The Metamorphose of Apollos

[adrift]

---

That’s really unbecoming that you namecall me vile when we lost six million of our people and I am not too fast to take my hat off to a few dozens that some Catholics helped to save. Believe me, the survivors lost all that they had in terms of wealth paying those who helped them to hide from the Nazis. You ought to read a book about the Holocaust to understand what really went on.

Ben:

Let me get this straight. When you say that Catholics only helped the Jews for money, that is alright, When I tell you that is a vile thing to claim(perhaps I overreacted but I don’t think so), you say its not becoming because six million Jews were murdered? I don’t see the connection but I do see the pity me attitude. The Jews were not the only and not the first to be killed by Hitlers regime thousands of priest were. I have read books on the Holocaust and have visited one camp. It is a horror but that doesn’t excuse your bigotry.The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, converted on what you claim was a few dozen. I doubt if he would have been as impressed as he was if that were true.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Ben-

I almost forgot…earlier I posted the following:

Jesus also declared that God is His Father, and that He and the Father are one.

John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

John 10:30
30"I and the Father are one." Now, since Jesus clearly declared Himself to be one with the Father, he cannot simply be a good teacher or a prophet.

Was He a lunatic, a liar or Lord?

 

[adrift]

The Jews were not the only and not the first to be killed by Hitlers regime thousands of priest were.

This isn’t quite what I intended to write.

Many were killed by Hitler not just Jews. There were handicapped, Gypsies and other people that Hitler believed were not his “perfect” race.

He was the epitome of evil.

That however does not excuse the bigotry that Ben Masada exhibits. There have been many groups through history that have been persecuted. We as humans must fight against such persecutions. Christians were persecuted in much the same way as the Jews. Christians are still being persecuted. Now our friend will claim my statement is antisemitism that is unfortunate for that attitude is what perpetuates hatred and not an understanding between people. Perhaps his statement is just ignorant and if that is the case than indeed my statement is too harsh and if that is the case I apologize.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Ben-

I almost forgot…earlier I posted the following:

Now, since Jesus clearly declared Himself to be one with the Father, he cannot simply be a good teacher or a prophet.

Was He a lunatic, a liar or Lord?Still waiting.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Let me get this straight. When you say that Catholics only helped the Jews for money, that is alright, When I tell you that is a vile thing to claim(perhaps I overreacted but I don’t think so), you say its not becoming because six million Jews were murdered? I don’t see the connection but I do see the pity me attitude. The Jews were not the only and not the first to be killed by Hitlers regime thousands of priest were. I have read books on the Holocaust and have visited one camp. It is a horror but that doesn’t excuse your bigotry.The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, converted on what you claim was a few dozen. I doubt if he would have been as impressed as he was if that were true.

I meant to say that for six million Jews to be decimated by a born Catholic Hitler, the Catholic Church could have done much more than to save just a few dozens. God Almighty! Can you think of six million people? That’s the population of a sizeable city. I am sorry if I can’t understand the crumbles from the table, so to speak.

Ben:

 

[NotWorthy]

I meant to say that for six million Jews to be decimated by a born Catholic Hitler, the Catholic Church could have done much more than to save just a few dozens. God Almighty! Can you think of six million people? That’s the population of a sizeable city. I am sorry if I can’t understand the crumbles from the table, so to speak.

Ben:

Ben, since you’re so good at tossing out numbers, do you have any idea how many Catholics were killed by the Nazi’s during this time?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;4810985:

So, the only real purpose that Jesus had in mind was to encourage Jews to be better Jews. That’s it?

Yes, Torah observant Jews. A country under Torah Constitution.

Did Jesus say nothing of his death and resurrection before they occurred?

Never. If he had said anything about his resurrection, his apostles would not have considered the news about his resurrection as nonsense and an idle tale. Read Luke 24:11. Moreover, if he had said anything about his resurrection, Mary Magdalene would not have thought that someone had stolen his body from the tomb when she saw the empty tomb and cried desperetaly. Read John 20:13.

Help me understand your misunderstanding…do you think that if it were not for Paul, none of the other disciples of Jesus (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) would have said anything about Jesus’ death and resurrection?

That’s exactly how it looks like. Besides, Mark and Luke were not disciples of Jesus. They never even saw Jesus
if I am to remind you.

The only mythology here is your belief that Jesus did not claim to be God. It is understandable if you have not spent much time reading the Christian scriptures…why would you? However, in the Gospel of John, we find Jesus talking with a Samaritan woman with whom the following exchange occurs:

I think you don’t know the ABC’s about Judaism.
A human being born of God with a woman! Are you crazy? There was never an Olympian Pantheon in Israel. Regarding that dialogue between Jesus and the Samaritan woman, anything beyond verse 24 of John 4 is a later interpolation to enhance the Pauline idea that Jesus was the Messiah. If Jesus had ever claimed to be the Messiah, the Apostles would have preached about it in Jerusalem. They didn’t because when Paul showed up with his gospel he was nearly killed for preaching heresy.

Ben, Jesus declared Himself to be the Messiah. Do you have any thoughts on this?

No, he did not. I have proved to you already even in this very post. Why are you so stiff necked?

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, since you’re so good at tossing out numbers, do you have any idea how many Catholics were killed by the Nazi’s during this time?

How could I if I am too busy counting six million of my own People? Did you know that Hitler was a born Catholic?
How could I make my business when Catholics are killing Catholics, or Protestants are killing Protestants, or Muslims are killing Muslims? I am still counting the Jews killed by outside religions. I am sorry but you must understanding my plight.

Ben:

 

[NotWorthy]

How could I if I am too busy counting six million of my own People? Did you know that Hitler was a born Catholic?

And how is this even remotely relevant? Are you implying that Catholics had ANYTHING to do with the holocaust. And I warn you, be careful how you answer that if you wish to continue to evangelize us Catholics and other Christians on these forums.

How could I make my business when Catholics are killing Catholics, or Protestants are killing Protestants, or Muslims are killing Muslims? I am still counting the Jews killed by outside religions. I am sorry but you must understanding my plight.

Ben:

No, I don’t understand your plight or your reasoning. What do you mean Jews are killed by outside religions? What religions make their members kill Jews.

 

[adrift]

I meant to say that for six million Jews to be decimated by a born Catholic Hitler, the Catholic Church could have done much more than to save just a few dozens. God Almighty! Can you think of six million people? That’s the population of a sizeable city. I am sorry if I can’t understand the crumbles from the table, so to speak.

Ben:

You are right to call him a born Catholic because he never practiced the Catholic Faith he was not truly Catholic. As you said

And for Edith Stein, she had quit being Jewish from the moment
she decided to become a Catholic. Therefore, she was not Jewish.

However, as an adult, Hitler specifically rejected the Catholic Church, as well as Christianity in general. He described himself as “a complete pagan”.

Not a few dozen

the Vatican was issuing tens of thousands of false documents to allow Jews to pass secretly as Christians so they could escape the Nazis. What is more, the financial aid Pius XII helped provide the Jews was very real. Lichten, Lapide, and other Jewish chroniclers record those funds as being in the millions of dollars—dollars even more valuable then than they are now…“The final number of Jewish lives in whose rescue the Catholic Church had been the instrument is thus at least 700,000 souls, but in all probability it is much closer to . . . 860,000.”[21] This is a total larger than all other Jewish relief organizations in Europe, combined, were able to save. Lapide calculated that Pius XII and the Church he headed constituted the most successful Jewish aid organization in all of Europe during the war, dwarfing the Red Cross and all other aid societies.

It is reported that Hitler killed 11 million people. About 6 million Jews and 5 million other ethnic origins were killed in concentration camps. This is not counting the thousands killed by German soldiers in Russia and Western Europe.

How could I if I am too busy counting six million of my own People? Did you know that Hitler was a born Catholic?
How could I make my business when Catholics are killing Catholics, or Protestants are killing Protestants, or Muslims are killing Muslims? I am still counting the Jews killed by outside religions. I am sorry but you must understanding my plight.

Ben:

No I do not understand how anyone cannot condemn any killing even if it does not effect them. You are counting them? Give me a break in writing such gibberish. It doesn’t matter if there were 11 million killed or one it should be the same reaction of horror. How can we prevent such horror happening again if it is perpetuated with it doesn’t concern me. That attitude is what allowed it to happen in the first place.

 

[motoeric]

I visit Catholic Answers often and I enjoy the dialogue and give and take, but I rarely post.

When seeing the disgusting canard of Vatican compliance with Hitler I feel compelled to say something.

First of all, the willingness of Ben Masada to assert this calumny destroys the willingness of any fair minded reader to give him the benefit of the doubt when he posts anything else (such as his ridiculous claims that Scripture is fine when supporting his argument and insidiously edited when it doesn’t).

The writings of others do a much better job of shedding light on the subject than I could. Here is something from Rabbi Dalin:

Any fair and thorough reading of the evidence demonstrates that Pius XII was a persistent critic of Nazism. Consider just a few highlights of his opposition before the war:

• Of the forty-four speeches Pacelli gave in Germany as papal nuncio between 1917 and 1929, forty denounced some aspect of the emerging Nazi ideology.

• In March 1935, he wrote an open letter to the bishop of Cologne calling the Nazis “false prophets with the pride of Lucifer.”

• That same year, he assailed ideologies “possessed by the superstition of race and blood” to an enormous crowd of pilgrims at Lourdes. At Notre Dame in Paris two years later, he named Germany “that noble and powerful nation whom bad shepherds would lead astray into an ideology of race.”

• The Nazis were “diabolical,” he told friends privately. Hitler “is completely obsessed,” he said to his long-time secretary, Sister Pascalina. “All that is not of use to him, he destroys; . . . this man is capable of trampling on corpses.” Meeting in 1935 with the heroic anti-Nazi Dietrich von Hildebrand, he declared, “There can be no possible reconciliation” between Christianity and Nazi racism; they were like “fire and water.”

• The year after Pacelli became secretary of state in 1930, Vatican Radio was established, essentially under his control. The Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano had an uneven record, though it would improve as Pacelli gradually took charge (extensively reporting Kristallnacht in 1938, for example). But the radio station was always good—making such controversial broadcasts as the request that listeners pray for the persecuted Jews in Germany after the 1935 Nuremberg Legislation.

• It was while Pacelli was his predecessor’s chief adviser that Pius XI made the famous statement to a group of Belgian pilgrims in 1938 that “anti-Semitism is inadmissible; spiritually we are all Semites.” And it was Pacelli who drafted Pius XI’s encyclical Mit brennender Sorge, “With Burning Concern,” a condemnation of Germany among the harshest ever issued by the Holy See. Indeed, throughout the 1930s, Pacelli was widely lampooned in the Nazi press as Pius XI’s “Jew-loving” cardinal, because of the more than fifty-five protests he sent the Germans as the Vatican secretary of state.

To these must be added highlights of Pius XII’s actions during the war:

• His first encyclical, Summi Pontificatus, rushed out in 1939 to beg for peace, was in part a declaration that the proper role of the papacy was to plead to both warring sides rather than to blame one. But it very pointedly quoted St. Paul—“there is neither Gentile nor Jew”—using the word “Jew” specifically in the context of rejecting racial ideology. The New York Times greeted the encyclical with a front-page headline on October 28, 1939: “Pope Condemns Dictators, Treaty Violators, Racism.” Allied airplanes dropped thousands of copies on Germany in an effort to raise anti-Nazi sentiment.

• In 1939 and 1940, Pius acted as a secret intermediary between the German plotters against Hitler and the British. He would similarly risk warning the Allies about the impending German invasions of Holland, Belgium, and France.

• In March 1940, Pius granted an audience to Joachim von Ribbentrop, the German foreign minister and the only high-ranking Nazi to bother visiting the Vatican. The Germans’ understanding of Pius’s position, at least, was clear: Ribbentrop chastised the pope for siding with the Allies. Whereupon Pius began reading from a long list of German atrocities. “In the burning words he spoke to Herr Ribbentrop,” the New York Times reported on March 14, Pius “came to the defense of Jews in Germany and Poland.”

• When French bishops issued pastoral letters in 1942 attacking deportations, Pius sent his nuncio to protest to the Vichy government against “the inhuman arrests and deportations of Jews from the French-occupied zone to Silesia and parts of Russia.” Vatican Radio commented on the bishops’ letters six days in a row—at a time when listening to Vatican Radio was a crime in Germany and Poland for which some were put to death. (“Pope Is Said to Plead for Jews Listed for Removal from France,” the New York Times headline read on August 6, 1942. “Vichy Seizes Jews; Pope Pius Ignored,” the Times reported three weeks later.) In retaliation, in the fall of 1942, Goebbels’s office distributed ten million copies of a pamphlet naming Pius XII as the “pro-Jewish pope” and explicitly citing his interventions in France.

• In the summer of 1944, after the liberation of Rome but before the war’s end, Pius told a group of Roman Jews who had come to thank him for his protection: “For centuries, Jews have been unjustly treated and despised. It is time they were treated with justice and humanity, God wills it and the Church wills it. St. Paul tells us that the Jews are our brothers. They should also be welcomed as friends.”

Eric

 

[Ben_Masada]

No I do not understand how anyone cannot condemn any killing even if it does not effect them. You are counting them? Give me a break in writing such gibberish. It doesn’t matter if there were 11 million killed or one it should be the same reaction of horror. How can we prevent such horror happening again if it is perpetuated with it doesn’t concern me. That attitude is what allowed it to happen in the first place.

Do you know something? I agree with you. That’s indeed the kind of attitude that allowed it to happen in the first place. Whose attitude allowed the death of Jews to climb to six million? That’s my point my friend. If this attitude did not exist on people who could have done a lot to prevent the Holocaust from happening, we would not have lost so many Jesuses. But because of what the Gentiles did to one Jesus two thousand years ago, those who could have done something 60 years ago, were afraid that Hitler could not succeed. Today I am criticized for
criticizing those who could have done more but forbade themselves to interfere.

Ben

 

[Ben_Masada]

When seeing the disgusting canard of Vatican compliance with Hitler I feel compelled to say something.

First of all, the willingness of Ben Masada to assert this calumny destroys the willingness of any fair minded reader to give him the benefit of the doubt when he posts anything else (such as his ridiculous claims that Scripture is fine when supporting his argument and insidiously edited when it doesn’t).

The writings of others do a much better job of shedding light on the subject than I could. Here is something from Rabbi Dalin:

Any fair and thorough reading of the evidence demonstrates that Pius XII was a persistent critic of Nazism. Consider just a few highlights of his opposition before the war:

• Of the forty-four speeches Pacelli gave in Germany as papal nuncio between 1917 and 1929, forty denounced some aspect of the emerging Nazi ideology.

• In March 1935, he wrote an open letter to the bishop of Cologne calling the Nazis “false prophets with the pride of Lucifer.”

• That same year, he assailed ideologies “possessed by the superstition of race and blood” to an enormous crowd of pilgrims at Lourdes. At Notre Dame in Paris two years later, he named Germany “that noble and powerful nation whom bad shepherds would lead astray into an ideology of race.”

• The Nazis were “diabolical,” he told friends privately. Hitler “is completely obsessed,” he said to his long-time secretary, Sister Pascalina. “All that is not of use to him, he destroys; . . . this man is capable of trampling on corpses.” Meeting in 1935 with the heroic anti-Nazi Dietrich von Hildebrand, he declared, “There can be no possible reconciliation” between Christianity and Nazi racism; they were like “fire and water.”

• The year after Pacelli became secretary of state in 1930, Vatican Radio was established, essentially under his control. The Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano had an uneven record, though it would improve as Pacelli gradually took charge (extensively reporting Kristallnacht in 1938, for example). But the radio station was always good—making such controversial broadcasts as the request that listeners pray for the persecuted Jews in Germany after the 1935 Nuremberg Legislation.

• It was while Pacelli was his predecessor’s chief adviser that Pius XI made the famous statement to a group of Belgian pilgrims in 1938 that “anti-Semitism is inadmissible; spiritually we are all Semites.” And it was Pacelli who drafted Pius XI’s encyclical Mit brennender Sorge, “With Burning Concern,” a condemnation of Germany among the harshest ever issued by the Holy See. Indeed, throughout the 1930s, Pacelli was widely lampooned in the Nazi press as Pius XI’s “Jew-loving” cardinal, because of the more than fifty-five protests he sent the Germans as the Vatican secretary of state.

To these must be added highlights of Pius XII’s actions during the war:

• His first encyclical, Summi Pontificatus, rushed out in 1939 to beg for peace, was in part a declaration that the proper role of the papacy was to plead to both warring sides rather than to blame one. But it very pointedly quoted St. Paul—“there is neither Gentile nor Jew”—using the word “Jew” specifically in the context of rejecting racial ideology. The New York Times greeted the encyclical with a front-page headline on October 28, 1939: “Pope Condemns Dictators, Treaty Violators, Racism.” Allied airplanes dropped thousands of copies on Germany in an effort to raise anti-Nazi sentiment.

• In 1939 and 1940, Pius acted as a secret intermediary between the German plotters against Hitler and the British. He would similarly risk warning the Allies about the impending German invasions of Holland, Belgium, and France.

• In March 1940, Pius granted an audience to Joachim von Ribbentrop, the German foreign minister and the only high-ranking Nazi to bother visiting the Vatican. The Germans’ understanding of Pius’s position, at least, was clear: Ribbentrop chastised the pope for siding with the Allies. Whereupon Pius began reading from a long list of German atrocities. “In the burning words he spoke to Herr Ribbentrop,” the New York Times reported on March 14, Pius “came to the defense of Jews in Germany and Poland.”

• When French bishops issued pastoral letters in 1942 attacking deportations, Pius sent his nuncio to protest to the Vichy government against “the inhuman arrests and deportations of Jews from the French-occupied zone to Silesia and parts of Russia.” Vatican Radio commented on the bishops’ letters six days in a row—at a time when listening to Vatican Radio was a crime in Germany and Poland for which some were put to death. (“Pope Is Said to Plead for Jews Listed for Removal from France,” the New York Times headline read on August 6, 1942. “Vichy Seizes Jews; Pope Pius Ignored,” the Times reported three weeks later.) In retaliation, in the fall of 1942, Goebbels’s office distributed ten million copies of a pamphlet naming Pius XII as the “pro-Jewish pope” and explicitly citing his interventions in France.

• In the summer of 1944, after the liberation of Rome but before the war’s end, Pius told a group of Roman Jews who had come to thank him for his protection: “For centuries, Jews have been unjustly treated and despised. It is time they were treated with justice and humanity, God wills it and the Church wills it. St. Paul tells us that the Jews are our brothers. They should also be welcomed as friends.”

Eric

Yes Eric, I wonder why all the “heroism” above had to turn into a mysterious silence when the “Final Solution” for
the Jewish People was decreed. Proof that it was all hypocrisy is that even today Israel isn’t yet recognized as a State by the Vatican. Why? Is it because Israel has become the symbol of survival for the Jewish People? I wonder.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

And how is this even remotely relevant? Are you implying that Catholics had ANYTHING to do with the holocaust. And I warn you, be careful how you answer that if you wish to continue to evangelize us Catholics and other Christians on these forums.

No, I don’t understand your plight or your reasoning. What do you mean Jews are killed by outside religions? What religions make their members kill Jews.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes Eric, I wonder why all the “heroism” above had to turn into a mysterious silence when the “Final Solution” for
the Jewish People was decreed. Proof that it was all hypocrisy is that even today Israel isn’t yet recognized as a State by the Vatican. Why? Is it because Israel has become the symbol of survival for the Jewish People? I wonder.

Ben:

Ben, I could claim that the Vatican cared more for our brother Jews, than the Jews themselves, since the Vatican made more efforts during WWII to protect the Jews from the Nazis than the Jews did.

I’d be about equally as correct as you are here with many of the statements that you’ve made on this subject. Its getting old, Ben.

 

[NotWorthy]

Oh! You don’t understand my plight. No wonder!
Who killed all those thousands of Jews during the Crusades of the 10th, 11th, and 12th Centuries, not Catholics? Who killed all those thousands of Jews during the Inquisition, not the Catholic Church? Do I need to wonder why you do not understand my plight?

Ben:

No, Ben. I don’t understand your plight and I never will. Were you killed in the Crusades? Were you killed in the Inquisition? I don’t think so, unless maybe you’re related to Shirley McClaine!

Ben, I don’t understand your plight because I’d be a liar if I said I did. I’m not Jewish and I never will be. For that I do not apologize.

Do you wish to start up a different thread for those subjects? Go ahead. I won’t participate because I could care less about the misguided lies, exaggerations, and outright fabrications about something that happened 100’s of years ago.

I’m sorry if you don’t like that, but can we please get back to the topic!!! What does the imagined plight of Ben have to do with Apollos?!?

 

[Ben_Masada]

This isn’t quite what I intended to write.

Many were killed by Hitler not just Jews. There were handicapped, Gypsies and other people that Hitler believed were not his “perfect” race.

He was the epitome of evil.

That however does not excuse the bigotry that Ben Masada exhibits. There have been many groups through history that have been persecuted. We as humans must fight against such persecutions. Christians were persecuted in much the same way as the Jews. Christians are still being persecuted. Now our friend will claim my statement is antisemitism that is unfortunate for that attitude is what perpetuates hatred and not an understanding between people. Perhaps his statement is just ignorant and if that is the case than indeed my statement is too harsh and if that is the case I apologize.

What kind of solution is that for evil done? Now, the modern trend to silence the memory of the Jewish Holocaust is the excuse that so were others killed by Hitler. Is that supposed to shut the mouths of Holocaust survivors? How I hear that Catholics too were killed! Does it excuse the mass murder of six million Jews?

I think we should quit this subject, because it has nothing to do with the thread at issue. To look for excuses for the evil done through mass murders only exasperates bad feelings. Therefore, I forbid myself to give any further reply on this subject.

Ben:

 

[motoeric]

Yes Eric, I wonder why all the “heroism” above had to turn into a mysterious silence when the “Final Solution” for
the Jewish People was decreed.

Well, wonder no more. It’s because there was no silence and claims like that are only made by those predisposed to despise the Catholic Church.

If (by some small chance) you are actually interested in the truth, why not listen to what the people most involved in the situation had to say?

From prominent Jews at the time:

As early as December 1940, in an article in Time magazine, Albert Einstein paid tribute to Pius: “Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly.”

In 1943, Chaim Weizmann, who would become Israel’s first president, wrote that “the Holy See is lending its powerful help wherever it can, to mitigate the fate of my persecuted co-religionists.”

Moshe Sharett, Israel’s second prime minister, met with Pius in the closing days of the war and “told him that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews.”

Rabbi Isaac Herzog, Chief Rabbi of Israel, sent a message in February 1944 declaring, “The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion, which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world.”

In September 1945, Leon Kubowitzky, Secretary General of the World Jewish Congress, personally thanked the Pope for his interventions, and the World Jewish Congress donated $20,000 to Vatican charities “in recognition of the work of the Holy See in rescuing Jews from Fascist and Nazi persecutions.”
Goodness and magnanimity

In 1955, when Italy celebrated the tenth anniversary of its liberation, the Union of Italian Jewish Communities proclaimed April 17 a “Day of Gratitude” for the Pope’s wartime assistance. …

To deny the legitimacy of their gratitude to Pius XII is tantamount to denying the credibility of their personal testimony and judgment about the Holocaust itself. “More than all others,” recalled Elio Toaff, an Italian Jew who lived through the Holocaust and later became Chief Rabbi of Rome, “we had the opportunity of experiencing the great compassionate goodness and magnanimity of the Pope during the unhappy years of the persecution and terror, when it seemed that for us there was no longer an escape.”…

If you are still having trouble, let me know and I’ll provide some info on the flip side of the coin. Some opinions from the other group most involved, the Nazis. They vilified the Pope, had documented assassination plans in place and decried him as the ‘Jew loving Pope’.

I don’t hold out much hope, as it is clear that you are not looking for facts here.

Eric

 

[motoeric]

What kind of solution is that for evil done? Now, the modern trend to silence the memory of the Jewish Holocaust is the excuse that so were others killed by Hitler. Is that supposed to shut the mouths of Holocaust survivors? How I hear that Catholics too were killed! Does it excuse the mass murder of six million Jews?

I think we should quit this subject, because it has nothing to do with the thread at issue. To look for excuses for the evil done through mass murders only exasperates bad feelings. Therefore, I forbid myself to give any further reply on this subject.

The intellectual dishonesty here is astounding. Can you point to anyone here who has attempted to excuse the mass murder of 6 million Jews? In essence what you are claiming is that other people are minimizing the horrors of the holocaust without any proof to back that up.

Then, to top things off, you immediately launch into how you are no longer going to discuss the topic that you introduced after laying down a salvo. Nice bit of hit and run.

There is a persistent pattern of faulty eisegisis here where you read into Scripture, history and posts whatever suits your anti-Catholic theories.

Eric

 

[Randy_Carson]

Never. If he had said anything about his resurrection, his apostles would not have considered the news about his resurrection as nonsense and an idle tale. Read Luke 24:11. Moreover, if he had said anything about his resurrection, Mary Magdalene would not have thought that someone had stolen his body from the tomb when she saw the empty tomb and cried desperetaly. Read John 20:13.

**Jesus Predicts His Death **

Mark 8:31
31He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.

His Enemies Recall that He Predicted His Resurrection

Matthew 27:62-64
62The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. 63"Sir," they said, “we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ 64So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first.”

Ben, it was so well-known that Jesus had spoken of his resurrection, that the Jews asked the Romans to guard the tomb.

Why would they do that if Jesus had not spoken of this in advance???