The Metamorphose of Apollos

[Ben_Masada]

Perhaps you might look at a litle history: Moses - 1300 BC - God gives Israel promised land. God chastises, but defends Israel, using her neighbors to chastise her. Now, for more time than all of her existence in that land, she lacks the encouagement of prophets and writings inspired by God, encouragements still given to her in her earlier chastisements. What great wrong transpired to bring about so dreadful a chastisement? A little longer, you say. Your “little longer” is longer that the whole time from Moses to Jesus! What great wrong have you done! The first temple was destroyed because of the innocent blood spilled by Manassah (2Kgs:24,4), but it was allowed to be rebuilt. What even greater crime brought aout the destruction of the second temple, a temple that has not been rebuilt? There are none so blind as those who will not see.

**Tell me something, Danno, are you trying to say that we crucified thousands of Jews during Roman occupation? Please, don’t come to me with the Pauline rhetoric that Jesus was the only Jew to be crucified by the Romans because I am going to send you right back to Josephus.

First, read Josephus before you adopt any Pauline rhetoric. If not for anything else, it’s not fair to the others, who went through the same sort of agonies and sufferings; no more no less.

Besides, if you allow yourself to travel in time to the 19th Century, one million and a half children who didn’t know their right from their left were cruelly put to death, many of them thrown alive in crematoria. I am sure Jesus would be glad not to have suffered that much.

Moreover, Jesus had the luxury of a trial. What did those children have to die like lambs for the only sin of being Jewish? Please Danno, have mercy on yourself!**

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, NotWorthy, I suspected where you were coming from. I visited the Park of the Righteous Gentiles. I held myself back from pronouncing some of the words above in your post, because the plate at the entrance of the Park is in honor to the Righteous Gentiles, who went out of their way to save Jews during the Holocaust. I don’t recall to have seen any private mention of the Pope. The problem with me is that the number of those who didn’t get rescued was so catastrophicly high that I need glasses to see those who saved some. Europe had hardly more than six million Jews.

That’s good to know, thanks for filling in some of the hazy spots.

But, while cleaning your glasses, you might remember that these righteous Gentiles were comparatively un-armed and doing what they could against one of the swiftest and mightiest armies the modern world had ever seen. Another problem with those catastrophically high numbers is that the rest of the world had little or no clue as to the magnitude of the destruction. It was simply inconceivable to imagine what man can do against his brother. It’s what happens when we forget history… sadly, it often repeats itself.

 

[Danno2281]

**Tell me something, Danno, are you trying to say that we crucified thousands of Jews during Roman occupation? Please, don’t come to me with the Pauline rhetoric that Jesus was the only Jew to be crucified by the Romans because I am going to send you right back to Josephus.

First, read Josephus before you adopt any Pauline rhetoric. If not for anything else, it’s not fair to the others, who went through the same sort of agonies and sufferings; no more no less.

Besides, if you allow yourself to travel in time to the 19th Century, one million and a half children who didn’t know their right from their left were cruelly put to death, many of them thrown alive in crematoria. I am sure Jesus would be glad not to have suffered that much.

Moreover, Jesus had the luxury of a trial. What did those children have to die like lambs for the only sin of being Jewish? Please Danno, have mercy on yourself!**

 

[Danno2281]

**Tell me something, Danno, are you trying to say that we crucified thousands of Jews during Roman occupation? Please, don’t come to me with the Pauline rhetoric that Jesus was the only Jew to be crucified by the Romans because I am going to send you right back to Josephus.

First, read Josephus before you adopt any Pauline rhetoric. If not for anything else, it’s not fair to the others, who went through the same sort of agonies and sufferings; no more no less.

Besides, if you allow yourself to travel in time to the 19th Century, one million and a half children who didn’t know their right from their left were cruelly put to death, many of them thrown alive in crematoria. I am sure Jesus would be glad not to have suffered that much.

Moreover, Jesus had the luxury of a trial. What did those children have to die like lambs for the only sin of being Jewish? Please Danno, have mercy on yourself!**

I am familiar with Josephus, and I am certainly not accusing anyone of crucifying all those Jews. But if you take a look at Acts: 2, 22-35, you’ll see exactly the crime I’m alluding to.
The innocnt dragged into court on false charges with perjured witness do not consider the trial a luxury.
I believe that you mean the 20th century, but there have been countless numbers throughout history who have been massacred because of their ethnicity. Just ask the Armenians, the Tutsi or the Hutu, or even Amelekites.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Now, your avoiding questions.

I’m very serious.

There is a group that considers itself as God.
They go by many names.
Who have their own way of world domination.

So let me ask you again,

Are you saying that a Tribe is God, yes or no?
And
Are you a member of that tribe?

And again,

Considering all that we have discussed,
How would you interpret Tobit 12:9-10?

**I interpret Tobit 12:9,10 as one of those exaggerations humans appeal to when they want to exploit people’s feelings. Otherwise, where on earth almsgiving saves anyone from death? Nothing can save anyone from death. You don’t even need to get off verse 9 to have a contradicltion if you interpret the whole thing literally. "Those who regularly give alms shall enjoy full life. Why not endless life? Verse 10 is true in the sense that we are responsible for our own actions. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

That’s good to know, thanks for filling in some of the hazy spots.

But, while cleaning your glasses, you might remember that these righteous Gentiles were comparatively un-armed and doing what they could against one of the swiftest and mightiest armies the modern world had ever seen. Another problem with those catastrophically high numbers is that the rest of the world had little or no clue as to the magnitude of the destruction. It was simply inconceivable to imagine what man can do against his brother. It’s what happens when we forget history… sadly, it often repeats itself.

**Oh! In that case, it’s okay for me to remember and to remind of the Holocaust from time to time. That’s a magic way to avoid repeatition. But I think that better yet than to remember and to remind, it’s the State of Israel. Any nation with a thirst for Jewish blood will think twice. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

I am familiar with Josephus, and I am certainly not accusing anyone of crucifying all those Jews. But if you take a look at Acts: 2, 22-35, you’ll see exactly the crime I’m alluding to.
The innocnt dragged into court on false charges with perjured witness do not consider the trial a luxury.
I believe that you mean the 20th century, but there have been countless numbers throughout history who have been massacred because of their ethnicity. Just ask the Armenians, the Tutsi or the Hutu, or even Amelekites.

**First of all sorry for my mistake about the 20th Century. I think I said 19th. My mistake. Now, I am glad you have mentioned yet other peoples. It means you won’t have to exaggerate the case of Jesus.

Regarding Acts 2, that speech was never delivered and much less by Peter. That speech was written all right but never delivered. Even if it had been delivered, the speaker was not Jewish if you read Acts 2:14. A Jew would never introduce himself with, “You who are Jews here in Jerusalem, listen to what I have to say…” Furthermore, the writer of that speech was an anti-Semite to accuse the Jews with having crucified Jesus. Peter was a Nazarene Jew and not an anti-Semite. He knew that the Romans had crucified Jesus and not the Jews.**

 

[NotWorthy]

**I interpret Tobit 12:9,10 as one of those exaggerations humans appeal to when they want to exploit people’s feelings. Otherwise, where on earth almsgiving saves anyone from death? Nothing can save anyone from death. You don’t even need to get off verse 9 to have a contradicltion if you interpret the whole thing literally. "Those who regularly give alms shall enjoy full life. Why not endless life? Verse 10 is true in the sense that we are responsible for our own actions. **

Really? Alms and intercessory prayer have no effect on God? :bigyikes: I’m glad nobody told that to Judas Maccabeus.

 

[NotWorthy]

**Oh! In that case, it’s okay for me to remember and to remind of the Holocaust from time to time. **Dear Ben, do you remember why you brought up the holocaust, to remind us how the Pope and the Church were silent and didn’t lift a finger to help our Jewish Brothers? That’s not a “rememberance”, that’s a fabrication… one that some people may find offensive.

**That’s a magic way to avoid repeatition. But I think that better yet than to remember and to remind, it’s the State of Israel. Any nation with a thirst for Jewish blood will think twice. **

Our Jewish brothers, what some of us Americans call the “Pit Bulls of the Middle East” have taught their Arab neighbors more than once what happens when you mess with Israel. Personally, I applaud your efforts. But I’m not sure what that has to do with the topic, no matter how far its wandered off of our Good Apollos.

 

[NotWorthy]

**First of all sorry for my mistake about the 20th Century. I think I said 19th. My mistake. Now, I am glad you have mentioned yet other peoples. It means you won’t have to exaggerate the case of Jesus.

Regarding Acts 2, that speech was never delivered and much less by Peter. That speech was written all right but never delivered. Even if it had been delivered, the speaker was not Jewish if you read Acts 2:14. A Jew would never introduce himself with, “You who are Jews here in Jerusalem, listen to what I have to say…” Furthermore, the writer of that speech was an anti-Semite to accuse the Jews with having crucified Jesus. Peter was a Nazarene Jew and not an anti-Semite. He knew that the Romans had crucified Jesus and not the Jews.**

Ben, you kill me with this ****!

 

[Ben_Masada]

Really? Alms and intercessory prayer have no effect on God? :bigyikes: I’m glad nobody told that to Judas Maccabeus.

**Hey NotWorthy, please, do not disappoint me. I have you in a much higher level than that. There is nothing we can do which will have an effect on God. What God are you talking about, a God that can change accordling to the actions of man? How can the Incorporeal suffer from human effects?

Regarding Judas Maccabeus, tell me about it. I think you are misinterpreting whatever you are connecting him with. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Dear Ben, do you remember why you brought up the holocaust, to remind us how the Pope and the Church were silent and didn’t lift a finger to help our Jewish Brothers? That’s not a “rememberance”, that’s a fabrication… one that some people may find offensive.

Our Jewish brothers, what some of us Americans call the “Pit Bulls of the Middle East” have taught their Arab neighbors more than once what happens when you mess with Israel. Personally, I applaud your efforts. But I’m not sure what that has to do with the topic, no matter how far its wandered off of our Good Apollos.

Oh yes, the theme of our topic. I have noticed that when people start inserting other issues which have nothing to do with the topic, it’s because they have run out of whatever to say about it. But I always welcome a return to the thread.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, you kill me with this ****!

Well, my friend, you can laugh all your way to the Bank, but it’s better to adopt my views on the matter than to dig more contradictions in the NT.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hey NotWorthy, please, do not disappoint me. I have you in a much higher level than that. There is nothing we can do which will have an effect on God. What God are you talking about, a God that can change accordling to the actions of man? How can the Incorporeal suffer from human effects?

**You and I know that. But Moses didn’t hesitate to intercede on behalf of Israel when God said He was going to wipe them out in the desert (was it Meribah?). And God reacted favorably to his intercessions. Abraham certainly didn’t hesitate to intercede on behalf of 10 people in Sodom (who turned out to be about 6 short, evidently).

**

**Regarding Judas Maccabeus, tell me about it. I think you are misinterpreting whatever you are connecting him with. **

Didn’t our good Judas M and his comrades raise funds and send them to the Temple on behalf of the idol-toting soldiers that died in battle? They offered them as prayers for their dead brethren, which is fitting. (paraphrasing).

 

[Ben_Masada]

**You and I know that. But Moses didn’t hesitate to intercede on behalf of Israel when God said He was going to wipe them out in the desert (was it Meribah?). And God reacted favorably to his intercessions. Abraham certainly didn’t hesitate to intercede on behalf of 10 people in Sodom (who turned out to be about 6 short, evidently).

**Didn’t our good Judas M and his comrades raise funds and send them to the Temple on behalf of the idol-toting soldiers that died in battle? They offered them as prayers for their dead brethren, which is fitting. (paraphrasing).

**Please, don’t try to push anything on me out of your memory! It’s not always that you will succeed. I think I asked you to quote where in the book of the Maccabees you are putting up theses claims.

And regarding Moses interceding with God in prayer, I do not rule out the fact from the side of Moses, but a confirmation in terms of the expected results must have come to Moses in a vision or lucid dream. The case of Abraham it was definitely in a vision. That’s how God communicates with a Prophet. **

 

[Danno2281]

**First of all sorry for my mistake about the 20th Century. I think I said 19th. My mistake. Now, I am glad you have mentioned yet other peoples. It means you won’t have to exaggerate the case of Jesus.

Regarding Acts 2, that speech was never delivered and much less by Peter. That speech was written all right but never delivered. Even if it had been delivered, the speaker was not Jewish if you read Acts 2:14. A Jew would never introduce himself with, “You who are Jews here in Jerusalem, listen to what I have to say…” Furthermore, the writer of that speech was an anti-Semite to accuse the Jews with having crucified Jesus. Peter was a Nazarene Jew and not an anti-Semite. He knew that the Romans had crucified Jesus and not the Jews.**

Peter wa not a Judean, not a Nazarene Judean or any other kind. His speech carries the answer for the lack of favor on God’s part over the last 2000 years, and that favor will not be restored until repentence for so heinous a crime occurs. Again, for those slow of understanding, (or blind because thy will not see).
One of the problems with our understanding is that we do not hear what those before us in time heard as they heard it.The word “Jew” is a case in point. When we use that word today we mean those who follow only the Mosaic covenant. But the word actually designated an inhabitant of Judea (as opposed to Galilee or the diaspora for instance). This is why, especially in John’s gospel, the disciples speak of “Jews” with a certain disparagement, for it was not the Hebrews (remember that Nathaniel is referred to as an Isrealite)who opposed Christ), but the opposition came from Judeans specifically. Judaioi are primarily inhabitants of Judea, not to be considered synonymous with Hebrews or even Israelites. Peter, a Galilean, means men of Judea when he speaks of Jews…

 

[NotWorthy]

**Please, don’t try to push anything on me out of your memory! It’s not always that you will succeed. I think I asked you to quote where in the book of the Maccabees you are putting up theses claims. **

I’m sorry, I keep forgetting that, though once you guys considered this Scriptural, you felt the need to remove it from the Holy Scriptures.

My Bad

2 Mac 12:43-46:

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;*** 44 ****** for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.****** 45 ****** But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.****** 46 ****** Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.***

 

[Ben_Masada]

I’m sorry, I keep forgetting that, though once you guys considered this Scriptural, you felt the need to remove it from the Holy Scriptures.

My Bad

2 Mac 12:43-46:

**NotWorthy, I am replying to this one from my office at work.
I have jotted down the passage to check it out when I get back home. I don’t have a Bible with the Apocrypha here with me. But if it is exactly as you have quoted, you can see why we have removed I and II Maccabees from the Scriptures. That’s an evidence that we do not believe in physical resurrection. And that included Jesus also, who was a learnt Jew. It means that any reference to him as resurrection is concern, was an interpolation. **

 

[NotWorthy]

NotWorthy, I am replying to this one from my office at work.
I have jotted down the passage to check it out when I get back home. I don’t have a Bible with the Apocrypha here with me. Since when is it called Apocryphal? I thought you guys considered it 2nd canon.

But if it is exactly as you have quoted, you can see why we have removed I and II Maccabees from the Scriptures.

That’s an interesting turn of phrase you used, Ben. "We removed it from Scriptures".

 

[NotWorthy]

Peter wa not a Judean, not a Nazarene Judean or any other kind. His speech carries the answer for the lack of favor on God’s part over the last 2000 years, and that favor will not be restored until repentence for so heinous a crime occurs. Again, for those slow of understanding, (or blind because thy will not see).

What do you mean by that?!? What favor will not restored until repentance for what heinous crime?

You lost me on this one. I certainly hope you don’t believe that Ben and his fellows Jews need to repent for killing Christ?