The Metamorphose of Apollos

[Ben_Masada]

Ah, I see, not like our Ben M, here! Good job, brother!
It didn’t seem to stop the numerous Jews that became the first Christians. St. Paul was one of them, wasn’t he? Yeah, that’s right… I believe he was!

**Paul brought the idea already in his mind of a Hellenistic Jew that he was from his Greek homeland of Tarsus in Cilicia, a city famous for its Stoic Platonic University. Perhaps it was there that he got the idea that where Plato failed, he could succeed to build a city governed by “King Philosophers.” **

It didn’t stop millions of Jews from converting. They saw the fulfillment of centuries of patiently waiting for the Messiah.

**“My People perish for lack of knowledge.” (Hosea 4:6) **

Sadly, some haven’t.
I wasn’t aware that he had to wait til the Cardinals reached a consensus. Hmmmmmm…, are you sure about that?

**Are you trying to tell me that a synod of Cardinals are not consulted before any of the Pope’s decisions? **

 

[Danno2281]

The operative word in your original post is “only”. He may; he may not. Again, I suggest you learn what papal infallibility is befoe you decide to treat it with disdain. BTW, did God free the sacred writers from the possibility of error when they were composing the sacred texts? See the connection? The innerancy resides in God Who is Truth itself, as He Himself tells us.

 

[Danno2281]

Danno2281;5285672:

There is nothing you can do to insert Greek Mythology into Judaism. There is absolutely no indication of virgin birth in the mythological sense of Christianity in Psalms or Ezekiel.

But "we": did not "insert" it into Isaiah. The 70 Hebrew scholars who translated the Hebrew of Isaiah into Greek two centuries before "we" arrived on the scene are the ones who saw it. Even if the the highly acclaimed and legendary Septuagint does not merit being counted Judaism in the mind of the sage ben Masada, the fact is that the concept of virgin birth existed within Judaism. You can stamp your feet all you want, but you can't rightly deny it.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

I am talking about the Messiah that Isaiah identifies him with Israel and not the Pauline Hellenistic Messiah that you identify him with Jesus.

I think you would agree that:

1. Isaiah’s Messiah died but was resurrected (“Israel” to “the new Israel”)
2. Isaiah’s Messiah died once for all.
3. The existence of Mankind depends on the existence of Isaiah’s Messiah.
4. Isaiah’s Messiah’s existence can not end.

All goodness comes from the one true God.
How is Isaiah’s Messiah united with the one true God?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Time out.The Hebrew of Isaiah uses the word almah- a young woman of marriageable age which the scholars who translated the Septuagint (ca 200 BC) chose too translate as virgin because only that would make sense in the context. But that is not the word that Amos uses. Your attempt to correlate the one with the other (Isaiah with Amos)cannot stand the scrutiny of the Hebrew text.**

Hi Danno, make that “Time in” again, because I would like to let you know that I have a thread on “Almah versus Betulah.” In this thread you might be able to see that Isaiah with Amos can very well stand the scrutiny of the Hebrew text. I recommend you take a look at that thread. Good luck!

 

[Ben_Masada]

The operative word in your original post is “only”. He may; he may not. Again, I suggest you learn what papal infallibility is befoe you decide to treat it with disdain. BTW, did God free the sacred writers from the possibility of error when they were composing the sacred texts? See the connection? The innerancy resides in God Who is Truth itself, as He Himself tells us.

If the inerrancy resides in God, where was the error or innerrancy in the decision of Pope Innocence III to organize the 4th Crusade which ended up with so much loss of Jewish lives, in the Pope or in God?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5289203:

But "we": did not "insert" it into Isaiah. The 70 Hebrew scholars who translated the Hebrew of Isaiah into Greek two centuries before "we" arrived on the scene are the ones who saw it. Even if the the highly acclaimed and legendary Septuagint does not merit being counted Judaism in the mind of the sage ben Masada, the fact is that the concept of virgin birth existed within Judaism. You can stamp your feet all you want, but you can't rightly deny it.

You just mention to me where in Isaiah you think the concept of virgin birth exists in Judaism and we can talk. If you are referring to Isaiah 7:14, I think I have already recommended you my thread on “Almah versus Betulah.” You are completely mistake about such a concept in Judaism. This concept was born in the Greek time of Mythology and copied by Paul, who was a Hellenistic Jew before he apostatized to found Christianity.

 

[NotWorthy]

If the inerrancy resides in God, where was the error or innerrancy in the decision of Pope Innocence III to organize the 4th Crusade which ended up with so much loss of Jewish lives, in the Pope or in God?

Uhhhhhh, are you going back to that tired old rhetoric again, Ben? Did you ever provide any proof that Pope Innocence organized the 4th Crusade and then said, “Now, go kill those filthy Jews”?

 

[Ben_Masada]

I think you would agree that:

1. Isaiah’s Messiah died but was resurrected (“Israel” to “the new Israel”)

 

[Ben_Masada]

Uhhhhhh, are you going back to that tired old rhetoric again, Ben? Did you ever provide any proof that Pope Innocence organized the 4th Crusade and then said, “Now, go kill those filthy Jews”?

Wow! I have just read this week in the Library about “The Pope’s Crusade.” I can get there tomorrow and bring the book’s information. But how will that help you? When one is blindly determined to defend his faith, he or she will deny anything. But I’ll try. Tomorrow I’ll get the proofs if you insist.

 

[NotWorthy]

But how will that help you? When one is blindly determined to defend his faith, he or she will deny anything. But I’ll try. Tomorrow I’ll get the proofs if you insist.

Ok, so which one of us is the Pot? And which one of us is the Kettle? I’m confused.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

I’m trying to clarify what you believe.

Through the same relation of a Father to his son, if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My son…"

If you mean concieved son (rather than adopted),
You are saying that the Messiah is God.
Are you saying that a Tribe is God?

Also,

The relationship between a father and a son,
Is one of obedience and love.
And of love for others.

Considering all that we have discussed,
How would you interpret:

For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and righteousness will have fullness of life; but those who commit sin are the enemies of their own lives (Tobit 12:9-10).

 

[Danno2281]

If the inerrancy resides in God, where was the error or innerrancy in the decision of Pope Innocence III to organize the 4th Crusade which ended up with so much loss of Jewish lives, in the Pope or in God?

One more time. Please learn what papal infallibility is. The Bishop of Rome, successor of Peter, cannot err when speaking definitively in his official capacity (ex cathedra) in teaching what must be believed as a matter of faith or what must be done or not done in matters of morals. Urging to repentence, for example, would not be covered by infallibility;
calling for a crusade would not be covered by infallibility; pleading for peace would not be covered.
In the mater of the 4th Crusade, are you aware that the pope excommunicated those crusaders for attacking a town in Hungary (whose name escapes me) at the behest of the Venetian money lenders? Just an aside, but you might place the blame on those who were excommunicated rather than upon the pope who excommunicated them.

 

[Danno2281]

Danno2281;5289481:

You just mention to me where in Isaiah you think the concept of virgin birth exists in Judaism and we can talk. If you are referring to Isaiah 7:14, I think I have already recommended you my thread on “Almah versus Betulah.” You are completely mistake about such a concept in Judaism. This concept was born in the Greek time of Mythology and copied by Paul, who was a Hellenistic Jew before he apostatized to found Christianity.

I have read the referenced post. Sadly you’ve missed the point that I make. You can theorize all you want, but the fact remains that those Hebrerw sages of 200 years before Paul did not agree with you or they would not have chosen the same word in Amos and in Isaiah. It is they who first made the connection, not Paul, not Christians, Hebrew sages who somehow disagree with your insight. Please ben M.,while observing this Sabbath, reflect upon how you stand apart from all the sages of the past, how you see what even the Talmud fails to, what others of your people reject. And pray.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I’m trying to clarify what you believe.

If you mean concieved son (rather than adopted),
You are saying that the Messiah is God.
Are you saying that a Tribe is God?

Also,

The relationship between a father and a son,
Is one of obedience and love.
And of love for others.

Considering all that we have discussed,
How would you interpret:

**I am talking about Judaism. There is no such a thing as God begetting a son with a woman on earth. I am saying what Exodus 4:22,23 says that the Messiah is son of God. A Tribe God! I don’t think you are being serious. Otherwise, it’s too embarrassing.

Regarding the relation between a Father and a son being the one of obedience and love, that’s exactly what it is as far as Judaism is concern. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

One more time. Please learn what papal infallibility is. The Bishop of Rome, successor of Peter, cannot err when speaking definitively in his official capacity (ex cathedra) in teaching what must be believed as a matter of faith or what must be done or not done in matters of morals. Urging to repentence, for example, would not be covered by infallibility;
calling for a crusade would not be covered by infallibility; pleading for peace would not be covered.
In the mater of the 4th Crusade, are you aware that the pope excommunicated those crusaders for attacking a town in Hungary (whose name escapes me) at the behest of the Venetian money lenders? Just an aside, but you might place the blame on those who were excommunicated rather than upon the pope who excommunicated them.

**The Bishop of Rome is not and never was a successor of Peter. Peter was never a Christian. Peter was a Nazarene Jew. It’s high time to stop with this cop-out to document the Church with Apostolical credibility. It’s much more logical that the Bishop of Rome is a successor of Paul and not of Peter.

And about doing or not something in matters of morals, as you include within the infallibility of the Pope, can you explain to me how moral was to organize a Crusade? **

 

[Danno2281]

**The Bishop of Rome is not and never was a successor of Peter. Peter was never a Christian. Peter was a Nazarene Jew. It’s high time to stop with this cop-out to document the Church with Apostolical credibility. It’s much more logical that the Bishop of Rome is a successor of Paul and not of Peter.

And about doing or not something in matters of morals, as you include within the infallibility of the Pope, can you explain to me how moral was to organize a Crusade? **

Ah, once again the great ben M. sees what the poor, ignorant masses have been misled into believing. His revisionist history is, of course, the most sane way to view the world as he wishes it. Sorry, but the facts just will not bear you out. Do some serious research and learn. Give evidence, b. Masada, not opionion. Tell us whose body was buried where that inscription is. Tell us what historical evidence supports you, child of Masada, a circumstance perpetrated by the lie of Aquiba. You have chosen your name well.
The infallibility concerns a moral imperative, or does the word “must” have no meaning in your revisionist vocabulary. A crusade to defend against militant Islam is certainly more moral than to give deliberately false testimony about bar Kochba and thereby cause the bloodshed of one’s people, but it does not fall within the realm of infallibility.I suspect that your seeming intellectual density is contrived, but it does no one any good.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ah, once again the great ben M. sees what the poor, ignorant masses have been misled into believing. His revisionist history is, of course, the most sane way to view the world as he wishes it. Sorry, but the facts just will not bear you out. Do some serious research and learn. Give evidence, b. Masada, not opionion. Tell us whose body was buried where that inscription is. Tell us what historical evidence supports you, child of Masada, a circumstance perpetrated by the lie of Aquiba. You have chosen your name well.
The infallibility concerns a moral imperative, or does the word “must” have no meaning in your revisionist vocabulary. A crusade to defend against militant Islam is certainly more moral than to give deliberately false testimony about bar Kochba and thereby cause the bloodshed of one’s people, but it does not fall within the realm of infallibility.I suspect that your seeming intellectual density is contrived, but it does no one any good.

**Hey! Why did you get so uptight? I am just following up what you said yourself. Review your post. You said that the infallibility of the Pope includes decisions on morals, and I just asked for an explanation about what morals you see in the organization of a Crusade, when Innocence III knew very well what Crusades did best, which was murder. Is it the end of the world to admit that Popes are just humans like all of us? That’s all you needed to admit, and I would have left you alone. Jesus Christ! **

 

[Danno2281]

**Hey! Why did you get so uptight? I am just following up what you said yourself. Review your post. You said that the infallibility of the Pope includes decisions on morals, and I just asked for an explanation about what morals you see in the organization of a Crusade, when Innocence III knew very well what Crusades did best, which was murder. Is it the end of the world to admit that Popes are just humans like all of us? That’s all you needed to admit, and I would have left you alone. Jesus Christ! **

Your know well that it offends us to use His name in that fashion, but you do. Should I perceive ill will here? Crusades, like any wars, kill. They are not intended to murder, as you well know being a member of the people who fought the first religious wars in recorded history, in fact wars of aggression against an enemy who had done you no injustice. Now please read what I wrote again and perhaps it will sink in. I certainly admit that the pope is human, fallible just like all of us, except when speaking with the authority of Jesus, the Christ, God’s eternal knowledge of Himself Who became flesh.
Do you understand the word “must”? Do you know what is meant by a moral imperative? Perhaps the child of Masada would do well to invest in a dictionary.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Wow! I have just read this week in the Library about “The Pope’s Crusade.” I can get there tomorrow and bring the book’s information. But how will that help you? When one is blindly determined to defend his faith, he or she will deny anything. But I’ll try. Tomorrow I’ll get the proofs if you insist.

**To NotWorthy

Okay NotWorthy, here is what I promised. The title of the book is, “The Popes and the Jews in the Meddle Ages.” by Edward A. Synan with the imprimatur of Francis Cardinal Spellman, Archbishop of NY. 1965, pages 98,99 for the chapter on Pope Innocence III and the Crusades. **