jewish? Really?
Yes, that’s it, really. And guess what? You don’t need to follow anything of the above. You have the Noahite laws. Stick to them and you will be out of trouble. We have no interest that Gentiles become Jewish.
sambos671;5305074:
To love God? By adhereing to his laws which can’t ever be fully realize because I would end up breaking at least one.Yeah, I understand my question. I understand about conditional love. And using natural catastrophies seems conditional. I guess if I were to believe as you do I would ensure there were Jews around to prevent the catastrophies but pretty much do whatever I wanted. Since I am a goy what salvation is there for me in your belief system?
**Do you see what I mean? Always after what there is in there for you. You would never be accepted within the ranks of Judaism with such idea even if you cried tears of blood. **
What’s the big deal about breaking the Law? As long as we don’t reject the Law, God knows that to break the Law is human. We pay for the consequences of having broken the Law and we are back on the saddle again. This of abandoning the Law because one can’t follow it 100 percent is Pauline rhetoric of no value.
And its not fun to follow the laws anyway.
**For us is everything short of complete happiness. I understand you, as you talk as a Gentile. You wouldn’t be able to understand these things. **
Sure I got a handle on the 10 commandments but what about the rest of it. The dietary laws? and some laws I can’t even do today because of PETA! Can you imagine trying to perform a holocaust today? (or an offering not the event). I mean really do something just because your Jewish? Thats it? Really? I will submit myself to the curses if I don’t follow the law that otherwise I might avoid if I never were Jewish? Really?
Yes, that’s it, really. And guess what? You don’t need to follow anything of the above. You have the Noahite laws. Stick to them and you will be out of trouble. We have no interest that Gentiles become Jewish.
Ben Massada (son of Massada? Which I don’t understand since they committed suicide which for a Christian is an ultimate sin. How about for Jews? Well since you don’t believe in an eternity I guess then you may feel its noble and honorable to commit suicide in certian circumstances like the Japanese. I’m just thinking this out as I go through this) I was having a bit of fun with you based on your point of view. I was putting a perspective that is a common human perspective that is not Jewish. If no eternal life what accountability is there? Temporal. Yet we see the world and find that not all evil people are temporally punished. Is there justice in this? Can God truelly be considered just if this is the case? Its seems you make my point for me in this phrase:
There is no salvation for the goyim in Judaism apart from following the very basic Noahic laws. Which very few break. I had always believed that the Jews were chosen to be a light to the world to include goyim to show them God (G-d if your jewish). However, it seems that Jews could basically care less about the goyim unless they directly influence the Jews. What kind of Priesthood is that?Yes, that’s it, really. And guess what? You don’t need to follow anything of the above. You have the Noahite laws. Stick to them and you will be out of trouble. We have no interest that Gentiles become Jewish
A few things I would like to clear up. When you speak of Salvation what do you mean? Obviously its not the Christian Paradigm so we are not speaking of the same thing when we use this word.
I do acknowledge David expression about following the Law simply because he loves God but what about when he says of his dead new born son that he is going to him. And He rejoices for this future even. Resurrection?
Next Jesus spoke with the group of scholars that you seem to agree with here. The Saducees. They brought up this thing about the ressurection. Jesus told them that they misunderstood that the resurrection was not figurative or allegorical but literal here:
."23That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24"Teacher," they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27Finally, the woman died. 28Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
29Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32’I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[a]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living
Jesus clearly believed in a physical resurrection from the dead. Each of the Gospel accounts includes a physical resurrection of Jesus ie no body in the tomb. Clearly this isn’t just a Pauline interpretation.
Ben Masada;5307910:
Yet we see the world and find that not all evil people are temporally punished. Is there justice in this? Can God truelly be considered just if this is the case?Ben Massada (son of Massada? Which I don’t understand since they committed suicide which for a Christian is an ultimate sin. How about for Jews? Well since you don’t believe in an eternity I guess then you may feel its noble and honorable to commit suicide in certian circumstances like the Japanese.
**When I Jew dies, he turns back to the eternity of before he was born. The eternity of non-existence. I wonder why worry about going back to non-existence when we never worry about the non-existence of before life. Now, with regards to suicide, our token of disapproval is to bury the body of the Jew who committs suicide outside the wall of a Jewish graveyard in an area reserved for those who take their lives with their own hands. **
Once Jesus told a parable about a contractor of services, who early in the morning went out looking for workers and contracted some. Three hours later, he went out again and contracted some more. At the end of the day he paid all of them the same salary. Those who had been contracted early in the morning were upset for that lack of justice. Then the contractor asked them if he had paid them with any more or less than what he had agreed to pay. So, why do you care about what I do with my money? As you can see, the injustice was not with the contractor but with the contracted. Now, for you Sambos, why do you care if some in this world are not punished and others are? Just leave everything up to God for He knows what He does. The injustice here resides in the envy or jealousy of the one who looks at evil people not being punished enough.
A few things I would like to clear up. When you speak of Salvation what do you mean? Obviously its not the Christian Paradigm so we are not speaking of the same thing when we use this word.
**No, we are not. There are two kinds of salvation. One is individual salvation which comes as a result of obedience to the Law. This is the responsibility of everyone of us. The second kind of salvation is the collective salvation, whose pledge of guarantee is found in Israel, who, if she ever ceases as a People before the Lord, the natural laws will go out of control, which will mean universal catastrophes to even finish with Mankind. That’s in Jeremiah 31:35-37. Do you remember why the Flood happened? Because man had corrupted the earth. At the end of the Flood, God made a Covenant with all Mankind through Noah by promising that He would never allow another catastrophe of that size to hit Mankind. (Gen. 8:21) What about if man corrupted the earth again? The pledge to guarantee God’s promise was about to rise from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: Israel. That’s what Jeremiah understood, and that’s what Jesus meant when he told the Samaritan woman that salvation is from the Jews. (John 4:22) **
I do acknowledge David expression about following the Law simply because he loves God but what about when he says of his dead new born son that he is going to him. And He rejoices for this future even. Resurrection?
David did not rejoice about resurrection in the case of his newborn son. The opposite is true; he said that his son would never return to life. He would rather go to him.
Next Jesus spoke with the group of scholars that you seem to agree with here. The Saducees. They brought up this thing about the ressurection. Jesus told them that they misunderstood that the resurrection was not figurative or allegorical but literal here:
Jesus clearly believed in a physical resurrection from the dead. Each of the Gospel accounts includes a physical resurrection of Jesus ie no body in the tomb. Clearly this isn’t just a Pauline interpretation.
**That idea above about resurrection is not from Jesus, but from Paul. The gospels were written from 50 to 70 years after Jesus had been gone. The writers had been for some time disciples of Paul’s. **
…Who said in God’s Name that there would be a prophet like him, to listen to that prophet, otherwise there will be serious consequences…**Not the Jesus of Nazareth. For a Jew to say that he was nothing short of God in flesh, he must have lost his mind first; and I am sure Jesus was not crazy.
But anyways, here is one from Luke.
Luke 16:29-31.
To the rich man in hell asking Abraham to send someone to warn his family in order not to fall in the same place, Jesus, who is the one telling the parable, says that they have Moses. That they listen to Moses, otherwise their fate will be the same. As you can see, he didn’t point to himself as the one but to Moses. The Law. I get a kick out of things like that too. **
Are you saying that we are from eternity past like a drop of water which is from devine sea. That we are then brought into existance from that drop into this world and when we die we go back? I’m being allegorical but I want to understand what it is you actually mean.When I Jew dies, he turns back to the eternity of before he was born. The eternity of non-existence. I wonder why worry about going back to non-existence when we never worry about the non-existence of before life. Now, with regards to suicide, our token of disapproval is to bury the body of the Jew who committs suicide outside the wall of a Jewish graveyard in an area reserved for those who take their lives with their own hands
This is actually a good point however from the perspective of law non compliance with out consequences (positive and negative) seems pointless. So in the example above would it not be better to say you are contracted to do work (law) and if you do none you don’t get paid. Here it seems that everyone does what they are supposed to do no matter what time during the day. What if the Contractor hired someone in the morning who picked their nose all day long and didn’t accomplish anything?Once Jesus told a parable about a contractor of services, who early in the morning went out looking for workers and contracted some. Three hours later, he went out again and contracted some more. At the end of the day he paid all of them the same salary. Those who had been contracted early in the morning were upset for that lack of justice. Then the contractor asked them if he had paid them with any more or less than what he had agreed to pay. So, why do you care about what I do with my money? As you can see, the injustice was not with the contractor but with the contracted. Now, for you Sambos, why do you care if some in this world are not punished and others are? Just leave everything up to God for He knows what He does. The injustice here resides in the envy or jealousy of the one who looks at evil people not being punished enough.
I’m still not sure what you mean by individual salvation by obedience to the law. Is it just the reward at having pleased God voluntarily (pat yourself on the back for having done so) or something else. What the end game to personal salvation. Is it to be more like God? What? The Natural law I understand better what your saying. Your saying if there aren’t Jews following the law the natural order of the cosmos will unravel and it will cease to exist. Yet it contradicts what God was saying to Noah about not bringing disaster to man again.No, we are not. There are two kinds of salvation. One is individual salvation which comes as a result of obedience to the Law. This is the responsibility of everyone of us. The second kind of salvation is the collective salvation, whose pledge of guarantee is found in Israel, who, if she ever ceases as a People before the Lord, the natural laws will go out of control, which will mean universal catastrophes to even finish with Mankind. That’s in Jeremiah 31:35-37. Do you remember why the Flood happened? Because man had corrupted the earth. At the end of the Flood, God made a Covenant with all Mankind through Noah by promising that He would never allow another catastrophe of that size to hit Mankind. (Gen. 8:21) What about if man corrupted the earth again? The pledge to guarantee God’s promise was about to rise from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: Israel. That’s what Jeremiah understood, and that’s what Jesus meant when he told the Samaritan woman that salvation is from the Jews. (John 4:22)
Your right but still their is a view of an after life not an end to existance. Unless your that drop of water I was talking about.David did not rejoice about resurrection in the case of his newborn son. The opposite is true; he said that his son would never return to life. He would rather go to him.
This is true and there were diffferent writers of the NT. From different regions with different perspectives. It seems unlikely that they all sat at the shul of Paul. Paul himself died in 65 AD And Christianity extended beyond his personal influence. In acts Paul was influenced by Ananias Acts 9:9-19 and spent time learning faith already explained by Ananias and also he spent time with Barnabas.David did not rejoice about resurrection in the case of his newborn son. The opposite is true; he said that his son would never return to life. He would rather go to him.
Act 10 seems to show influence of Peter of christian views to dietary laws. Not Paul. So specific views of christianity were already in place Before Paul. Now if you claim that the gospels are in effect created to reflect Paul’s specific religeous views then nothing in them must be accepted as factual. Even the quotes of Jesus must be dismissed. So it seems disingenuous to say that Paul is the acutal founder of modern Christian consepts and forced a forgery of an account of Jesus life by four different authors from different locations of the Roman Empire yet assertain Jewish views in line with yours that Jesus would have said. In fact, Jesus would not have been reflected to say anything accurate with what he taught if your correct and this includes the ressurection.25Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, 26and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
**Some faithfully transmitted errors really vivdly persist. "It was not Jesus’ idea, it was Paul’s’’… Really, the hope in the resurrection of the dead was not just Paul’s, but also that of the Pharisees of his time and even before! **]That idea above about resurrection is not from Jesus, but from Paul. The gospels were written from 50 to 70 years after Jesus had been gone. The writers had been for some time disciples of Paul.
**Moses said to the People on behalf of Joshua. Joshua was that Prophet expected to be like Moses. Moses needed to say that, so that the People would endorse the anointing of Joshua with the same authority Moses enjoyed.(Deut. 18) **…Who said in God’s Name that there would be a prophet like him, to listen to that prophet, otherwise there will be serious consequences…
And though Paul was their outstanding scholar at the time, that did not make Paul their pope. Now tell me, Ben, or other Jews watching this: have High Priests always been the one most outstanding scholar, the one surpassing all others in knowledge of the Torah and related subjects? Please answer me!
Are you saying that we are from eternity past like a drop of water which is from devine sea. That we are then brought into existance from that drop into this world and when we die we go back? I’m being allegorical but I want to understand what it is you actually mean.
No Sambos, I am saying that we come from nothing, live whatever span of life we manage to live, and return to the nothingness we came from.
This is actually a good point however from the perspective of law non compliance with out consequences (positive and negative) seems pointless.
Do you know why it seems pointless? Because you still have your mind on the reward of an afterlife.
So in the example above would it not be better to say you are contracted to do work (law) and if you do none you don’t get paid.
Sambos, allow me to say that your faith needs to evolve. Why? Because you still need an incentive based or reward in order to serve God. Your mind is still not equipped with the Jewish tools that change nothing if there is no afterlife.
Here it seems that everyone does what they are supposed to do no matter what time during the day. What if the Contractor hired someone in the morning who picked their nose all day long and didn’t accomplish anything?
See what I mean? What do you care if the nose picker does nothing all day long, since the Contractor won’t be using your salary to pay him? You remind me that the happiness of the Loto winner is not on the fact that he won the price itself, but that he was the only one to win.
I’m still not sure what you mean by individual salvation by obedience to the law. Is it just the reward at having pleased God voluntarily (pat yourself on the back for having done so) or something else.
No, that’s not what I mean. When I say that personal salvation resides in the obedience of the Law, is that you are saved from the consequences of the law of cause and effect when you obey it. Think of someone in jail. Why aren’t you there with him? Because you are obedient to the Law. The Law has no power on you.
What the end game to personal salvation. Is it to be more like God? What?
Freedom. To live without fear. Well, to be like God? Well, if you are being relative in your question, it could be.
The Natural law I understand better what your saying. Your saying if there aren’t Jews following the law the natural order of the cosmos will unravel and it will cease to exist. Yet it contradicts what God was saying to Noah about not bringing disaster to man again.
**That’s not really what I am saying. Jeremiah is quite clear about this. If Israel, (the Jewish People, not the State) ceases as a People bofore the Lord forever, then the natural laws will go berserk. I mean, they will cease to function properly. Space Physicists speak of catastrophes of universal consequences if this ever happen. However, we have the hope tht Jeremiah’s prophecy will prove accurate. (Jere. 31:35-37) **
.Now if you claim that the gospels are in effect created to reflect Paul’s specific religeous views then nothing in them must be accepted as factual. Even the quotes of Jesus must be dismissed. So it seems disingenuous to say that Paul is the acutal founder of modern Christian consepts and forced a forgery of an account of Jesus life by four different authors from different locations of the Roman Empire yet assertain Jewish views in line with yours that Jesus would have said. In fact, Jesus would not have been reflected to say anything accurate with what he taught if your correct and this includes the ressurection.
Sambos, Jesus for Paul was only someone he needed to personify his Christology. The entity Christ, he had already well deliniated in his mind, which he conceived in the Greek Diaspora of Tarsus where he was born. Tarsus was famous for its Plantonic Stoic University, and like all Hellenistic Jews, his well-to-do parents must have paid his Hellenistic education in a place where he conceived the idea that he could fulfill the Platonic dream of a city governed by King Philosophers, by building a society of people with no need of laws to live ethically. As he failed like Plato, he went ahead and founded Christianity by taking Jesus to personify his Christology. Then, while he took care of the Christ Theology, his disciples tried to build what they could of Jesus.
So from your nihilistic perspective. Life is only as we know it. And the ultimate part and indeed the purpose of being here is “loving” God. And then we die and thats it? Ok. If I were to buy into this then I would have to ask my self what about the character of God? Why does he create a humanity to love him? Is it for egocentric purposes? Are we massaging his ego? Also I would have to think that God must be to a certain point be unjust. Not to me. But to those who are born and raised in cultures that do not have this opportunity of “loving” God. Also the fact that the fate of people are just what people make for themselves. But as the poet said “no man is an island unto himself” what “heaven” or “hell” we make obviously affects those around us. And through no fault of their own or their lack of ability in pleasing God they lived tortured lives and all they know is destroyed. So in some sence God is diestic ( or could care less about the plight of people that aren’t his). No justice. Unless you’re view of God exludes justice in the sence that he is beyond justice. Which makes God amoral. And in my experience with people who are amoral is that in reality they are what humans view as evil. Is God then evil?No Sambos, I am saying that we come from nothing, live whatever span of life we manage to live, and return to the nothingness we came from.
You know in the christian perspective the Afterlife is not just about reward. Its about Justice. The final Judgement where God is shown to be just and the evil a payed evil and the righteous are payed righteousness. Personally, in your nihilistic point of view I would be guilt free about anything I did. Now I’m not going to the exteme and speaking of “living it up” for myself and walking over people. But sin. If I sinned my only regrete would not to have pleased God in that moment but after that moment passed there would be no guilt. My few failures would be guilt free and the effects on other people would not really be my business. “Let God sort it out” would be my motto.Do you know why it seems pointless? Because you still have your mind on the reward of an afterlife.
I agree with you. My faith needs to evolve. I personally don’t need an incentive to serve God. I do it because I love him. However, I believe he is not God if he is not just. How can I love a God who is not just and deals with his creation Justly. It seems that what your saying demeans humanity and makes us little more than rational dogs. We’ve been reduced to God’s pets. The good dog does its masters will the bad ones don’t and c’est la vie. Yet reading the Genesis account I see nobility in man. God created man in his image. In the likeness of God he created them male and female. God breathed life into the man. Ruach. In the Ancient text referring to the Spirit of God or wind or breath. Its the eternal aspect of God that is also breathed into man. There has to be something more to man than the animals. God did not breath life into them yet they live. God breathed into man life and man became a living being. I believe its reflective of eternal existance. Man is noble because he is made in the image of God and lives because of Gods breath with is eternal as God himself is eternal.Sambos, allow me to say that your faith needs to evolve. Why? Because you still need an incentive based or reward in order to serve God. Your mind is still not equipped with the Jewish tools that change nothing if there is no afterlife.
Justice. A reflection of God’s character. Is why I care.See what I mean? What do you care if the nose picker does nothing all day long, since the Contractor won’t be using your salary to pay him? You remind me that the happiness of the Loto winner is not on the fact that he won the price itself, but that he was the only one to win.
Ok but in application there are those who obey the law and are still in Jail. I suggest that this happens with God’s law. That there are those who obey but suffer the penalties for not following God’s law.No, that’s not what I mean. When I say that personal salvation resides in the obedience of the Law, is that you are saved from the consequences of the law of cause and effect when you obey it. Think of someone in jail. Why aren’t you there with him? Because you are obedient to the Law. The Law has no power on you.
though I disagree with you on this analysis it certainly is an accusation that can be leveleda at Philo. Paul may have received the training that you mention but He started Jewish. Note that the argument still remains that if Paul altered the "real"Jesus that there is no quote of Jesus that you can claim is his from the Gospels.Sambos, Jesus for Paul was only someone he needed to personify his Christology. The entity Christ, he had already well deliniated in his mind, which he conceived in the Greek Diaspora of Tarsus where he was born. Tarsus was famous for its Plantonic Stoic University, and like all Hellenistic Jews, his well-to-do parents must have paid his Hellenistic education in a place where he conceived the idea that he could fulfill the Platonic dream of a city governed by King Philosophers, by building a society of people with no need of laws to live ethically. As he failed like Plato, he went ahead and founded Christianity by taking Jesus to personify his Christology. Then, while he took care of the Christ Theology, his disciples tried to build what they could of Jesus.
So from your nihilistic perspective. Life is only as we know it. And the ultimate part and indeed the purpose of being here is “loving” God. And then we die and thats it? Ok.
Yes Sambos, whatelse did you want? Eternal life in Heaven? Nobody is born to live forever, and Heaven is only a state of mind. You didn’t have anything before you were born; why should you now demand something after you die?
If I were to buy into this then I would have to ask my self what about the character of God? Why does he create a humanity to love him? Is it for egocentric purposes? Are we massaging his ego? Also I would have to think that God must be to a certain point be unjust. Not to me. But to those who are born and raised in cultures that do not have this opportunity of “loving” God.
Why should you question the character of the Contractor? Because He won’t pay you more than the life He has given you to live? God created Humanity so that each of us live his span of life the best he can. All your questions above about God are based on anthropomorphism. We cannot compare God with man. So, you would think
that God is unjust. Why Sambos, because He won’t pay you more than others who served less? Listen Sambos, open your NT on that parable of Jesus about the contractor and the labours. Read it a few times and meditate on it. You are behaving exactly like those who were hired in the first hours of the morning and got upset that the Boss paid everyone the same salary. Believe me, I love that parable. Jesus was never more inspired.
Also the fact that the fate of people are just what people make for themselves.
Baruch HaShem! Thanks God! It means we have freewill. What we plant is exactly what we will harvest. No more no less. That’s the law of cause and effect.
So in some sence God is diestic ( or could care less about the plight of people that aren’t his). No justice. Unless you’re view of God exludes justice in the sence that he is beyond justice. Which makes God amoral. And in my experience with people who are amoral is that in reality they are what humans view as evil. Is God then evil?
What are you talking about! God could care less about us all? Doesn’t the sun shine everywhere? Doesn’t rain fall over all? Doesn’t the air blows into the nose of everyone on earth? Linsten my friend, you are not being fair to accuse God with being unjust. If God is evil? No, Sambos, evil does not exist. Evil is made as we ill-use our freewill.
You know in the christian perspective the Afterlife is not just about reward. Its about Justice. The final Judgement where God is shown to be just and the evil a payed evil and the righteous are payed righteousness.
**Here’s again the labourer charging the Boss with being unjust with his money, or the clay questioning the Artist why don’t you make me this or that way. Why do you care if God is just or unjust? Does He owe you anything? He has given you this life to live. What gives you the right to demand of Him also to continue living after you die? Do you really see what I mean? **
Personally, in your nihilistic point of view I would be guilt free about anything I did. Now I’m not going to the exteme and speaking of “living it up” for myself and walking over people. But sin. If I sinned my only regrete would not to have pleased God in that moment but after that moment passed there would be no guilt. My few failures would be guilt free and the effects on other people would not really be my business. “Let God sort it out” would be my motto.
I would not take that option to live my life. The consequences are disastrous. And mind you that God has nothing to do with it. He won’t be the One making you suffer the consequences. Don’t forget the law of cause and effect.
I agree with you. My faith needs to evolve. I personally don’t need an incentive to serve God. I do it because I love him. However, I believe he is not God if he is not just. How can I love a God who is not just and deals with his creation Justly.
Again Sambos! Charging God with not being just? Would you be content tomorrow morning if the sun did not rise in Russia, since they do not acknowledge the love of God? Is it what you call injustice of God? GOD IS JUST TO ALL HIS CREATION. The problem with you is that you want more than what He has promised to pay you with.
It seems that what your saying demeans humanity and makes us little more than rational dogs.
The opposite is true. My views restore dignity and freewill independence in Mankind, which was God’s purpose for man when he left the "Guarden of Eden."
Though I disagree with you on this analysis it certainly is an accusation that can be leveleda at Philo. Paul may have received the training that you mention but He started Jewish. Note that the argument still remains that if Paul altered the "real"Jesus that there is no quote of Jesus that you can claim is his from the Gospels.
Within the context of having been a religious Jew, there is a lot in the NT that does report back to Jesus. I think I have said here that about 20 percent of the NT,
I do accept as true from and about Jesus.
With your replies you err in that you’re misrepresenting my motivation. For some reason you think that I think its about what I can get out from God and I’m not satisfied with my plight. Maybe you view me this way because of first when I was teasing you in this thread. But I begin to think this is how you view all Christianity or other faiths that don’t hold to your brand of Judaism. The fact is I am more than satisfied with the plight God has given me. Though I am poor by most standards, I have traveled the world. I have seen things that are so awsome I would be at pains to having describe it. I’ve been educated and hold several degrees and awards. I have a wonderful family and healthy beautiful Children. I am in want of nothing. In fact, I am humbled by Gods graciousness to me. My dispute is not towards God being unjust because I don’t believe that. I believe your view necessitates an unjust God. And that its not in line with his character. The people I’m concerned about are those Indian children who live in the slums of India. The multitueds of Thai girls raped and sold into a modern day slavery. Or the Russian and Eastern European women who are deceived in their desire to go to the west and end up as Prostitutes in Tel Aviv addicted to drugs. Or the multitude of Children in Pakistan or Afganistan who are orphens and at the mercy of cruel overlords. Or the multitude of people in Africa though believing their spouses are faithful end up with HIV because this is not the case. Or the starving people in Somalia and Sudan at the mercy of roving bands of crazed militia. To turn a blind eye and offer no justice for such things is in my mind evil. If as you say there is nothing apart from this then I do have a problem with GodThe problem with you is that you want more than what He has promised to pay you with…why should you now demand something after you die?..because He won’t pay you more than others who served less? Listen Sambos, open your NT on that parable of Jesus about the contractor and the labours…Here’s again the labourer charging the Boss with being unjust with his money, or the clay questioning the Artist why don’t you make me this or that way.
Show meGOD IS JUST TO ALL HIS CREATION
No in fact it doesn’tWhat are you talking about! God could care less about us all? Doesn’t the sun shine everywhere? Doesn’t rain fall over all? Doesn’t the air blows into the nose of everyone on earth?
How so? I am very fair in judging God.Linsten my friend, you are not being fair to accuse God with being unjust
But by your wordsAll your questions above about God are based on anthropomorphism. We cannot compare God with man. So, you would think
that God is unjust.
Which means I am free to view God from the only perspective I have which is life on this earth. By these words I am permitted to Judge God for myself. Because though God is the Potter and I’m the Clay; I’m clay with free will and an intellect. I can therefore think. And experience has told me that your statement. My views restore dignity and freewill independence in Mankind, which was God’s purpose for man when he left the “Guarden of Eden.” …It means we have freewill
is false. This statement is not true. Many who have sown innocence have perished. Look at the Holocaust! Many who have shown unrighteousness have gained rewards! Its not how things play out. I have seen that through out the history of man; men who have been bastions of morality and righteousness pay for that by disproportionately being punished and often killed by their fellow man. Looking at the experiences on this Earth, since there is no sin, nor is their evil. Then neither is their good. Things just are so those that are suffering should be left to suffer because that is the way things are. Men should not be put in jail for wrong doing because its a subjective consept anyway. But deep down in your being you and I know this is not the case. There is a palatable consept of Justice. We are created in the very image of God. Therefore I can look at man and see a semblance of God and if man believes in Justice then just maybe there is a greater view of Justice in God. So being of free will and intellect based on my observations I can judge he who created much like men judge painters or potters work based on their work. And looking at this world there is something wrong with God’s view of Justice. In fact, the potter’s pot has problems with the above mentioned circumstances. If there is no evil then these things are not wrong and if these things are not wrong then we shouldn’t struggle against them. If God can be judged by his creation (all things being equal from your philosophy) the harm that man has is from this order God created and if I judge destruction to be evil then I by association must judge God evil.What we plant is exactly what we will harvest. No more no less. That’s the law of cause and effect.
Heaven, “only a state of mind”? Say, you must be very rich? Ever experienced the opposite, a “hellish” state of mind?Yes Sambos, whatelse did you want? Eternal life in Heaven? Nobody is born to live forever, and Heaven is only a state of mind. You didn’t have anything before you were born; why should you now demand something after you die?
What is this having to do with what Sambos says right before it?If I were to buy into this then I would have to ask my self what about the character of God? Why does he create a humanity to love him? Is it for egocentric purposes? Are we massaging his ego? Also I would have to think that God must be to a certain point be unjust. Not to me. But to those who are born and raised in cultures that do not have this opportunity of “loving” God.
Why should you question the character of the Contractor? Because He won’t pay you more than the life He has given you to live? God created Humanity so that each of us live his span of life the best he can. All your questions above about God are based on anthropomorphism. We cannot compare God with man. So, you would think
that God is unjust. Why Sambos, because He won’t pay you more than others who served less? Listen Sambos, open your NT on that parable of Jesus about the contractor and the labours. Read it a few times and meditate on it. You are behaving exactly like those who were hired in the first hours of the morning and got upset that the Boss paid everyone the same salary. Believe me, I love that parable. Jesus was never more inspired.
Again, Ben! Where is Sambos charging God with not being just in the paragraph before yours?I agree with you. My faith needs to evolve. I personally don’t need an incentive to serve God. I do it because I love him. However, I believe he is not God if he is not just. How can I love a God who is not just and deals with his creation Justly.
Again Sambos! Charging God with not being just? Would you be content tomorrow morning if the sun did not rise in Russia, since they do not acknowledge the love of God? Is it what you call injustice of God? GOD IS JUST TO ALL HIS CREATION. The problem with you is that you want more than what He has promised to pay you with.