The Missing Link has Been Found how will this change morality?

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God seems to interact with his world in many ways. Why not (also) in the evolutionary process? Perhaps he enjoys it, like a music composer conducting the orchestra playing his music.
This is what I meant by an interventionist God, and was told that it wasn’t part of ID. Which is it?

It is a possibility that God directs nature. I think it unlikely, for a variety of theological reasons, but that doesn’t matter to biology. Biology must work with what can be observed. If we see certain patterns and forces and even random or semi-random occurrences, and theories about the relationships of these can explain the natural phenomena, then what reason is there to believe that they are not so?

The only way an interventionist Will could be posited by science is if that Will could be observed. Bringing it in without observation is beyond the scope of science and is the realm of theology, which is why ID is not science.
And if God is acting in this universe (i.e. is not the God of the Diestic heresy) - why would he try to cover his tracks or his presence using “randomness?”
Why do you say it would be “cover[ing] his tracks?” What’s wrong with Him just setting it all in motion, the way human flips a switch on a machine or activates a self-propagating computer program?

You might as well ask why God doesn’t pop right down in front of you and say, “Hello, I am God, let me prove it to you.”
 
IThe only way an interventionist Will could be posited by science is if that Will could be observed. Bringing it in without observation is beyond the scope of science and is the realm of theology, which is why ID is not science…Why do you say it would be “cover[ing] his tracks?” What’s wrong with Him just setting it all in motion, the way human flips a switch on a machine or activates a self-propagating computer program?
(1) But an interventionist (scientifically unobservable) Will could be and in fact is posited by theistic evolution, Catholic and otherwise.

(2) “Setting it all in motion” carries connotations of Newtonian Deism, with an absent God, although I recognize that there are degrees of absenteeism. If God “tweaked” the Chicxulub bollide at the KT boundary, would the tweaking be detectable?

(3) I like the “both / and” approach: Just as the eucharistic elements are both chemically bread and wine and spiritually the body and blood of Christ present for the Church, so the universe is both scientifically observable and testable, and spiritually alive. It would not bother me if neuroscience were to discover that temporal lobe seizures are correlates of mystical experiences, so long as explaining doesn’t explain away.

StAnastasia
 
(1) But an interventionist (scientifically unobservable) Will could be and in fact is posited by theistic evolution, Catholic and otherwise.

(2) “Setting it all in motion” carries connotations of Newtonian Deism, with an absent God, although I recognize that there are degrees of absenteeism. If God “tweaked” the Chicxulub bollide at the KT boundary, would the tweaking be detectable?

(3) I like the “both / and” approach: Just as the eucharistic elements are both chemically bread and wine and spiritually the body and blood of Christ present for the Church, so the universe is both scientifically observable and testable, and spiritually alive. It would not bother me if neuroscience were to discover that temporal lobe seizures are correlates of mystical experiences, so long as explaining doesn’t explain away.

StAnastasia
Let me clarify “interventionist” a bit more. I don’t agree with a nature that is a broken system, not able to work according to its own laws but requiring constant maintenance like an imperfect human machine.

A nature that is intrinsically tied to the spiritual in a unitive system is fine by me. I’m fond of the Catholic view that God has set angels “in charge” of all the various natural forces. Science can’t really tell us about that, though.
 
Constant intervention? Do you think that’s what ID is?
Arandur;5256214:
This is what I meant by an interventionist God, and was told that it wasn’t part of ID. Which is it?
You used the word “constant” intervention. That led me to believe that what you were talking about was the view that God directly causes every single motion and action that takes place in nature.

ID says only that God intervenes sometimes. Not always, as the other view above would say. Not never, as atheistic evolutionists would say.

And ID says that it is possible that when God intervened, there might be some evidence of this, and it is worth looking for.
 
It is a possibility that God directs nature. I think it unlikely, for a variety of theological reasons, but that doesn’t matter to biology. Biology must work with what can be observed. If we see certain patterns and forces and even random or semi-random occurrences, and theories about the relationships of these can explain the natural phenomena, then what reason is there to believe that they are not so?
Thank you for keeping an open mind at least. (No sarcasm intended here).

How do you explain relationships between random occurrences? Isn’t that an oxymoron?

The fact that relationships even occur means (to me anyway) that the entire system was intelligently designed.
The only way an interventionist Will could be posited by science is if that Will could be observed. Bringing it in without observation is beyond the scope of science and is the realm of theology, which is why ID is not science.
I won’t argue the point that ID is not a theory, at least not yet. But so long as scientific methods are used in the search and observation, why is it not science? Because it’s called ID? Because ID is 6 day creationism? (no, it’s not).
Why do you say it would be “cover[ing] his tracks?” What’s wrong with Him just setting it all in motion, the way human flips a switch on a machine or activates a self-propagating computer program?
Certainly we agree that an omnipotent God could do such a thing. But that’s not the teaching of the Church.

That’s the God who is the clockmaker / winder-upper of the Deistic heresy. It’s referred to briefly here in the Catechism. [paragraph 285]

Also, machines and self-propagating computer programs are intelligently designed, are they not?
You might as well ask why God doesn’t pop right down in front of you and say, “Hello, I am God, let me prove it to you.”
Blessed are those who have not seen and believed. But since you asked, here, put your hands in my side etc. (paraphrased).
 
Let me clarify “interventionist” a bit more. I don’t agree with a nature that is a broken system, not able to work according to its own laws but requiring constant maintenance like an imperfect human machine.
If God did, in fact, constantly intervene in nature, why would you call that nature broken? Why would you call intervention “maintenance?” Those are highly pejorative terms loaded with baggage and assumptions.

One assumption you make is that your own view of broken / not-broken is actually some gold standard that even God has to adhere to. On top of that assumption is another - that that if God intervenes, that he actually needs to intervene because he didn’t get it right the first time. You have a view of how you would have done it, how it would not be “broken” if you had done it. How if you had done it, you would have made it not to require constant intervention. No maintenance required.

God so loves the world that he intervenes. On purpose. Even if he could have put things on auto-pilot. Because an interactive relationship is part of love. The no maintenance required relationship is not a loving one.

Should a spouse desire a “no intervention, no maintenance, auto-pilot” approach to marriage?

If prior to your marriage, you wanted to build a house to show your spouse on your wedding day, would you want to put any personal time and touches into it, or would you just hire a contractor and be as surprised as your spouse when you opened the door?

That being said, I don’t claim that God intervenes at the level of every single event in nature (although I admit that it is possible.)
 
** The Shroud of Turin there’s your one example.**
Though this may be for a different topic, at a different time, I fail to see how observing a stain on a shroud would change a person’s moral philosophy. There would have to be something more dramatic, something akin to a motion within the soul, that would be the true motivator to changing a moral philosophy, where the viewing of a shroud would only be incidental.

No matter the claimed physical evidence for a miracle associated with a stain on a shroud, it would not be sufficient to lead from the very probable to the sort of metaphysical certainty required by a cogent and universal moral philosophy.
 
If God did, in fact, constantly intervene in nature, why would you call that nature broken? Why would you call intervention “maintenance?” Those are highly pejorative terms loaded with baggage and assumptions.

One assumption you make is that your own view of broken / not-broken is actually some gold standard that even God has to adhere to. On top of that assumption is another - that that if God intervenes, that he actually needs to intervene because he didn’t get it right the first time. You have a view of how you would have done it, how it would not be “broken” if you had done it. How if you had done it, you would have made it not to require constant intervention. No maintenance required.
You’re right. I am operating on those assumptions, and they are pejorative. Those assumptions, however, are derived from observation of nature and the very principles upon which science is founded. If natural law cannot operate predictably, then there is little point in trying to study it, and indeed it should have proved unreliable and so much of our scientific advancements are really based on nothing real.

No, God has shown us His constancy and eternality in the way He authored nature. Creation tells us of Him in these properties, and thus we can rely on natural law. I use those pejorative terms because if nature cannot “run on its own,” then the God we know, the unchanging eternal God, is either not unchanging and eternal or He doesn’t intend us to learn much about Him through His Creation, nor to find anything reliable in His Creation. Either way, since nature has the appearance of operating by constant laws and measurable relationships, if it is not so, then God seems to have created a deceptive universe and given us a faculty (reason) that will be of little avail to us in understanding it, or in fulfilling our given office of dominion and stewardship over creation. Thus, evolution and the scientific method upon which it is based is wholly consistent with what we know of God as Catholics, and Intelligent Design calls many points of that knowledge into dangerous question.
God so loves the world that he intervenes. On purpose. Even if he could have put things on auto-pilot. Because an interactive relationship is part of love. The no maintenance required relationship is not a loving one.
How does He intervene? I agree that He intervenes in human life, and occasionally with a miraculous suspension of natural law. But even the definition of a “miracle,” as being something requiring altering intervention in natural processes or the coordination of “coincidences,” implies that nature operates by constants and divine intervention is the exception rather than the rule.

As to your posts prior to this, you know that I am Catholic, right? And thus believe that God created all of creation? So of course, I believe in an intelligent designer. That belief is not the Intelligent Design that you speak of, however. I believe that God used the method of evolution, based on what we can see. More than what you’d define as micro-evolution (which as I understand it ID-ers accept), since I believe it likely that speciation occurs through evolution. Less than what you’d define as macro-evolution (that God wasn’t necessary), because of course God started it all.

I am no Deist, either; you take my terminology “set in motion” too far. God created nature to function according to observable and predictable laws. He does not need to change those laws to create the various outcomes we’ve observed. He has never abandoned His creation, though, and is most active in relation to humans, since we were made to have a relationship with Him at a level far beyond that of animals and other living and unliving things. It is thus no “watchmaker” scenario to say that God authored natural laws and set them in motion, even perhaps using the Big Bang (“Let there be Light!”) as that initiation point. He still remains in touch and active in the lives of His children.
 
You’re right. I am operating on those assumptions, and they are pejorative. Those assumptions, however, are derived from observation of nature and the very principles upon which science is founded. If natural law cannot operate predictably, then there is little point in trying to study it, and indeed it should have proved unreliable and so much of our scientific advancements are really based on nothing real.

No, God has shown us His constancy and eternality in the way He authored nature. Creation tells us of Him in these properties, and thus we can rely on natural law. I use those pejorative terms because if nature cannot “run on its own,” then the God we know, the unchanging eternal God, is either not unchanging and eternal or He doesn’t intend us to learn much about Him through His Creation, nor to find anything reliable in His Creation. Either way, since nature has the appearance of operating by constant laws and measurable relationships, if it is not so, then God seems to have created a deceptive universe and given us a faculty (reason) that will be of little avail to us in understanding it, or in fulfilling our given office of dominion and stewardship over creation. Thus, evolution and the scientific method upon which it is based is wholly consistent with what we know of God as Catholics, and Intelligent Design calls many points of that knowledge into dangerous question.

How does He intervene? I agree that He intervenes in human life, and occasionally with a miraculous suspension of natural law. But even the definition of a “miracle,” as being something requiring altering intervention in natural processes or the coordination of “coincidences,” implies that nature operates by constants and divine intervention is the exception rather than the rule.

As to your posts prior to this, you know that I am Catholic, right? And thus believe that God created all of creation? So of course, I believe in an intelligent designer. That belief is not the Intelligent Design that you speak of, however. I believe that God used the method of evolution, based on what we can see. More than what you’d define as micro-evolution (which as I understand it ID-ers accept), since I believe it likely that speciation occurs through evolution. Less than what you’d define as macro-evolution (that God wasn’t necessary), because of course God started it all.

I am no Deist, either; you take my terminology “set in motion” too far. God created nature to function according to observable and predictable laws. He does not need to change those laws to create the various outcomes we’ve observed. He has never abandoned His creation, though, and is most active in relation to humans, since we were made to have a relationship with Him at a level far beyond that of animals and other living and unliving things. It is thus no “watchmaker” scenario to say that God authored natural laws and set them in motion, even perhaps using the Big Bang (“Let there be Light!”) as that initiation point. He still remains in touch and active in the lives of His children.
Thank you for your post above. I can see that you put a lot of thought into it, and clarified some previous posts.

I don’t have time right now to post anything longer, but I’ll try to come back to your post with some additional comments tomorrow.
 
They may be able to prove physical similarities, but the true difference between humanity and the animal kingdom lies in the soul and its ability to comprehend God, which is an uniquely human characteristic. I think I heard somewhere that humans and apes share about 98% of their DNA. It’s the other 2% plus soul that makes the difference. If they are somehow able to prove that this “link” had acquired a soul, then maybe something will come of it. 🙂
 
No. But he knows someone who was:cool:
I know someone who left messages in His Creation about how things work and how He did things and who He is. Those messages seem to be telling us pretty strongly that God is far larger and older and greater than a brief tale told to convey to us that He is Maker (not how He made or the intricacies of what He made).

Proponents of ID at least recognize that. Where they err is in thinking that they have a better scientific approach. For their approach does not tell us anything useful about nature, does not help us predict things or explain much about them. It is really more of an approach to proving the existence of God than to providing anything valuable to science.
 
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