The Messiah

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Nickkname said:
I found this interesting Q&A on EWTN:

Jesus painstakingly and deliberately fulfilled every one. Do you have any insights why Jews do not identify this unmistakable link and accept that Jesus Christ is God and Savior? I
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Because we’ve failed to find a prophesy in the Tanakh to Moshiach (or any of his followers) being an expert in text-manipulation.
 
Kaninchen said:
Because we’ve failed to find a prophesy in the Tanakh to Moshiach (or any of his followers) being an expert in text-manipulation.
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Nickkname said:
Would you care to elaborate on that statement? 🙂
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I have yet to see an elaboration of this text-manipulation excuse from her. You’ll probably get web links. Which is fine because they reveal many things on how past false Messiahs were veiwed by the people while they were living, and then played “Monday morning quarterback” when the false Messiah died and went to the ground, only to stay in the ground.

What they cannot explain is how a remnant of Israel, along with numerous other gentiles from all nations, have always believed in the name of Yeshua and that he fulfilled many prophecies written in the OT.
 
Lev23 said:
I have yet to see an elaboration of this text-manipulation excuse from her. You’ll probably get web links. Which is fine because they reveal many things on how past false Messiahs were veiwed by the people while they were living, and then played “Monday morning quarterback” when the false Messiah died and went to the ground, only to stay in the ground.

What they cannot explain is how a remnant of Israel, along with numerous other gentiles from all nations, have always believed in the name of Yeshua and that he fulfilled many prophecies written in the OT.
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What ‘elaboration’ does the point need? Remembering, after all, that this is a Christian board and a level of diplomacy is necessary from non-Christians.

After all, this goes to the heart of what you believe and the differences between us.

OK, I’ll try briefly and as diplomatically as possible to say what I mean.

To you there’s the Tanakh and there’s the ‘New Testament’ within which the marvels of Jesus’ life are laid out and within which aspects of his life can be deduced from the text of the Tanakh.

To me, the ‘New Testament’ is, in no sense, ‘reportage’, it’s just a concoction, where ‘Jesus’ (as opposed to some possible itinerant rabbi around at the time) is made to fit some Jewish and Gentile contradictory concepts of divinity and where all sorts of attempts have been made to make Jesus appear to parallel some texts or other in the Tanakh, whether those texts were actually ‘prophetic’ or not (ie, just a bit of text that can be made to ‘fit’) and even whether it’s sensible or not - virgins having babies and so on.

The problem that Jesus actually didn’t ‘perform’ from the point of view of any practical prophesies of Messiah is gotten around by saying that he achieved them in some metaphysical sense.

What, to you, is a religious conversation, to me, is a discussion within the realm or literary criticism - we really might as well be discussing Harry Potter or The Lord Of The Rings.
 
Nickkname said:
I found this interesting Q&A on EWTN:

Having rejected Jesus, the Jewish scholars were bound to interpret prophetic texts in ways that didn’t seem to point to Him. There had been a long running disagreement among rabbis over whether Isaiah’s Suffering Servant prophecies should be applied to the Messiah. If they were messianic, they seemed in conflict with prophecies foretelling the glorious reign. The Essenes solved the problem by looking for two Messiahs. The majority of Jews interpreted only the glorious prophecies as messianic, and applied the Servant prophesies instead to Israel, suffering for the sins of the world. What no one seems to have anticipated is that the Messiah would come twice.

I’m going to research this to see if it is true what David says. 🙂
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Having accpeted Jesus, the Christian scholars were bound to interpret prophetic texts in ways that seemed to point to Him. What no one seems to have anticipated is that these scholars would solve the problem of Jesus completely failing to fullfill the duties of Messiah by inventing the explanation that he would come twice, apparently at any time within several millenia.
 
Kaninchen said:
What ‘elaboration’ does the point need? Remembering, after all, that this is a Christian board and a level of diplomacy is necessary from non-Christians.

After all, this goes to the heart of what you believe and the differences between us.

OK, I’ll try briefly and as diplomatically as possible to say what I mean.

To you there’s the Tanakh and there’s the ‘New Testament’ within which the marvels of Jesus’ life are laid out and within which aspects of his life can be deduced from the text of the Tanakh.

To me, the ‘New Testament’ is, in no sense, ‘reportage’, it’s just a concoction, where ‘Jesus’ (as opposed to some possible itinerant rabbi around at the time) is made to fit some Jewish and Gentile contradictory concepts of divinity and where all sorts of attempts have been made to make Jesus appear to parallel some texts or other in the Tanakh, whether those texts were actually ‘prophetic’ or not (ie, just a bit of text that can be made to ‘fit’) and even whether it’s sensible or not - virgins having babies and so on.

The problem that Jesus actually didn’t ‘perform’ from the point of view of any practical prophesies of Messiah is gotten around by saying that he achieved them in some metaphysical sense.

What, to you, is a religious conversation, to me, is a discussion within the realm or literary criticism - we really might as well be discussing Harry Potter or The Lord Of The Rings.
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You somehow forget or deliberately ignore the fact that the authenticity of the New Testament is NOT dependent on the fulfillment of certain prophecies. This is why you cannot define the New Testament as a concocted story. It is not plausible to claim that the Evangelists checked the Torah to fabricate a story and then ascribe it to a man named Yeshua. Instead, they became witnesses of the events occurring in the life of a man called Yeshua and later concluded that some of those events had been predicted by different prophets in the Torah.

I suggest you read the infancy narrative in the Gospel of Luke and compare it to the one in that of Matthew to see that Luke refers to the predictions and prophecies of “modern prophets” (Zacchariah, Simeon, Anna) since he addresses an originally Gentile audience unlike Matthew.
 
Angelos said:
You somehow forget or deliberately ignore the fact that the authenticity of the New Testament is NOT dependent on the fulfillment of certain prophecies. This is why you cannot define the New Testament as a concocted story. It is not plausible to claim that the Evangelists checked the Torah to fabricate a story and then ascribe it to a man named Yeshua. Instead, they became witnesses of the events occurring in the life of a man called Yeshua and later concluded that some of those events had been predicted by different prophets in the Torah.
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This is just assertion.
I suggest you read the infancy narrative in the Gospel of Luke and compare it to the one in that of Matthew to see that Luke refers to the predictions and prophecies of “modern prophets” (Zacchariah, Simeon, Anna) since he addresses an originally Gentile audience unlike Matthew.
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I suggest you read the Hobbit before The Lord of The Rings.

Ok, I admit that’s rather cruel.
 
Are you saying that the New Testament is prophetic of LOTR?

Ooooh! You’ll be telling me that Narnia is a kind of Christian allegory next :eek:
 
Valke2 said:
Having accpeted Jesus, the Christian scholars were bound to interpret prophetic texts in ways that seemed to point to Him. What no one seems to have anticipated is that these scholars would solve the problem of Jesus completely failing to fullfill the duties of Messiah by inventing the explanation that he would come twice, apparently at any time within several millenia.
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The first Christians were actually poor and uneducated people. And if you don’t believe me, read this excerpt from an apology by Athenagoras, a Christian apologist of the second half of the second century:

“But among us you will find uneducated persons, and artisans, and old women, who, if they are unable in words to prove the benefit of our doctrine, yet by their deeds exhibit the benefit arising from their persuasion of its truth: they do not rehearse speeches, but exhibit good works; when struck, they do not strike again; when robbed, they do not go to law; they give to those that ask of them, and love their neighbours as themselves.”

Source: newadvent.org/fathers/0205.htm
 
Angelos said:
This same objection can be applied to your previous posts too. 😉
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With the obvious difference that I’m not ‘selling’, I’m just telling you why I’m not ‘buying’ - whether you believe in Jesus or not is a matter of complete indifference to me.
What do you mean? If the NT is the Lord of the Rings, the Torah is the book of the Hobbit?
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Actually, you’d told me to read some bit of the NT before reading some other bit of the NT and I just indicated that it was like telling me to read the Hobbit before the Lord Of The Rings.
 
Some of Lewis’ science fiction is terribly labored isn’t it - I’ve heard some of it on BBC7 and it was like audio neuralgia.
 
Nickkname said:
The first Christians were actually poor and uneducated people. And if you don’t believe me, read this excerpt from an apology by Athenagoras, a Christian apologist of the second half of the second century:

“But among us you will find uneducated persons, and artisans, and old women, who, if they are unable in words to prove the benefit of our doctrine, yet by their deeds exhibit the benefit arising from their persuasion of its truth: they do not rehearse speeches, but exhibit good works; when struck, they do not strike again; when robbed, they do not go to law; they give to those that ask of them, and love their neighbours as themselves.”

Source: newadvent.org/fathers/0205.htm
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But the first christians weren’t going around citing to Isaiah and other Jewish scripture to support the allegation that Jesus was God or the Messiah. ANd certainly such allegations were not being proposed by the uneducated. And if that is your belief, then I can only say that arguments for Jesus fullfilling prophecies were set forth by the uneducated does not exactly help the “Jews were wrong for rejecting Jesus” argument.
 
Valke2 said:
But the first christians weren’t going around citing to Isaiah and other Jewish scripture to support the allegation that Jesus was God or the Messiah. ANd certainly such allegations were not being proposed by the uneducated. And if that is your belief, then I can only say that arguments for Jesus fullfilling prophecies were set forth by the uneducated does not exactly help the “Jews were wrong for rejecting Jesus” argument.
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certainly not, it was proposed by the HS of God. who reveals all Truth to the Church according to Jesus Words.

it is by faith that you believe in God, is it not?
so it is with Jesus, we go by faith too. even though the evidence is there.

i remember the passage which rabbis argued about how to stop the followers of Jesus. one said if it is of God will go on, if it is not it will be destroyed. less we will find ourselves fighting against God.

well, it was not destroyed, it is still here. go figure!

:bowdown: :signofcross: :highprayer:
 
If the Jews don’t believe that Christ is the Messiah, who do they think will come and when? Will they wait forever? Jesus is the Messiah and that is when the Jews will find out, on their deathbeds, just like the atheists who scream the name of Jesus when they are dying…
I just hope that God has mercy on their souls.
 
Why would that be ridiculous, when AS A CATHOLIC you also believe that Christ will be back. Do you think atheists will be saved? How do you know what will happen? I have read several books about this, especially from the Blessed Mother herself revealing to the visionaries what will happen if people do not turn to God.
What is your problem? (Just like JimmyB said in the other thread, Catholics always ganging up on Catholics).
 
Kaninchen said:
With the obvious difference that I’m not ‘selling’, I’m just telling you why I’m not ‘buying’ - whether you believe in Jesus or not is a matter of complete indifference to me.
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NOPE. It is the same thing because you are trying to sell me your product by trying to convince me that the first product I bought is fake. 😉
Kaninchen said:
Actually, you’d told me to read some bit of the NT before reading some other bit of the NT and I just indicated that it was like telling me to read the Hobbit before the Lord Of The Rings.
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This is not a good analogy though. My suggestion pertained to two separate books, different contents of which indicated different purpose of the authors. Actually, the fact that all of the four Evangelists do NOT refer to the prophecies in the Torah in exactly the same way and that Luke does not restrict the notion of prophecy to the Torah debunks your hypothesis.
 
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