The Metamorphosis of the Catholic Mass

[msproule]

otm:

…I would submit that we have at least one generation who dosn’t really understand the meaning or symbolism of beating one’s breast. I would agree that most don’t know that such an act is appropriate at the given times, much less required (which it appears to not be). I also suspect that it is possible to get into a form of rigidity about the whole matter - i.e. is it done with a closed fist or an open hand? Is it done once, or more than once (since the prayer has changed, which I am not convinced is a mis-translation - the prayer is rendered differently intentionally).

Here is an interesting link about striking the breast. Surprisingly, it even discusses the configuration of the hand and fingers!

I had heard that there is a forthcoming revised translation (although, I am sure these types of rumors are far too common) with corrections such as:

• Confiteor with three “my faults” instead of one
• the response “and also with you” correctly becoming “and with your spirit”.

It is true that culture and force of custom can have a great effect and influence on future instructions and laws. But I lament the loss of culture and custom through attrition. If there is no perceived value in some of these gestures, then why not just come out and say that we should no longer perform them with solid theology behind that decision?

 

[netmilsmom]

Steve Green:

What a MESS !!!

Let’s have a V III !!!

hands hold, or not, up in the air, or pocket, !!! Pass the kool aid the mother ship is passing over.

 

[TobyLue]

Here is a link regarding the Orans Position http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm

There have been a number of threads about people and whole parishes exhibiting new gestures and practises that are not specified in the GIRM, who is infecting the Catholic Faith. If you take as truth what people are now saying what these changes are, it sounds like evangelical protestants and charasmatics have invaded the Catholic church, or we have a bunch of the faithfull two timing.

and

BTW–There are certain gestures which are fairly common that I personally do not like and would not use, but I see no official documentation which forbids them.

Looking at the GIRM, these are instructions of what the priest and faithful ARE do to. I see no documentation forbidding me to shout “hallelujah” and do a sommersault before receiving our Lord. I see no documentation that forbids me from going around and kissing all the ladies during the sign of peace. I see no documentation that forbids me from blowing a harmonica instead of saying “amen”. The list could be endless. Very simply put, If its not in the GIRM… DONT DO IT… Canon law states that nobody, not even a priest nor a bishop can add anything to the liturgy. So when we reach out to hold hands and cross the aisle, we add to the liturgy, when we hold out hands out to imitate the priest in the orans position, we add to the liturgy.

A priest friend of mind one stated that he has told his brother priests that they can avoid all this confusion if they just “stick to the rubrics”.
I think the problem stems from the fact that priests not wanting to upset their flock and hoping that new inovations would bring people in have lost control and now even bishops are having a difficult time bringing things back to the way they should have been.
We can do our part by educating others and sticking to whats called for in the GIRM, even if the priest doesnt.

 

[TJD]

TobyLue,

Thanks for the link. Interesting read. I did notice recently that our Deacon stopped using the orans during the Our Father. I did not know why. He must have received some direction.

I will continue with the orans during the Lords Prayer because my Priest recommended it instead of holding hands. However, I will ask him and the Deacon what is up.

As of now I am confused what my posture should be. I do understand the first word of the prayer and I want to pray it in communion with the congregation.

Christ’s Peace,

 

[netmilsmom]

TobyLue:

Looking at the GIRM, these are instructions of what the priest and faithful ARE do to…

…We can do our part by educating others and sticking to whats called for in the GIRM, even if the priest doesnt.

You are about to get the same phrase thrown at me…
“Then you can’t fold your hands because it is not in the GIRM either”

Let me short stop this now before posters who are hostile to your position come in.
"There are also symbolic problems associated with their doing so. (the orans) No matter how the posture may or may not have been used in antiquity, today it is a priestly posture in the liturgy.

This is repeatedly made clear in the Church’s liturgical documents. For example, the Ceremonial of Bishops notes: “Customarily in the Church a bishop or presbyter addresses prayers to God while standing with hands slightly raised and outstretched” (CB 104).

Similarly, in the Book of Blessings, whenever there is a blessing which can be performed either by a member of the clergy or the laity, the rubrics invariably directs that “A minister who is a priest or deacon says the prayer of blessing with hands outstretched; a lay minister says the prayer with hands joined” (BB 1999). Over and over again, the rubrics direct clergy to pray with hands outstretched and laity with hands joined.

Because of the special association praying with hands outstretched has with priestly office, some dissident elements in the Church have desired to get the laity into the habit of praying in this posture during Mass. This furthers the dissident agenda of continuing to blur the line between the laity and the clergy.

Fortunately, the recent Instruction on Collaboration (Nov. 13, 1997) drew the line on this issue and specifically mandated that “Neither may . . . non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the . . . priest celebrant” (ICP, Practical Provisions 6 §2).

The reference to gestures that are appropriate to the priest celebrating the Mass certainly includes praying with arms outstretched, which is probably the single most frequent gesture the rubrics direct him to make during Mass and which is clearly tied to the office of priest in the Church’s liturgical documents.

Consequently, in the liturgy, laity should not be praying with hands outstretched."

There are more instructions from the church than just the GIRM. When Bishops of individual Diocese (or individual Catholics for that matter) look at only one document, they run into problems.

cont. on next post…

 

[netmilsmom]

And here is a list of the documents sent to me.

Acronym
Document Name (Latin)
Common Name
Date Issued

CIC/83
Codex Iuris Canonici
Code of Canon Law
1983

ICP
Instruction on Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration of the Non-Ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priest
1997

ID
Inaestimabile Donum
1980

GIRM
General Instruction to the Roman Missal (new GIRM 2003)
1970

AGI
Appendix to the General Instruction for Dioceses in the United States
1970

PS
Paschales Solemnitatis
On the Preparation and Celebration of the Easter Feasts
1988

DC
Dominae Cenae
On the Mystery and Worship of the Eucharist
1980

MS
Misericordiam Suam
Introduction to the New Order of Penance
1974

HLS
“This Holy and Living Sacrifice: Directory for the Celebration and Reception of Communion under Both Kinds”
Issued by US Bishops and approved by Holy See
1984

I do understand that the new GIRM replaces the old but as you can see, none of the above directives are from the GIRM

(I hope this will keep you from getting slammed as I have been)

 

[netmilsmom]

TJD:

TobyLue,

Thanks for the link. Interesting read. I did notice recently that our Deacon stopped using the orans during the Our Father. I did not know why. He must have received some direction.

I will continue with the orans during the Lords Prayer because my Priest recommended it instead of holding hands. However, I will ask him and the Deacon what is up.

As of now I am confused what my posture should be. I do understand the first word of the prayer and I want to pray it in communion with the congregation.

Christ’s Peace,

If you are standing next to a person, and you are praying in unison with that person, you are praying together. Even if you fold your hands and look down.

 

[otm]

msproule:

Here is an interesting link about striking the breast. Surprisingly, it even discusses the configuration of the hand and fingers!

I had heard that there is a forthcoming revised translation (although, I am sure these types of rumors are far too common) with corrections such as:

• Confiteor with three “my faults” instead of one
• the response “and also with you” correctly becoming “and with your spirit”.

It is true that culture and force of custom can have a great effect and influence on future instructions and laws. But I lament the loss of culture and custom through attrition. If there is no perceived value in some of these gestures, then why not just come out and say that we should no longer perform them with solid theology behind that decision?

I read the link, but did not see a date on the article. I would be curious as to when it was written, as it sounds as if it was a much older rubrics being discussed.

 

[otm]

TobyLue:

Looking at the GIRM, these are instructions of what the priest and faithful ARE do to. I see no documentation forbidding me to shout “hallelujah” and do a sommersault before receiving our Lord. I see no documentation that forbids me from going around and kissing all the ladies during the sign of peace. I see no documentation that forbids me from blowing a harmonica instead of saying “amen”. The list could be endless. Very simply put, If its not in the GIRM… DONT DO IT…

which gets us all back to the issue that is brought up, and roundly ignored: the GIRM also does not say to hold your hands together, fingers up or fingers interlaced, so by the logic of your statement, no one should use that position (which I see people doing as they approach and leave Communion, as well as at other times).

If, by your logic, we are not to hold hands during the Our Father, or raise them in the Orans postion, why do you hold that other positions of the hands are permitted - nay, even to be recommended and praised?

I submit the Archbishop Chaput is no fool, nor a liberal; and I would trust him for directions in the matter.

 

[otm]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

And here is a list of the documents sent to me.

Acronym
Document Name (Latin)
Common Name
Date Issued

CIC/83
Codex Iuris Canonici
Code of Canon Law
1983

ICP
Instruction on Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration of the Non-Ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priest
1997

ID
Inaestimabile Donum
1980

GIRM
General Instruction to the Roman Missal (new GIRM 2003)
1970

AGI
Appendix to the General Instruction for Dioceses in the United States
1970

PS
Paschales Solemnitatis
On the Preparation and Celebration of the Easter Feasts
1988

DC
Dominae Cenae
On the Mystery and Worship of the Eucharist
1980

MS
Misericordiam Suam
Introduction to the New Order of Penance
1974

HLS
“This Holy and Living Sacrifice: Directory for the Celebration and Reception of Communion under Both Kinds”
Issued by US Bishops and approved by Holy See
1984

I do understand that the new GIRM replaces the old but as you can see, none of the above directives are from the GIRM

(I hope this will keep you from getting slammed as I have been)

Need I remind you that the priest also prays with his palms together, fingers pointing upwards. Ergo, by your arguement, that is not to be done as it would be mimicing the posture of the priest, thereby blurring the lines between laity and clergy… :dancing:

 

[Mysty101]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

And here is a list of the documents sent to me.

Acronym
Document Name (Latin)
Common Name
Date Issued

CIC/83
Codex Iuris Canonici
Code of Canon Law
1983

ICP
Instruction on Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration of the Non-Ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priest
1997

ID
Inaestimabile Donum
1980

GIRM
General Instruction to the Roman Missal (new GIRM 2003)
1970

AGI
Appendix to the General Instruction for Dioceses in the United States

1970

PS
Paschales Solemnitatis

On the Preparation and Celebration of the Easter Feasts

1988

DC
Dominae Cenae

On the Mystery and Worship of the Eucharist

1980

MS
Misericordiam Suam
Introduction to the New Order of Penance

1974

HLS

“This Holy and Living Sacrifice: Directory for the Celebration and Reception of Communion under Both Kinds”

Issued by US Bishops and approved by Holy See
1984

I do understand that the new GIRM replaces the old but as you can see, none of the above directives are from the GIRM

(I hope this will keep you from getting slammed as I have been)

You do not get slammed, --you consider legitimate correcting of your errors–slamming.

GIRM

General Instruction to the Roman Missal (new GIRM 2003)
1970

Your bibliography does include the 1970 GIRM (with a notation that the GIRM was revised in 2003), which leads me to believe you did not do your research carefully.

The GIRM is the final word on the liturgy. And the conference of Bishops is head of the US.

As I said the only official word I have found (And I have asked for others), is this from the USCCB site
Many Catholics are in the habit of holding their hands in the “Orans” posture during the Lord’s prayer along with the celebrant. Some do this on their own as a private devotional posture while some congregations make it a general practice for their communities.

Is this practice permissible under the current rubrics, either as a private practice not something adopted by a particular parish as a communal gesture?

No position is prescribed in the present Sacramentary for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer.

Email us at bcl@usccb.org
Committee on the Liturgy | 3211 4th Street, N.E., Washington DC 20017-1194 | (202) 541-3000 © USCCB. All rights reserved.

. Now if the answer was “no”, why wouldn’t it be stated?

(Sorry for the formatting—the cutting & pasting messes it up)

 

[netmilsmom]

otm:

Need I remind you that the priest also prays with his palms together, fingers pointing upwards. Ergo, by your arguement, that is not to be done as it would be mimicing the posture of the priest, thereby blurring the lines between laity and clergy… :dancing:

I guess you know better than the Vatican.
Thank you Mysty for your insight.

 

[netmilsmom]

Mysty101:

You do not get slammed, --you consider legitimate correcting of your errors–slamming.

Your bibliography does include the 1970 GIRM (with a notation that the GIRM was revised in 2003), which leads me to believe you did not do your research carefully.

The GIRM is the final word on the liturgy. And the conference of Bishops is head of the US.

As I said the only official word I have found (And I have asked for others), is this from the USCCB site

. Now if the answer was “no”, why wouldn’t it be stated?

(Sorry for the formatting—the cutting & pasting messes it up)

People have read how you have spoken to me personally on these theads. Personally. You may not like the idea that I feel slammed but I do. Better you jump on me than some new poster though.

I’m so sorry that the office sent me a list with a typo. I put a correction and have e-mailed back. I’m sure that now since he is no longer working on the 10 years of articles on the CCC (you might be interested in that) and is now working on Life issues with the Vatican, he is not quite so interested in proof reading.

I told you before that I would personally ask him this weekend, and this will be my last day here before the trip, but just keep quoting what you do and ignore what you asked for, documentation. But this I so know, The GIRM excluding something does not override another document including it.

 

[Mysty101]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I guess you know better than the Vatican.
Thank you Mysty for your insight.

Please respond to the correct poster.

 

[netmilsmom]

otm:

Need I remind you that the priest also prays with his palms together, fingers pointing upwards. Ergo, by your arguement, that is not to be done as it would be mimicing the posture of the priest, thereby blurring the lines between laity and clergy… :dancing:

I’m sorry, because you didn’t edit my post I thought you were another poster.

Where is the directive that the priest is to pray this way at a certain point in the Holy Mass?
The Orans IS directed and therefore a Priestly getsture.
You will find much more that we are not given directions on than what we are.
When you think of BBQ, that is not stated in the documents and not allowed to be done.

 

[Mysty101]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I guess you know better than the Vatican.
Thank you Mysty for your insight.

Your welcome for the posts I have taken time to write to you in an effort to help you see that the first priority is love—that ridiculing your brother is not the way to go, and that there are no strict rules for posture and gestures during the liturgy, very little instruction for the congregation in the matter of postures & gestures, and that it is not up to you to correct anyone regarding the liturgy–especially in public, that the instruction is to report abuse.

However I did not write the post which you answered to me.

 

[netmilsmom]

Mysty101:

Now if the answer was “no”, why wouldn’t it be stated?

If it’s yes, why don’t they state it???
They don’t state laying prostrate in Holy Mass is wrong either. It’s a proper prayer posture.

 

[netmilsmom]

Mysty101:

Your welcome for the posts I have taken time to write to you in an effort to help you see that the first priority is love—that ridiculing your brother is not the way to go, and that there are no strict rules for posture and gestures during the liturgy, very little instruction for the congregation in the matter of postures & gestures, and that it is not up to you to correct anyone regarding the liturgy–especially in public, that the instruction is to report abuse.

However I did not write the post which you answered to me.

Are you going to answer the one’s I did?
(I apologized to the poster)
And I have given you the other documents, sent by a Bishop’s office to verify what I have said.
It doesn’t matter to me if you keep repeating the same. I will get the word out to Pete in the Pew who does not like the innovations.

 

[Mysty101]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

People have read how you have spoken to me personally on these theads. Personally. You may not like the idea that I feel slammed but I do. Better you jump on me than some new poster though.

I have asked you a few times to stick to the topic, and leave out the personal dressing-- I do not slam you, I challenge your statements, and you rarely respond to the challenge, but move on to something else, or give a sarcastic response, which answers nothing —you say it iis OK to be sarcastic, but that is only if you are dishing it out.

(The last time I responded to you line by line you said you wouldn’t even read it (why did you need to post that? just don’t read it) Perhaps you might benefit if you do read it.

God bless you.

 

[netmilsmom]

Mysty101:

I have asked you a few times to stick to the topic, and leave out the personal dressing-- I do not slam you, I challenge your statements, and you rarely respond to the challenge, but move on to something else, or give a sarcastic response, which answers nothing —you say it iis OK to be sarcastic, but that is only if you are dishing it out.

(The last time I responded to you line by line you said you wouldn’t even read it (why did you need to post that? just don’t read it) Perhaps you might benefit if you do read it.

God bless you.

Was it when I had nothing to say to you after you insulted me and another poster named Kathy?
Or was it when you got off suspension, and addressed issues from a closed thread on another?
I posted that I would not read it because I wanted you to know that I didn’t think it was worth my time to go back weeks to cover your suspension.

I’m sorry that you would not like to address what I have written but rather chastise.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. You and I both need to learn it.
But understand that you do have a beam in your eye as you state how uncharitable I am (and other posters without addressing them).
Look at yourself and correct what you do first.
Robertaf (a fellow Charismatic) and I had a dispute and in the end came to a conclusion that we agreed on having masses for everyone. She is great. Perhaps you can talk to her.

I have to go to Holy Mass and get down to Cleveland. I will be sure to ask my Uncle about your questions.
God Bless you.

(and my big girl, Congrats my Net on your First Communion)