The Metamorphosis of the Catholic Mass

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Back to the main point.

Is it possible that Novo Ordo, celebrated properly (either in native language or mainly in Latin), would lead to a higher degree of authentic worship and spirituality or not ?
 
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malcolm_davies:
Back to the main point.

Is it possible that Novo Ordo, celebrated properly (either in native language or mainly in Latin), would lead to a higher degree of authentic worship and spirituality or not ?
I do believe that obedience to the norms is a better choice than personal preference, and that subjecting our will is a higher Spiritual goal.

However there are certain options and/or absence of a specific instruction which some people interpret as abuse. I am still not convinced that many so-called abuses are real abuses.

But above all, it would never be better for anyone’s Spirituality to ridicule people, even if there were real abuses.
 
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malcolm_davies:
Back to the main point.

Is it possible that Novo Ordo, celebrated properly (either in native language or mainly in Latin), would lead to a higher degree of authentic worship and spirituality or not ?
I think that worship, while it may have an emotional content, is work; we need to bring ourselves and make that offereing to God, in union with the offereing (sacrifice) of His Son.

I get the distinct impression, given some of the emotional language that is used in conjunction with the TLM, the the emotions are a strong factor in their choice.

Listening ot the prayers the priest is reciting in your native language, joining in with him, making those prayers your own, is work. It is no longer something that is being done for you, or to you; it is something you need to join in.

My own personal experience was that the TLM seemed somewhat rote.

I am not trying to denigrate the emotional aspect that some find in the TLM; I like the “smells and bells” too. But frankly, when I hear a choir singing a Mass form Palestrina, I have the distinct impression of being at a concert; when I sing along with the congregation, I am actively participating in worshiping God.

and I happen to like some of the songs That Oregon Catholic Press puts out, specifically because they are based on the Psalms, which ties into the Liturgy of the Hours, which I try to pray.

I also have a greater sense of community, something that is talked about repeatedly in documents from the Vatican, in the Pauline rite. Some seem to refer to this as horizontal liturgy, but if it works for the Vatican, it works for me. St paul says a lot about the Body of Christ, and personally, I have never sat next to a stranger in church; often next to someone I have not met, but never a stranger.

So to answer your question, I would say yes, it already has led to a higher degree of authentic worship and spirituality.
 
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otm:
You are right, I do reject it; because of posters such as yourself making it eminently clear that the Pauline rite is subject to more alternatives, specifically allowed or not, there is no way that I would apply the analogy to it.

And, as posters such as yourself have repeatedly made known, one of the things that they like and respect about the Tridentine Mass is its consistency and repeatablity.

So I guess the only thing that puzzels me is why you would find that funny, as you are the one who makes the analogy so clear.

I mean, everyone who has eaten there and in any of its competitors knows that McDonalds fries are the standeard in the industry; they got to be the standard not only because of how they are done, but also because they are so exact, so consistent, with no variations. And a Big Mac is a Big Mac no matter where you eat.

In other words, you opened the door. Why are you surprised I walked through it?

Or did I miss something?
I attend a NO church. I was surprised because you claimed it was dehumanizing to use the Mc Donald’s analogy for one mass, but not the other.

I will leave to the Pope who has claimed it is time for a reform of the reform.
 
Bobby Jim:
Dare I suggest that McDonalds is a bad analogy. To put it bluntly, you get a standardized low-quality product that lacks any individual character. Same with a lot of other chain restaurants. You get a manufactured, pre-packaged experience in which the people serving you are basically interchangable parts in a big distribution network, reheating and serving pre-made meals.

I’m not arguing for trendy innovation at Mass or anything like that. But the McDonalds/Mass analogy is essentially dehumanizing.
I feel that using McDonalds as an analogy is just using something that everyone knows.
Perhaps Cadillac could be better but the analogy would be the same. A Holy Mass is a standard. Innovations are not allowed. If one buys a Cadillac, one can expect the top quality. The same top quality whether you buy one in L.A. or Brunswick, OH. I think that is what the poster is trying to say.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I feel that using McDonalds as an analogy is just using something that everyone knows.
Perhaps Cadillac could be better but the analogy would be the same. A Holy Mass is a standard. Innovations are not allowed. If one buys a Cadillac, one can expect the top quality. The same top quality whether you buy one in L.A. or Brunswick, OH. I think that is what the poster is trying to say.
Thanks, but I think some posters will not accept any analogy that goes against the happy, clappy, novelty that has become mistaken for the celebration of the holy sacrifice of the mass.
 
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Thanks, but I think some posters will not accept any analogy that goes against the happy, clappy, novelty that has become mistaken for the celebration of the holy sacrifice of the mass.
You may be right.😦
 
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Thanks, but I think some posters will not accept any analogy that goes against the happy, clappy, novelty that has become mistaken for the celebration of the holy sacrifice of the mass.
Perhaps we could just follow the instructions, and be tolerant of options when they are allowed.

You call it “happy, clappy”, but it is enthusiastic praise, which is the most neglected form of prayer, and the most beneficial to us.
 
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Mysty101:
Perhaps we could just follow the instructions, and be tolerant of options when they are allowed.

You call it “happy, clappy”, but it is enthusiastic praise, which is the most neglected form of prayer, and the most beneficial to us.
I tolerate options when they are authentic. I do not appreciate the many, or the few, who impose their private initiatives on the faithful.
 
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I tolerate options when they are authentic. I do not appreciate the many, or the few, who impose their private initiatives on the faithful.
Take Heart!
The move is toward a more institutional liturgy but the change will be slow. The innovative Holy Mass will become a thing of the past in years to come. Bishops around the country are being replaced with more orthodox Bishops and that trend WILL continue.
Trust me when I tell you that the times of the liturgical committee running our liturgies is a thing of the past. Our new Pope is looking for a leaner but more devout church.
I pray that I will see it in my lifetime. A time when the American Bishops do not deviate from the norms being set by the Vatican. It will be done by putting Bishops in that don’t ask for us to be different from the rest of the world. That will happen in my children’s lifetime if not mine.
God Bless Benedict XVI. May he serve Our Lord for many years!!!
 
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otm:
You are right, I do reject it; because of posters such as yourself making it eminently clear that the Pauline rite is subject to more alternatives, specifically allowed or not, there is no way that I would apply the analogy to it.

And, as posters such as yourself have repeatedly made known, one of the things that they like and respect about the Tridentine Mass is its consistency and repeatablity.

So I guess the only thing that puzzels me is why you would find that funny, as you are the one who makes the analogy so clear.

I mean, everyone who has eaten there and in any of its competitors knows that McDonalds fries are the standeard in the industry; they got to be the standard not only because of how they are done, but also because they are so exact, so consistent, with no variations. And a Big Mac is a Big Mac no matter where you eat.

In other words, you opened the door. Why are you surprised I walked through it?

Or did I miss something?
But let’s take this McD’s analogy farther. The truth is that McD DOES have an increasingly wide menu to respond to growing demand for food besides burgers and fries. Moreover, McD tests new menu items in specific locations, to see what works. The menu options also vary (somewhat) from country to country, in accordance with local tastes, laws, and customs. (For example, in Quebec McD serves poutine–I bet you don’t find that many other places). So, if we examine the McD analogy deeper we find that its success and worlwide reach is due in part to its flexibility and innovation, not only its standardization.

And as silly as it may sound, we can relate the McD analogy more specifically to the practice of hand-holding at the our Father. McD DOES care a great deal how its employees behave–this might be analogous to the church and the clergy. No doubt about it, both organizations would frown on innovations in their behavior that violate company (church) philosophy (theology) and codes (rubrics). BUT, McD does not care what the customers (laity) do–they can drink with a straw or directly from the cup, use their fingers, a fork, or chopsticks, eat standing or sitting, dine-in or carry-out, etc. So too, the GIRM appears pretty open as to what the laity does during mass, with a few very specific prescribed postures (no shirt, no shoes, no service).

Now, being a little more serious, I think a number of posters have confused the variation allowed in the Pauline mass (which I assume refers to flexibility the rubrics allow for choice of eucharistic prayes, form of penitential rite, etc), with the variation in posture by the laity during the mass. I don’t know whether the Tridentine mass was celebrated more unifromly by the clergy in the old days (I wasn’t there). But I have been led to believe that the laity did not always adopt uniform postures–some stood, sat, knelt, prayed the rosary, listened intently, looked at the stain glass, etc). The few Tridentine masses I have been to lately confrm this, though admittedly the lack of uniformity may because many in attendance (like myself) were not sure what they were supposed to do. It is not clear to me that hand-holding by the laity during the our father would have been forbidden by any existing church documents–we will simply have to guess as to how the church would have responded if the practice had become widespread before the introduction of the Novus Ordo mass.

And it is not enough to say that hand-holding would never have intruded into the Tridentine Mass and that this practice is somehow caused by the N.O. mass. That the practice occured after the introduction of the N.O. and therefore must be caused by it is a fallacious Post Hoc Ergo Hoc argument.

I am strongly opposed to innovations in the liturgy that DO contradict stated rubrics, and especially when these are imposed by the priest (with or without the help of his liturgy committee). I don’t like when the words of prayers are changed to be more inclusive, or when unapproved individuals are allowed to give the homily. I would not agree if a priest ORDERED everyone to hold hands during the our father.

However, I am not going to get worked up about individuals or groups who hold hands during the our father, until the church specifically forbids or endorses the posture. The church wisely says little about the SPECIFIC posture of the laity because such matters are best left to the local community to deal with. Someone else posted that, by this logic, someone God forbid could shout Hallelujah and do a somersault before receiving the eucharist. Well, I am not sure about the somersault (this would likely interfere with others in line for communion), but why not shout Hallelujah? Once again, it’s not my cup of tea, but I am not going to get down on someone because of their exuberance in praising the Lord.
 
Vox Borealis:
I am strongly opposed to innovations in the liturgy that DO contradict stated rubrics, and especially when these are imposed by the priest (with or without the help of his liturgy committee). I don’t like when the words of prayers are changed to be more inclusive, or when unapproved individuals are allowed to give the homily. I would not agree if a priest ORDERED everyone to hold hands during the our father.

However, I am not going to get worked up about individuals or groups who hold hands during the our father, until the church specifically forbids or endorses the posture. The church wisely says little about the SPECIFIC posture of the laity because such matters are best left to the local community to deal with. Someone else posted that, by this logic, someone God forbid could shout Hallelujah and do a somersault before receiving the eucharist. Well, I am not sure about the somersault (this would likely interfere with others in line for communion), but why not shout Hallelujah? Once again, it’s not my cup of tea, but I am not going to get down on someone because of their exuberance in praising the Lord.
In my parish we are told to join hands just before the Our Father. It is pretty much expected. The church tells us no one has the right to add or subtract from the mass. The current Pope himself has said to many novelties have crept into the mass. Cardinal Arinze has spoken about these small and large abuses. These issues are not some agit prop made up by conservative zealots. These small and large abuses are the direct result of too many thinking the mass is their private property as well as liberal liturgists with a specific agenda to change the Church.

The Mc Donald’s analogy was used to point to authentic unity as opposed to congregationalism.
 
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In my parish we are told to join hands just before the Our Father. It is pretty much expected. The church tells us no one has the right to add or subtract from the mass. The current Pope himself has said to many novelties have crept into the mass. Cardinal Arinze has spoken about these small and large abuses. These issues are not some agit prop made up by conservative zealots. These small and large abuses are the direct result of too many thinking the mass is their private property as well as liberal liturgists with a specific agenda to change the Church.
And RS is pretty specific about how to handle these abuses, especially minor ones. Speak to the Pastor and remember charity when you do. It is not up to someone in the congregation to correct others, or instigate against the Pastor or someone in charge.
 
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Mysty101:
And RS is pretty specific about how to handle these abuses, especially minor ones. Speak to the Pastor and remember charity when you do. It is not up to someone in the congregation to correct others, or instigate against the Pastor or someone in charge.
I never said otherwise. I was responding to those who want wiggle room to allow the new mass to be anything anyone intends it to be.
 
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I never said otherwise. I was responding to those who want wiggle room to allow the new mass to be anything anyone intends it to be.
And I absolutely agree with you, especially on more serious matters, but I certainly wouldn’t say anything about the request to join hands, even if I thought it was wrong. I have said something about self-intinction, because this is a serious abuse.

Have you said anything about the request to join hands, or anything else?
 
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Mysty101:
And I absolutely agree with you, especially on more serious matters, but I certainly wouldn’t say anything about the request to join hands, even if I thought it was wrong. I have said something about self-intinction, because this is a serious abuse.

Have you said anything about the request to join hands, or anything else?
Actually I have registered my uneasiness with the pastor on this and other issues.

One of the issues is incrediblly loud talking and glad handing before the mass starts. It is terribly disrespectful to others who wish quiet to pray. The priest actually tried to say we should be more quiet. His words were ignored and he dropped it.
 
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Actually I have registered my uneasiness with the pastor on this and other issues.

One of the issues is incrediblly loud talking and glad handing before the mass starts. It is terribly disrespectful to others who wish quiet to pray. The priest actually tried to say we should be more quiet. His words were ignored and he dropped it.
Yes, We have had similar situations, with the same results. If the Pastor corrects the people and they do not listen, what can he do.:confused:

You can give the kids a written punishment, but what can you do with disrespectful adults???😦
 
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I attend a NO church. I was surprised because you claimed it was dehumanizing to use the Mc Donald’s analogy for one mass, but not the other.

I will leave to the Pope who has claimed it is time for a reform of the reform.
No, I did not claim that it was dehumanizing to use the analogy for one but not the other; I simply claimed that it was dehumanizing to use it.

I did say that given the substance of the analogy, it would appear to be more applicable to one Mass than the other, but that does not say that it would not be dehumanizing to use it to one that it did not fit very well.

I am well aware of the Pope’s previously expressed views. It seems to me he has also said that we have had enough chaos with the changes over the last 35 to 40 years. Whether or not he will make a point of tackling the issue, only time will tell, as I haven’t heard that he has put liturgical change on his list of issues he considers important during his papacy.

Given the Islamization of Europe, the world wide rapid growth of Islam, the almost complete collapse of Christianity (not just Catholicism) in Europe, the continured growth of AIDs and HIV world wide, the massive numbers of infants aborted world wide, the growing distance economically between 1st world and 3rd world economies, the rapid growth in terrorism, particularly as it relates to radical Islam, the continued use of birth control and the aggressive push by the U.N., related NGOs, and rather most of 1st world countries to push birth control and abortion onto 3rd world countries, cloning, end of life issues a la euthinasia, the rise of China as a world economic power, and nuclear weapons issues just to name a few, I would be surprised if he does much with liturgical reform. and if you look at the liturgical reforms that have occured through the GIRM and related documents, and his professed statements about Vatican 2, then the bishops of the world are going to be involved in liturgical reform also; this alone would indicate that changes will most likely not be rapid or sharply different.

As I said, time will tell.
 
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