the meaning of so many protestant denomenations

[Curious]

Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us a Church.

I don’t think I said Jesus left us a book. Where did you get that from?

My point was only that now that we HAVE a Bible and that it seems that both Catholics and Protestants agree it was God who inspired people to write it, that it wouldn’t make sense for us to have a god-inspired book that we have to worry all the time whether we interpret it correctly or not. That’s all.

 

[Katholikos]

Curious:

I don’t think I said Jesus left us a book. Where did you get that from?

It’s a fact of history. I wasn’t implying that you had said it.

My point was only that now that we HAVE a Bible and that it seems that both Catholics and Protestants agree it was God who inspired people to write it, that it wouldn’t make sense for us to have a god-inspired book that we have to worry all the time whether we interpret it correctly or not. That’s all.

And I agree with you. I merely made the case that God didn’t leave us a book with instructions to “figure it out for yourselves.” He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher.

But – when a Catholic says “Bible” and a Protestant says “Bible” we’re talking about two different books. The Bible is a collection of writings, written by different people at different times and locations for different audiences and purposes. Different Christian groups have different collections. Which is the “real” Bible? And how does one know?

This Methodist website: Which Bible, Whose Canon:
gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm

. . . gives an introduction to the problem. When Protestants say the Bible is the sole rule of faith and morals, they first have to decide which Bible is the “real” Word of God. I contend that they have no basis for making that decision.

The Protestant Bible is only 66 books because seven books and parts of Esther and Daniel were removed from the canon by Martin Luther. (Actually, he removed eleven books, but four of them from the NT were restored; the missing OT books were not restored).

Peace be to you and to all who post at Catholic Answers.

JMJ Jay

 

[RobedWithLight]

iguana27:

I think it is a little short-sighted not to see the many expressions of faith in the Catholic religion.

Fransicans, Opus Dei, Carmelite, Charismatic Remewal, Dominicans, the list goes on and on…

The reason there is variety in the Catholic Faith is because there is variety in God’s people. I believe that is the same reason there is variety among Protestant denominations.

There is a difference between the issue of Papal authority and variety of expressions of faith. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a diverse choice of ways to express your faith.

The various expressions of the faith within the Catholic church cannot be compared with the varieties of denominations within Protestantism. Franciscans, Opus Dei, Carmelite and the various movements and orders in the Catholic Church all share the same faith, the same teachings, the same obedience. Such cannot be compared to the splintering seen in Protestantism today, where the differences are essentially over doctrinal and theological concerns, that is, in core teachings like the Eucharist and Baptism for example.

Gerry

 

[YuRa]

I see that it is no use arguing with the common day Catholic. You rely on your own righteousness to get you into Heaven. You believe your deeds surpass the deeds credited to you when you receive Christ’s righteousness by faith. Paul calls it a false gospel that isn’t a gospel at all. That was his whole letter to the Eph.

I know now my blunt statement will get deleted as well as my account, but the word of God will never see decay! It is clear faith alone saves without any effort of man, everything else derives from faith including works. I hope God will bless you and you will except the gospel and also have a place in eternity. Until then you are damned to the eternal flames of Hell.

Sola gratia, sola Christo, sola fide, and sola Scriptura equals Soli Deo Gloria!

By grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone, and also Scripture alone as authority will equal all the Glory to Him alone! God fulfils His purpose for the vessels of mercy and the vessels of destruction without fail. May you be a vessel of mercy and except His sacrifice on the cross and through faith alone be saved.

God bless you all.

 

[Curious]

I merely made the case that God didn’t leave us a book with instructions to “figure it out for yourselves.”

Um. okay. I never said he did. The whole point of my post was to tell my ‘thoughts and feelings’ about the subject and how it seems to circle around. That’s what the originator of this thread wanted…thoughts on the subject.

Am I just so dumb that I’m missing what you’re trying to say to me? If anything?

 

[john_ennis]

YuRa:

I see that it is no use arguing with the common day Catholic. You rely on your own righteousness to get you into Heaven. You believe your deeds surpass the deeds credited to you when you receive Christ’s righteousness by faith. Paul calls it a false gospel that isn’t a gospel at all. That was his whole letter to the Eph.

I know now my blunt statement will get deleted as well as my account, but the word of God will never see decay! It is clear faith alone saves without any effort of man, everything else derives from faith including works. I hope God will bless you and you will except the gospel and also have a place in eternity. Until then you are damned to the eternal flames of Hell.

Sola gratia, sola Christo, sola fide, and sola Scriptura equals Soli Deo Gloria!

By grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone, and also Scripture alone as authority will equal all the Glory to Him alone! God fulfils His purpose for the vessels of mercy and the vessels of destruction without fail. May you be a vessel of mercy and except His sacrifice on the cross and through faith alone be saved.

God bless you all.

Oh, man, Yura did it on this thread too.

Thanks again, Martin L. Your followers have even picked up your method of argument. You reflexively condemned everybody who didn’t believe as you did, too.

Faith alone. I wish.

Peace

 

[Katholikos]

Curious:

Um. okay. I never said he did. The whole point of my post was to tell my ‘thoughts and feelings’ about the subject and how it seems to circle around. That’s what the originator of this thread wanted…thoughts on the subject.

Am I just so dumb that I’m missing what you’re trying to say to me? If anything?

Once again, Curious, I did not say – nor did I imply – that you had said anything. I think we should just leave this alone for the moment. Please accept my apology for whatever you feel I may have done that confused you. Jay

 

[Curious]

Once again, Curious, I did not say – nor did I imply – that you had said anything. I think we should just leave this alone for the moment. Please accept my apology for whatever you feel I may have done that confused you. Jay

LOL…okay…it’s kind of distressing to me that I can’t seem to carry on a conversation, though. There is no apology necessary. You did not confuse me. As usual, I managed to be confused anyway though. Not your fault. Sorry. I’ll just back off.

 

[TheAnglican]

The strength of the many denominations lies in their lack of established doctrines and definitions. While it is certainly comfortable to define matters of faith and morals to the point of a splinter as the Catholic church has done over the years, removing all personal responsibility, free will, and judgment from the individual equation, this leaves little room to demonstrate an genuine “goodness” or “badness.” You are simply given a set of rules and boundaries, and you say “Okay, sounds jolly good to me. I’m with it.” You never have to ponder your next move, because you dare not move at all. On pain of sin and hell as defined my the magisterium and tradition (which has not all been established from day one, but added to and further defined throughout history), a Catholic is guided not typically by any sense of right and wrong, but by fear. When we do good or are good, not because we truly are or sense it, but because we are afraid to do or be otherwise – are we justified or holy?

The Protestant and Reformed churches share the basic tenets of Christianity to a certain degree, and divide on various issues and points. Those who believe in Christ and love Him and obey His commandments as best they have determined how have a greater opportunity to demonstrate goodness than if they were constantly subject to a rule book that takes care of all thought and consideration on their behalf. The reason there are so many Christian denominations is because there are so many individual creatures of God who approach justice and righteousness with their own set of spiritual and intellectual powers.

 

[Lisa_N]

TheAnglican:

The strength of the many denominations lies in their lack of established doctrines and definitions. While it is certainly comfortable to define matters of faith and morals to the point of a splinter as the Catholic church has done over the years, removing all personal responsibility, free will, and judgment from the individual equation, this leaves little room to demonstrate an genuine “goodness” or “badness.”

The Protestant and Reformed churches share the basic tenets of Christianity to a certain degree, and divide on various issues and points. Those who believe in Christ and love Him and obey His commandments as best they have determined how have a greater opportunity to demonstrate goodness than if they were constantly subject to a rule book that takes care of all thought and consideration on their behalf. The reason there are so many Christian denominations is because there are so many individual creatures of God who approach justice and righteousness with their own set of spiritual and intellectual powers.

Interesting perspective but not very realistic. While you may see Catholics has having a ‘rule book’ thereby taking out all personal responsibility or free will, from everything I’ve seen, Catholics are human and sinners just like everyone else. They may well know what they should be doing but it doesn’t mean they will never fall short of the goal. One advantage though, Catholics have the sacrament of reconciliation. It helps to consider our sins, be forgiven and strive to do better. I have never seen anything comparable in Protestant churches.

Lisa N

 

[Katholikos]

Curious:

LOL…okay…it’s kind of distressing to me that I can’t seem to carry on a conversation, though. There is no apology necessary. You did not confuse me. As usual, I managed to be confused anyway though. Not your fault. Sorry. I’ll just back off.

Hi, Curious, I think you’re just unaccustomed to this forum. Give it a little more time. But keep on posting. I’m very glad to know you. You are most welcome in this place. Your questions and comments are very interesting. So carry on!

JMJ Jay
(BTW, JMJ is a little invocation to the Holy Family that Catholics sometimes pray before or after (or both) they write something, to ask God’s blessing. It’s an abbreviation of “Jesus, Mary, and Joseph.” Some Catholic trivia for you . . .)

 

[Katholikos]

TheAnglican:

The reason there are so many Christian denominations is because there are so many individual creatures of God who approach justice and righteousness with their own set of spiritual and intellectual powers.

TheAnglican’s entire post is a defense of relativism – the heresy du jour of the 20th and 21st centuries – the absolute assertion that there are no absolutes. “Truth” is what every individual believes it is.

Protestants have lost sight of the fact that Christianity is a revealed religion and have turned it into a do-it-yourself belief system based on private interpretation. Everyone is their own authority in faith and morals.

Only an outsider would think that Catholics are driven by fear. Catholicism is freedom itself because it is God’s truth. God’s rules set the boundaries within which human happiness can flourish. Red lights protect us from our own folly.

Anglicans assert that divorce and remarriage, contraception, killing the unborn, women priestesses, active homosexual relationships, and same-sex marriages are right and that God’s laws as revealed by Christ Jesus through the Apostles to the Church are wrong. But that’s not freedom – it’s slavery to sin.

JMJ Jay

 

[TheAnglican]

Katholikos:

TheAnglican’s entire post is a defense of relativism – the heresy du jour of the 20th and 21st centuries – the absolute assertion that there are no absolutes. “Truth” is what every individual believes it is.

Protestants have lost sight of the fact that Christianity is a revealed religion and have turned it into a do-it-yourself belief system based on private interpretation. Everyone is their own authority in faith and morals.

Only an outsider would think that Catholics are driven by fear. Catholicism is freedom itself because it is God’s truth. God’s rules set the boundaries within which human happiness can flourish. Red lights protect us from our own folly.

Anglicans assert that divorce and remarriage, contraception, killing the unborn, women priestesses, active homosexual relationships, and same-sex marriages are right and that God’s laws as revealed by Christ Jesus through the Apostles to the Church are wrong. But that’s not freedom – it’s slavery to sin.

JMJ Jay

Not precisely true. We do have absolutes. It is absolutely true that Christ is the son of God and was born of a virgin, suffered under Pontius Pilate, etc… This is absolutley true. Be careful in making canned Catholic responses to what, to a free thinking mind, might be more of an exercise of your own faith than a statement of a governing body’s.

Anglicans do not in one fell swoop assert any of the things you have listed. As in the Catholic church, there are those who do, and those who don’t, personally assert such things. Unlike the Catholic faith, when a leading member of our communion speaks, he does not speak for us all. I fully expect, when I die, to be judged by God on my own merits and failures. I expect no iron shield of doctrinal assent to come between me and justice. I will not be judged on my neighbor’s life, but on my own alone. Neither will you be.

 

[Lisa_N]

TheAnglican:

Not precisely true. We do have absolutes. It is absolutely true that Christ is the son of God and was born of a virgin, suffered under Pontius Pilate, etc… This is absolutley true. Be careful in making canned Catholic responses to what, to a free thinking mind, might be more of an exercise of your own faith than a statement of a governing body’s.

Anglicans do not in one fell swoop assert any of the things you have listed. As in the Catholic church, there are those who do, and those who don’t, personally assert such things. Unlike the Catholic faith, when a leading member of our communion speaks, he does not speak for us all. I fully expect, when I die, to be judged by God on my own merits and failures. I expect no iron shield of doctrinal assent to come between me and justice. I will not be judged on my neighbor’s life, but on my own alone. Neither will you be.

Well true but while we are here on earth, your CHURCH is viewed by the statements it makes and the positions it adopts. You know the old saying about being known by the company you keep. When a CHURCH says to heck with scripture we’re going to “bless” same sex pairings and allow women to choose to kill their babies, do you not think this allows for people who do not wish to live moral lives to point to their religious leadership and say “They think it’s OK so why should I object?” IOW there is no truth and no standard. It’s the church of what’s happenin’ now.

As JMJ Jay pointed out, our happiness lies with our following the word of God. Not because we fear damnation if we don’t but because when we stray it provides hell on earth. We don’t even need to wait until death.

Lisa N

 

[MrS]

Lisa N:

Well true but while we are here on earth, your CHURCH is viewed by the statements it makes and the positions it adopts. You know the old saying about being known by the company you keep. When a CHURCH says to heck with scripture we’re going to “bless” same sex pairings and allow women to choose to kill their babies, do you not think this allows for people who do not wish to live moral lives to point to their religious leadership and say “They think it’s OK so why should I object?” IOW there is no truth and no standard. It’s the church of what’s happenin’ now.

As JMJ Jay pointed out, our happiness lies with our following the word of God. Not because we fear damnation if we don’t but because when we stray it provides hell on earth. We don’t even need to wait until death.

Lisa N

Well said Lisa

 

[LutheranStudent]

Dear Lisa N,
Well said comment! I for one wish that Anglican church would sit down and think about what you just said. I also wish that Catholics would do the same… For what are people to think when Catholic offical teaching and doctrine contradict themselves at every turn? The Catholic church is judged by Protestants according to it’s unfaithfulness to Scripture and it’s own dividedness. Whether you Catholics would like to admit it or not, you are united under name only.

Lutheran Student

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

LutheranStudent:

Dear Lisa N,
Well said comment! I for one wish that Anglican church would sit down and think about what you just said. I also wish that Catholics would do the same… For what are people to think when Catholic offical teaching and doctrine contradict themselves at every turn? The Catholic church is judged by Protestants according to it’s unfaithfulness to Scripture and it’s own dividedness. Whether you Catholics would like to admit it or not, you are united under name only.

Lutheran Student

Catholic teaching does not contradict itself or scripture,nice angry hit and run though it shows true Christian Charity .God Bless

 

[MrS]

LutheranStudent:

Dear Lisa N,
Well said comment! I for one wish that Anglican church would sit down and think about what you just said. I also wish that Catholics would do the same… For what are people to think when Catholic offical teaching and doctrine contradict themselves at every turn? The Catholic church is judged by Protestants according to it’s unfaithfulness to Scripture and it’s own dividedness. Whether you Catholics would like to admit it or not, you are united under name only.

Lutheran Student

Name one, just one, Doctrine of the Faith (you know, a Truth declared as Truth which by virtue of the adjective true, cannot change) which the Catholic Church has declared, held and taught, that has been changed.

Sorry, Transubstantiantin and Real Presence are one in the same, so look again.

If you can name one, I will leave the Catholic Church now.

If you are wrong, will you join RCIA?

 

[TheAnglican]

MrS:

Well said Lisa

Or is it really all that well said? The problem with this is that she seems to have ignored what I said. Who is she, or anyone else, to judge how faithfully any other person is following the word of God? Her argument is limited by its dependence on “the company you keep” and other outward appearances. The truth is far more complex. I would remind us all that had we judged Christ by the company he kept, we would have no savior, for the company he kept often consisted of adulterers, liars, thieves, lepers, and criminals. And if Catholics today judged Christ on how it seems he looks when the host is consecrated, they would not be receiving the Lord’s body, blood, soul, and divinity – but only a wafer of wheat.

 

[MrS]

TheAnglican:

Or is it really all that well said? The problem with this is that she seems to have ignored what I said. Who is she, or anyone else, to judge how faithfully any other person is following the word of God? Her argument is limited by its dependence on “the company you keep” and other outward appearances. The truth is far more complex. I would remind us all that had we judged Christ by the company he kept, we would have no savior, for the company he kept often consisted of adulterers, liars, thieves, lepers, and criminals. And if Catholics today judged Christ on how it seems he looks when the host is consecrated, they would not be receiving the Lord’s body, blood, soul, and divinity – but only a wafer of wheat.

Are you confused? The company that the Church keeps is that of the Apostles, the Early Fathers, and the saints…all by choice of the individual Catholic Christian.

This should not be confused with the company Christ choose to keep,all of whom were certainly inferior to Himself.

We best follow the Word of God by hearing His Word. It is still spoken to us today through His Church, as He promised it would be. “He who hears you , hears Me,”

The Almighty God we worship made us. He supplies us with food that enters as meat, or fruit, or vegatable, and is changed into our body and blood. Why is it so hard to think [1] that He could change wheat and wine into His very own Body and Blood and [2] that He would set the criteria to have that happen as He chooses… through His ministerial priesthood,… in only His Church… and only in His liturgy of the Mass.

The best company you can keep it that which brings you to one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism.