The Metamorphose of Apollos

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, this is not only interesting. It’s BRILLIANT!!! So, Paul made it a 'Christian Church after Acts 15!

It belongs in the fiction section. But it IS Brilliant.

But, you see. If you read Ephesians, you’ll see that Paul professed One Faith, One Baptism, etc. etc. He didn’t hijack a church and convert it into a different one.

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NotWorthy, That’s exactly how Paul built his churches: Like the cuckoo bird. Laying his eggs in the nests of other birds and then taking them over by expelling the small ones. Only that with Paul, he would turn the other birds into birds of his feather. That’s how Paul built his churches: With the converts of the Nazarenes. He was never able to build one from scratch. I mean with Gentiles. He would, as you well put it, hijack
the converts of the Nazarenes, who were the original and really ctive ones in their missionary work.

Ben:

 

[NotWorthy]

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NotWorthy, That’s exactly how Paul built his churches: Like the cuckoo bird. Laying his eggs in the nests of other birds and then taking them over by expelling the small ones. Only that with Paul, he would turn the other birds into birds of his feather. That’s how Paul built his churches: With the converts of the Nazarenes. He was never able to build one from scratch. I mean with Gentiles. He would, as you well put it, hijack
the converts of the Nazarenes, who were the original and really ctive ones in their missionary work.

Ben:

I was under the impression that, in most of Paul’s missionary journeys, he was the first Christian to evangelize the town. Thessalonica, Corinth, Cypress, etc.

You know, Dan Brown got rich over thinking such as yours!

 

[Ben_Masada]

I was under the impression that, in most of Paul’s missionary journeys, he was the first Christian to evangelize the town. Thessalonica, Corinth, Cypress, etc.

You know, Dan Brown got rich over thinking such as yours!

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Whenever you have enough free time to read the whole book of Acts, focus on the Pauline missionary activities. He would jump from Synagogue to Synagogue. Take a look at Acts 13:46. Even after he declared, “We now turn to the Gentiles.” That decision of his came as a result of being very ill treated by some Jews, probably Nazarenes, who were upset to see their disciples listening to Paul. The point is that Paul left that place and went to the Synagogue of Iconium. (Acts 14:1) The man was really something. Declared to go to the Gentiles and would go to the Jews. Then, he would introduce himself as the apostle of the Gentiles. He was rather funny sometimes.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

What he was speaking of was The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, who converted to Catholicism because of the help the Pope had given. I believe what you have printed is vile and unsupportable and against known facts.

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That’s really unbecoming that you namecall me vile when we lost six million of our people and I am not too fast to take my hat off to a few dozens that some Catholics helped to save. Believe me, the survivors lost all that they had in terms of wealth paying those who helped them to hide from the Nazis. You ought to read a book about the Holocaust to understand what really went on.

Ben:

 

[NotWorthy]

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Whenever you have enough free time to read the whole book of Acts, focus on the Pauline missionary activities. He would jump from Synagogue to Synagogue. Take a look at Acts 13:46. Even after he declared, “We now turn to the Gentiles.” That decision of his came as a result of being very ill treated by some Jews, probably Nazarenes, who were upset to see their disciples listening to Paul. The point is that Paul left that place and went to the Synagogue of Iconium. (Acts 14:1) The man was really something. Declared to go to the Gentiles and would go to the Jews. Then, he would introduce himself as the apostle of the Gentiles. He was rather funny sometimes.

Ben:

OK. Nice touch on the sarcasm (whenever you have time to read Acts… that’s a hoot! :clapping.

Let’s give a running acount:
He would jump from Synagogue to Synagogue. (quite true) Take a look at Acts 13:46. Even after he declared, “We now turn to the Gentiles.” That decision of his came as a result of being very ill treated by some Jews (quite true) , probably Nazarenes note: unfounded opinion by Ben, who were upset to see their disciples listening to Paul right church, wrong pew. These were Jews that had the problem, not Nazarenes. Unlike Ben, I can only go by what the author (who was there) says and not Ben (who was NOT there). The point is that Paul left that place and went to the Synagogue of Iconium. (Acts 14:1) The man was really something. Declared to go to the Gentiles and would go to the Jews. Correct, Paul modus operandi was to go to the Jews first, and then the Gentiles. He sort of had a lot of love left for his brethren (the Jews) and wanted them to get on the boat before it left the dock. Then, he would introduce himself as the apostle of the Gentiles. He was rather funny sometimes. Yeah, that whole beating and caining and scourging and years of imprisonment sort of wears one down. I think he associated himself with the Gentiles better because they never held his conversion against him. The Jews, as evidenced by those that made vows not to eat til Paul was dead, however, seemed to have held a little grudge…

 

[NotWorthy]

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That’s really unbecoming that you namecall me vile when we lost six million of our people and I am not too fast to take my hat off to a few dozens that some Catholics helped to save. Believe me, the survivors lost all that they had in terms of wealth paying those who helped them to hide from the Nazis. You ought to read a book about the Holocaust to understand what really went on.

Ben:

Ben, I wouldn’t limit the number saved by the Catholic Church to dozens and then declare, “well, at least they were paid to help them”.

Although its belittling to those who risked their lives to help their brother Jews, I’m not going to call that vile, it just makes me pity you all the more.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, I wouldn’t limit the number saved by the Catholic Church to dozens and then declare, “well, at least they were paid to help them”.

Although its belittling to those who risked their lives to help their brother Jews, I’m not going to call that vile, it just makes me pity you all the more.

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NotWorthy, Pope Pious XII could have saved millions if he had interfered, given his German relations with the Nazis. Yes, he had been a Diplomat in Germany before he became Pope.

Numerous requests were made from throughout the world so that he could interfere and be a positive influence to save the Jews from the Holocaust. He had only cold shoulders for an answer, under the shredded excuse that it would make matters
worse even to the Church, since Hitler had become relly insane.

Then, don’t forget the Concordat signed between Hitler and Pope Pious XI that the Church would be out of Nazi fangs in exchange for a non-interference policy in the Nazi regime.

Therefore, the silence of Pious XII became very convenient. The end result was the sacrifice of six millions Jews. One million and a half were children who did not know their right from left. Even a trial like the one Jesus had, those children were not allowed. What is it that makes the blood of these any different from that? I am sure you know what I mean.

Ben:

 

[patrick457]

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NotWorthy, Pope Pious XII could have saved millions if he had interfered, given his German relations with the Nazis. Yes, he had been a Diplomat in Germany before he became Pope.

Numerous requests were made from throughout the world so that he could interfere and be a positive influence to save the Jews from the Holocaust. He had only cold shoulders for an answer, under the shredded excuse that it would make matters
worse even to the Church, since Hitler had become relly insane.

Then, don’t forget the Concordat signed between Hitler and Pope Pious XI that the Church would be out of Nazi fangs in exchange for a non-interference policy in the Nazi regime.

Therefore, the silence of Pious XII became very convenient. The end result was the sacrifice of six millions Jews. One million and a half were children who did not know their right from left. Even a trial like the one Jesus had, those children were not allowed. What is it that makes the blood of these any different from that? I am sure you know what I mean.

Ben:

Oh no, not the “Hitler’s Pope” meme again.

1.) There was a directive from Pius XII, asking Catholic clergy and religious to shelter Jews from the Holocaust issued on October 25, 1943. The week prior, more than 1,000 Jews in Rome’s ghetto had been arrested and deported to Germany.

An anonymous Augustinian nun, writing in her diary, recorded that “In these sad days, the Holy Father wishes to save his children, also the Jews, and orders that monasteries give shelter to those persecuted. Convents must adhere to the desire of the Supreme Pontiff.”

2.) Pope Pius, in his position as Secretary of State for the Vatican before his election as pope, DID have diplomatic relations with the Reich. No one would deny that. That was part of his job and he’s only doing it because that’s what he’s supposed to do. But no one would never accuse the Ambassadors to Germany of being in league with Hitler or the Nazis simply because they had diplomatic relations with the country.

3.) As early as April 1935, as Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Pacelli (the future Pius XII) addressed 250,000 pilgrims at Lourdes:

“These [Nazi] ideologues are in fact only miserable plagiarizers who dress up ancient error in new tinsel. It matters little whether they rally round the flag of the social revolution…or are possessed by the superstition of race and blood.”

He was responsible for the final wording of Pius XI’s encyclical, Mit Brennender Sorge, and made it more strongly antiracist. The encyclical, written in German, was published on March 10, 1937 and read in all churches in Germany on Palm Sunday. An excerpt from the encyclical states that:

Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community—however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things—whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds…

After the encyclical was published, Nazi persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany began by “outright repression” and “staged prosecutions” of monks for homosexuality, with the maximum of publicity. In Poland in fact, the Nazis murdered over 2500 monks and priests while scores more were sent to concentration camps.

4.) In 1938 Italy passed its first anti-Jewish laws. Cardinal Pacelli condemned them and took action. In January 1939 he asked the ambassadors to the Vatican to procure entry visas to their countries for German and Italian Jews. He also called a German bishop to Rome to plan a resettlement project in São Paulo, Brazil.

 

[patrick457]

5.) During June of 1940, some 500 Jews left Bratislava on a small boat bound for Palestine. Four months later the boat tried to enter the harbor at Istanbul and was denied permission. An Italian patrol boat picked up the passengers and took them to a prison camp on Rhodes. Warned that they were to be handed over to the Germans, these Jews sent one of their number to Rome, where he obtained an audience with the Pope. Pius XII intervened with the Italian government and all 500 were interned in southern Calabria, where they survived the war.

6.) The Jewish theologian and former Israeli Consul Pinchas Lapide reports arriving at Ferramonti-Tarsia to find 3,200 Jews, mostly refugees from Austria, Czechoslovakia and Hungary.

“They had been not only saved by papal intervention but also fed, clad and looked after at Vatican expense by two papal emissaries who set up a kosher kitchen, organized a school for the children….”

7.) The Vatican did sign a Concordat with the Third Reich on July 20, 1933 in an attempt to protect the Church’s rights in Germany (the Reichskonkordat), but the Nazis quickly violated its articles (in particular article 31, which asks for “[protection] of Catholic organizations and freedom of religious practice”). This eventually led to protests and finally, to Pius XI issuing Mit Brennender Sorge in 1937, which in turn led to even harsher persecutions. Interestingly, this concordat is still valid in modern-day Germany.

If you’ll believe me (and this news article), the whole legend of Pope Pius XII being “a cold and ruthless Nazi symphatizer who never did anything to save even one Jew” was actually a lie and an exaggeration concocted by the Soviet KGB in order to besmirch the Pope’s name and the Catholic Church’s in general.

 

[Randy_Carson]

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Let’s make a deal so that your hostility may abate a little. You show me where Apollos preached that Jesus was the Messiah before he met Aquila and Priscilla, and I’ll commit myself to become a Catholic. If you can’t, you will commit
yourself to consider that you could be mistaken about your beliefs.
Is that a deal?

Ben:

Ben-

Let’s examine the text, okay? This is from the NIV:

Acts 18:24-28
24Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. 25He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.
27When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. 28For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Notice that v. 25 states that Apollos “taught about Jesus accurately.” Would it have been accurate to omit the fact that Jesus rose from the dead three days after his crucifixion? Would it have been accurate to omit that one of Jesus’ disciples, Thomas, cried out, “My Lord and my God!” upon seeing the resurrected Jesus? Would it have been accurate to omit that Jesus ascended into heaven with many witnesses?

So, if Apollos had been instructed “in the way of the Lord” and spoke about Jesus “accurately” and “with great fervor”, does it really stand to reason that it was only AFTER he met with Priscilla and Aquila that he understood that Jesus was the Messiah? Hardly.

If Apollos did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, then what the heck was he so excited about? What was there to “speak boldly in the synagogue” about if not the fact that Jesus was the Messiah?

I dunno…I think you might want to explore RCIA options in your area.

 

[Randy_Carson]

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NotWorthy, Pope Pious XII could have saved millions if he had interfered, given his German relations with the Nazis. Yes, he had been a Diplomat in Germany before he became Pope.

Numerous requests were made from throughout the world so that he could interfere and be a positive influence to save the Jews from the Holocaust. He had only cold shoulders for an answer, under the shredded excuse that it would make matters
worse even to the Church, since Hitler had become relly insane.

Then, don’t forget the Concordat signed between Hitler and Pope Pious XI that the Church would be out of Nazi fangs in exchange for a non-interference policy in the Nazi regime.

Therefore, the silence of Pious XII became very convenient. The end result was the sacrifice of six millions Jews. One million and a half were children who did not know their right from left. Even a trial like the one Jesus had, those children were not allowed. What is it that makes the blood of these any different from that? I am sure you know what I mean.

Ben:

Ben-

RABBI David G. Dalin has written an excellent refutation of this falsehood:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51H0GS01CML.SS500.jpg

Read it.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben-

RABBI David G. Dalin has written an excellent refutation of this falsehood:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51H0GS01CML.SS500.jpg

Read it.

Well, maybe I have been reading the wrong books about Pious XII. Everything is possible. I’ll look for this
book here in the public libraries.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben-

Let’s examine the text, okay? This is from the NIV:

Acts 18:24-28

24Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. 25He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John.

Ben:

 

[NotWorthy]

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NotWorthy, Pope Pious XII could have saved millions if he had interfered, given his German relations with the Nazis. Yes, he had been a Diplomat in Germany before he became Pope.

Numerous requests were made from throughout the world so that he could interfere and be a positive influence to save the Jews from the Holocaust. He had only cold shoulders for an answer, under the shredded excuse that it would make matters
worse even to the Church, since Hitler had become relly insane.

Then, don’t forget the Concordat signed between Hitler and Pope Pious XI that the Church would be out of Nazi fangs in exchange for a non-interference policy in the Nazi regime.

Therefore, the silence of Pious XII became very convenient. The end result was the sacrifice of six millions Jews. One million and a half were children who did not know their right from left. Even a trial like the one Jesus had, those children were not allowed. What is it that makes the blood of these any different from that? I am sure you know what I mean.

Ben:

Yes, I know. And if you think what you just posted is accurate then you’ve got a lot to learn. If none of my brothers answers these charges, I will, but my time is limited until tomorrow afternoon.

Appended: I see that it has been answered (now that I’ve caught up with the rest of this thread), for further discussion let’s start this on another thread. If you don’t, I’ll show your post (removing your name) and let it ride. This thread has been hijacked enough.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Ben:

Ben-

This is for you:

How to use the Catholic Answers Forum Quote Function

If you want to insert your comments into the middle of something you are quoting, you have to manually insert square brackets. Here is the original passage I want to comment on:

Mary had a little lamb whose fleece was black as soot, and everywhere that Mary went, his sooty foot he put.

In order to show you what you need to do, I have to use a different set of brackets for illustrative purposes only. I’ll use { and } instead of and ] so that you can see where the brackets should be located, and I’ll insert my comments in red text.

{quote}Mary had a little lamb whose fleece was black as soot,{/quote} I’m inserting my comments here in red. {quote}and everywhere that Mary went, his sooty foot he put.{/quote}Hope this helps.

Now, wherever you see the { or } you have to actually use a square bracket or ]. So the paragraph above comes out like this:

Mary had a little lamb whose fleece was black as soot,

I’m inserting my comments here in red.

and everywhere that Mary went his sooty foot he put.

Hope this helps.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Ben: “What the heck!” Jesus had inaugurated an organization that would become known as the Sect of Nazarenes, whose purpose was to establish pure Torah observance for the whole nation. That’s what contributed for the shock with the Roman occupiers and paved his way to the cross; but his teaching continued with his disciples. It was all about his teachings and not about himself.

I see…

So, Jesus came to establish just another faction within Judaism…one that was supposed to sweep the nation…except that things did not work out that way.

Ben, if Jesus did not rise from the dead, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. It was not “all about his teachings” – Jesus claimed to be God–and this is not the claim of someone who is merely a good teacher.

Someone who claims to be God must be either a) a lunatic, b) a liar or c) our Lord and Savior.

A lunatic could genuinely believe that he is God, but no one would listen to him because he is crazy.

A liar could claim to be God and deceive some people, but then he is not a good teacher.

Our Lord could claim to be God and offer good teaching because his claim would be true.

What do you think? Was Jesus a lunatic, a liar or Lord?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well, maybe I have been reading the wrong books about Pious XII. Everything is possible. I’ll look for this
book here in the public libraries.

Ben:

I hope you find it.

John Cornwall authored the book, Hitler’s Pope, that inspired the title of Rabbi Dalin’s book correcting the record.

Here is an article on Wikipedia that discusses Cornwall’s book:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler’s_Pope

Near the bottom of the article, you will find comments on Cornwall’s retraction:

According a 2004 article in the The Economist, Cornwell’s historical work has not always been “fair-minded” and Hitler’s Pope specifically “lacked balance”. The article goes on to state that Cornwell, “chastened”, had admitted as much himself, in a later work, The Pontiff in Winter, citing the following quote as evidence:

I would now argue, in the light of the debates and evidence following ‘Hitler’s Pope’, that Pius XII had so little scope of action that it is impossible to judge the motives for his silence during the war, while Rome was under the heel of Mussolini and later occupied by the Germans."[5][14]
One commentator asked in light of a substantial retraction: “So why has Mr. Cornwell not withdrawn his book, or at least altered its hateful title?” [4]

​

You might also consider reading:

How Pius XII Protected Jews
By Jimmy Akin
catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp

 

[Ben_Masada]

I see…

So, Jesus came to establish just another faction within Judaism…one that was supposed

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben-

This is for you:

How to use the Catholic Answers Forum Quote Function

If you want to insert your comments into the middle of something you are quoting, you have to manually insert square brackets. Here is the original passage I want to comment on:

Mary had a little lamb whose fleece was black as soot, and everywhere that Mary went, his sooty foot he put.

In order to show you what you need to do, I have to use a different set of brackets for illustrative purposes only. I’ll use { and } instead of and ] so that you can see where the brackets should be located, and I’ll insert my comments in red text.

{quote}Mary had a little lamb whose fleece was black as soot,{/quote} I’m inserting my comments here in red. {quote}and everywhere that Mary went, his sooty foot he put.{/quote}Hope this helps.

Now, wherever you see the { or } you have to actually use a square bracket or ]. So the paragraph above comes out like this:

I’m inserting my comments here in red. Hope this helps.

It does help. Thank you.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy Carson;4809605:

I see…

Yes, and if you read Matthew 5:17-19, he leaves no one in the dark about his mission. To observe Judaism to the dot of the letter, and to make sure we all did the same under the threat of not belonging in the Kingdom of God.

So, the only real purpose that Jesus had in mind was to encourage Jews to be better Jews. That’s it?

Did Jesus say nothing of his death and resurrection before they occurred?

Matthew 16:21
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Matthew 20:17-19
17Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, 18"We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"

I know it. I blame Paul that we are here having this conversation today.

Help me understand your misunderstanding…do you think that if it were not for Paul, none of the other disciples of Jesus (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) would have said anything about Jesus’ death and resurrection?

Jesus never claimed to be God. He was Jewish, and we know that in Judaism there is no such a thing as Greek Mythology.

The only mythology here is your belief that Jesus did not claim to be God. It is understandable if you have not spent much time reading the Christian scriptures…why would you? However, in the Gospel of John, we find Jesus talking with a Samaritan woman with whom the following exchange occurs:

John 4:25-26
25The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26Then Jesus declared, “I who speak to you am he.”

Ben, Jesus declared Himself to be the Messiah. Do you have any thoughts on this?

I agree with you. Jesus was no lunatic. Lunatics are those who claim that he was what he was not. He himself declared that the Lord our God is the only Lord. (Mark 12:29)

Jesus also declared that God is His Father, and that He and the Father are one.

John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

John 10:30
30"I and the Father are one."

Jesus was neither a lunatic, liar or Lord. Jesus was Jewish and we all know that such a thing happens only in Greek Mythology. If he was a Greek man we would not be having this conversation.

Again, this has nothing to do with Greek mythology. It has everything to do with the fulfillment of Judaism.

The Messiah has come, God incarnate. Jesus is Lord. Amen!