The Metamorphose of Apollos

[Danno2281]

**NotWorthy, I am replying to this one from my office at work.
I have jotted down the passage to check it out when I get back home. I don’t have a Bible with the Apocrypha here with me. But if it is exactly as you have quoted, you can see why we have removed I and II Maccabees from the Scriptures. That’s an evidence that we do not believe in physical resurrection. And that included Jesus also, who was a learnt Jew. It means that any reference to him as resurrection is concern, was an interpolation. **

Child of Masada, it supports the resurrection " for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again…" Try reading before responding.

 

[NotWorthy]

Child of Masada, it supports the resurrection " for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again…" Try reading before responding.

That’s his point. The book supports the resurrection, but Jewish thought doesn’t. That’s why the book was removed from the Scriptures.

 

[Danno2281]

What do you mean by that?!? What favor will not restored until repentance for what heinous crime?

You lost me on this one. I certainly hope you don’t believe that Ben and his fellows Jews need to repent for killing Christ?

The need is for repentence for the continuing disbelief in and rejection of God’s anointed, God’s plan of salvation. For so long as they persist in their disbelief, for just so long will they be estranged from the favor that God wshes to lavish upon them. They need to repent for that rejection and be baptized.

 

[Danno2281]

Since when is it called Apocryphal? I thought you guys considered it 2nd canon.

That’s an interesting turn of phrase you used, Ben. "We removed it from Scriptures".

The word deutero-canoncal was coined around the time of the Reformation, actually by a convert from Judaism to Catholicism. For the Jamnia synod, it was just a rejected book.

 

[NotWorthy]

The need is for repentence for the continuing disbelief in and rejection of God’s anointed, God’s plan of salvation. For so long as they persist in their disbelief, for just so long will they be estranged from the favor that God wshes to lavish upon them. They need to repent for that rejection and be baptized.

That’s the same thing every human needs to do, Repent, believe and obey. But you used the term “repent from their heinous crime”. That scared me.

 

[Danno2281]

That’s his point. The book supports the resurrection, but Jewish thought doesn’t. That’s why the book was removed from the Scriptures.

It may be that some in Judaism reject the resurrection of the dead, and it may be that, like the Sadducees, b. Masada, rejects it. but he does not speak for Judaism, as is evident from his lonely take on the Messiah. Mainstream belief is that when the Messianic age arrives, the pious dead will roll underground (gilgul neshamot) until they reach the Holy Land at which point they will rise again (techiyat hamaytim).

 

[NotWorthy]

It may be that some in Judaism reject the resurrection of the dead, and it may be that, like the Sadducees, b. Masada, rejects it. but he does not speak for Judaism, as is evident from his lonely take on the Messiah. Mainstream belief is that when the Messianic age arrives, the pious dead will roll underground (gilgul neshamot) until they reach the Holy Land at which point they will rise again (techiyat hamaytim).

Yes, that is the way I understand it, as is evidenced by the words of Mary (or is it Martha) just prior to the resurrection of Lazarus.

Although I wasn’t familiar with the *techiyat hamaytim.
*

 

[Ben_Masada]

Since when is it called Apocryphal? I thought you guys considered it 2nd canon.

That’s an interesting turn of phrase you used, Ben. "We removed it from Scriptures".

**Not removed. I am sorry for the wrong use of the term here.
Removed if they had been previously part of the Scriptures. They were not approved to take part in the Jewish Canon of the Tanach. And especially for passages like those which adopt intercession for the dead and physical resurrection that contradict the canonic books. **

 

[Danno2281]

**Not removed. I am sorry for the wrong use of the term here.
Removed if they had been previously part of the Scriptures. They were not approved to take part in the Jewish Canon of the Tanach. And especially for passages like those which adopt intercession for the dead and physical resurrection that contradict the canonic books. **

Ah, the great light of Judaism knows so much more than those others! More than Rambam (Moses b. Maimon, or Maimonides), who included belief in a bodily resurrection as one of the 13 that define Judaism, more than the Shemoneh esrei, recited thrice dailyby pious Jews, which includes references to the resurrection in the second blessing, How blessed we are to have such a light from the East to brighten our days! Perhaps, child of Masada, you might wish to find a site with your lantzmen and let your light shine upon them as well. Or would they simply ignore your strange musings as those of some poor, deluded soul, much like the poor, deluded Bar Kochba whose memory he evokes? Go to them, bring them your message of salvation through a state begun with terrorism (the Kng David hotel among so many other terrorist acts by Irgun and Hagana).
Do you see, b. Masda, what you look like? Please, take counsel with others who also know your scriptures, and let the scriptures inform your thinking rather than imposing your thinking upon them. Please, for the sake of your immortal soul.

 

[NotWorthy]

**Not removed. I am sorry for the wrong use of the term here.
Removed if they had been previously part of the Scriptures. They were not approved to take part in the Jewish Canon of the Tanach. And especially for passages like those which adopt intercession for the dead and physical resurrection that contradict the canonic books. **

No, my friend. I think that your Freudian Slip was rather correct.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ah, the great light of Judaism knows so much more than those others! More than Rambam (Moses b. Maimon, or Maimonides), who included belief in a bodily resurrection as one of the 13 that define Judaism, more than the Shemoneh esrei, recited thrice dailyby pious Jews, which includes references to the resurrection in the second blessing, How blessed we are to have such a light from the East to brighten our days! Perhaps, child of Masada, you might wish to find a site with your lantzmen and let your light shine upon them as well. Or would they simply ignore your strange musings as those of some poor, deluded soul, much like the poor, deluded Bar Kochba whose memory he evokes? Go to them, bring them your message of salvation through a state begun with terrorism (the Kng David hotel among so many other terrorist acts by Irgun and Hagana).
Do you see, b. Masda, what you look like? Please, take counsel with others who also know your scriptures, and let the scriptures inform your thinking rather than imposing your thinking upon them. Please, for the sake of your immortal soul.

**Congratultions on your satirical discourse. But I would not count my blessings by bringing Maimonides to your side because he never identified his view of resurrection as physical resurrection or Messiah as an individual Messiah.

And to think of it, what was the meaning for the satire above? We don’t have the books of Maccabees as part of the Tanach. I would be torn indeed with those admitances of resurrection and dead consciousness if those books were part of our Bible… The fact that they don’t figure in our Tanach only corroborates my views that physical resurrection is not an item of Judaism.

You are bluffing about Maimonides. You would be scandalized if you read what he says in his “Guide for the Perplexed” about people who refers to God as a corporeal Being or exhibiting anthropomorphic attributes. So, save your breath. I haven’t rest my case yet.

Besides, we don’t have immortal souls. Immortality only God has it. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

No, my friend. I think that your Freudian Slip was rather correct.

It would indeed have been a Freudian slip if the books of Maccabees were part of our Tanach. It means, I was saved by the bell.

 

[Danno2281]

**Congratultions on your satirical discourse. But I would not count my blessings by bringing Maimonides to your side because he never identified his view of resurrection as physical resurrection or Messiah as an individual Messiah.

And to think of it, what was the meaning for the satire above? We don’t have the books of Maccabees as part of the Tanach. I would be torn indeed with those admitances of resurrection and dead consciousness if those books were part of our Bible… The fact that they don’t figure in our Tanach only corroborates my views that physical resurrection is not an item of Judaism.

You are bluffing about Maimonides. You would be scandalized if you read what he says in his “Guide for the Perplexed” about people who refers to God as a corporeal Being or exhibiting anthropomorphic attributes. So, save your breath. I haven’t rest my case yet.

Besides, we don’t have immortal souls. Immortality only God has it. **

"The closest that anyone has ever come to creating a widely-accepted list of Jewish beliefs is Rambam’s thirteen principles of faith. Rambam’s thirteen principles of faith, which he thought were the minimum requirements of Jewish belief, are:

G-d exists
G-d is one and unique
G-d is incorporeal
G-d is eternal
Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
The words of the prophets are true
Moses’ prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
There will be no other Torah
G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
The Messiah will come
The dead will be resurrected "

Please, in your wisdom, tell us what kind of a resurrection (“rising again”)could be other than physical. In what would it consist? The “resurrected” would not be humans resurrected, for humans have bodies. What, then is your non-physical resurrection?

Scandalized? Hardly. When you say anthropomorphic attributes, do you mean things like anger or regret that Moses talks about as attitudes of God, or do mean things like “Bow down Your ear to me” (Ps 31,2and “The right hand of te LORD has struck with power”?(Ps118: 16), to name just a few of David’s phrases?
Needless to say, you have completely ignored the previous post where I mentioned techyat hamaytim. The real point is that you are out of step with your fellows
What about the second blessing of the Amidah- “O King, Thou helper, Redeemer, and shield, be Thou praised, O Lord, Shield of Abraham. Thou, O Lord, art mighty forever. Thou callest the dead to immortal life, for thou art mighty in deliverance”?
Wow! Immortal life.When your pet theory is challenged, you just ignore the evidence. Is that intellectually honest?

 

[Ben_Masada]

"

The Messiah will come
The dead will be resurrected "

**Focus here on these two items: “The Messiah will come” and “The dead will be resurrected.” Now, read Isaiah 53:8,9. When the Jews go into exile, it means that they are cut off from the Land of the living which is the Land of Israel and graves are assigned to them among the Gentiles. This means that the Jews are dead in exile because they have been cut off from the Land of the living.

Now, for the resurrection, you can read in Ezekiel 37:12 to see that when the exile is over, the Lord opens the graves of the Jews and brings them back into the Land of the living. Or Land of Israel. That’s what Maimonides meant and he could not contradict the Scriptures.
**

 

[Danno2281]

**Focus here on these two items: “The Messiah will come” and “The dead will be resurrected.” Now, read Isaiah 53:8,9. When the Jews go into exile, it means that they are cut off from the Land of the living which is the Land of Israel and graves are assigned to them among the Gentiles. This means that the Jews are dead in exile because they have been cut off from the Land of the living.

Now, for the resurrection, you can read in Ezekiel 37:12 to see that when the exile is over, the Lord opens the graves of the Jews and brings them back into the Land of the living. Or Land of Israel. That’s what Maimonides meant and he could not contradict the Scriptures.
**

Please don’t balme Maimonides. That is what you mean, but you can’t substantiate it with anything more than your say so. The text says “the land of Israel” and nowhere does it state that Israel is the land of the living, only that the dead will be restored to life, life in Israel. You see what you want to see. Now, of course the Amidah couldn’t possibly (uh, how old is it?) be written by rabbis who had your great vision or understood Ezekiel so well as you, now could it?

 

[Danno2281]

Please don’t balme Maimonides. That is what you mean, but you can’t substantiate it with anything more than your say so. The text says “the land of Israel” and nowhere does it state that Israel is the land of the living, only that the dead will be restored to life, life in Israel. You see what you want to see. Now, of course the Amidah couldn’t possibly (uh, how old is it?) be written by rabbis who had your great vision or understood Ezekiel so well as you, now could it?

I trust that you are aware of what I did not say specifically - that the antiquity of the Shmona Esre (Amidah) or eighteen benedictions (a 19th, to keep Christians from participating, was added by Rabban Gamaliel II, grandson of the Gamaliel mentioned in the NT) establishes the belief in a bodily resurrection in Judaism before the advent of Christianity. Not so curiously, Reform Judaism has changed that second benediction of that ancient prayer, but there can be no question of the antiquity of the belief in a bodily resurrection.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I trust that you are aware of what I did not say specifically - that the antiquity of the Shmona Esre (Amidah) or eighteen benedictions (a 19th, to keep Christians from participating, was added by Rabban Gamaliel II, grandson of the Gamaliel mentioned in the NT) establishes the belief in a bodily resurrection in Judaism before the advent of Christianity. Not so curiously, Reform Judaism has changed that second benediction of that ancient prayer, but there can be no question of the antiquity of the belief in a bodily resurrection.

Perhaps with the superstitious among the masses. Or those like Christians, who need the hope of resurrection in order to lip-service love for God.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Please don’t balme Maimonides. That is what you mean, but you can’t substantiate it with anything more than your say so. The text says “the land of Israel” and nowhere does it state that Israel is the land of the living, only that the dead will be restored to life, life in Israel. You see what you want to see. Now, of course the Amidah couldn’t possibly (uh, how old is it?) be written by rabbis who had your great vision or understood Ezekiel so well as you, now could it?

I have substantiated what I said above in the Scriptures; but it seems to me that the Scriptures has no credibility with you. You should therefore, carry only the NT.

 

[Danno2281]

I have substantiated what I said above in the Scriptures; but it seems to me that the Scriptures has no credibility with you. You should therefore, carry only the NT.

You have only substantiated that you, unlike those Jews who formulated the Shmoma Esre, have adopted The Sadducean viewpoint, by making the scriptures mean what you say that they mean. It must be very lonely for you.

 

[Danno2281]

Perhaps with the superstitious among the masses. Or those like Christians, who need the hope of resurrection in order to lip-service love for God.

“The superstitious among the masses”? You mean, of course, those who use the non-Reform version of the Shmona Esre,those like Gamaliel II. Somehow that superstitious rabbi has come to be known as “Rabban.” How, I wonder could so many sages be so mistake? How could they disagree with b. Masada? So very sad.