The Missing Passover

[rinnie]

catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0605fea1.asp

Hi Kalt, I understand what you are saying, but my point is as Catholic’s we have the proof of written and Tradition. And according to both I believe we have enough evidence to show that Jesus was indeed not married. But on the other side they have no proof at all. Just false interpretations that have no merit. Much is handed down through Tradition which we both know carry’s just as much merit as written. And Tradition say’s no also. That is my point. So we will have to agree to disagree on this point, since we see it differently.

 

[kalt]

Hi Kalt, I understand what you are saying, but my point is as Catholic’s we have the proof of written and Tradition. And according to both I believe we have enough evidence to show that Jesus was indeed not married. But on the other side they have no proof at all. Just false interpretations that have no merit. Much is handed down through Tradition which we both know carry’s just as much merit as written. And Tradition say’s no also. That is my point. So we will have to agree to disagree on this point, since we see it differently.

No, I agree with you. I know that the Church believes that Christ was not married, and I know that some Jews insist, without proof, that he was.

I think we only disagree when it comes to definitive proof. Since wives were routinely left out of Jewish narratives, that simple fact shouldn’t be used as proof that he wasn’t married. It doesn’t prove that at all.

There is other evidence that points to Jesus’ being celibate, though.

 

[rinnie]

No, I agree with you. I know that the Church believes that Christ was not married, and I know that some Jews insist, without proof, that he was.

I think we only disagree when it comes to definitive proof. Since wives were routinely left out of Jewish narratives, that simple fact shouldn’t be used as proof that he wasn’t married. It doesn’t prove that at all.

There is other evidence that points to Jesus’ being celibate, though.

Oh, I understand what you are saying now. But I guess to people like Ben who don’t agree that Jesus is the Son Of God, it really doesn’t matter anyway. What kills me he doesn’t believe in the N.T. anyway so why debate it. You think he would much rather spend his time with God in the best way he can. In a positive manner. Oh well, guess he is still searching or he would not be here at all. I just don’t have the patience with him that I should so its best I avoid him, because to argue isn’t a good thing, and its impossible to discuss things with him. He just hates us so bad. I just feel the need to show scripture when possible to show the truth and then bow out gracefully when it comes to him! Which I will do now. God Bless you Kalt and enjoyed talking with you!

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, you made the point in a debate. It is your job to defend that point.

It is clear that you are unable to, and as I said earlier, it’s accepted by the forum in general, I think, that you have lost the point.

Guys, I think we can stop asking him to defend the debate point (that he knows Jesus was definitely married), because he has only supposition and no definitive proof.

He has already lost the point, and there is no reason to keep asking him for the definitive proof he can’t produce.

**The NT says that Jesus was a Rabbi. If he was not married, the NT is lying. I am Jewish and we are talking about Jewish people and Jewish customs. Gentiles cannot tell us anything about Judaism because they do not know. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

This is one of the more illogical positions that you hold. Jewish people would not write against Jews. I bet that African Americans would not call each other the N word and Italian Americans would not call each other deigos.

If you could look past your hatred and disdain for Christianity for a minute, you would see that the Gospels are not anti-Jewish or anti-Judaism. When the phrase “the Jews” is used, it is almost always referring to that group who faught against the Church.

**So, the gospels are not anti-Jewish! When the gospels falsely accuse the Jews with having killed Jesus, the NT became the source of Antisemitism throughout the world. Jews never faught the Church. On the contrary. You are trying to erase the black page of the history of the church but you won’t succeed. The Christian Crusades and the Catholic Inquisition and blood libels through History will always be there to show what you have done against the Jews. There is nothing you can do to erase those attrocities perpetrated by the Church. Thousands of Jews have been murdered by the Church and History is our witness forever. **

 

[ralphinal]

**So, the gospels are not anti-Jewish! When the gospels falsely accuse the Jews with having killed Jesus, the NT became the source of Antisemitism throughout the world. Jews never faught the Church. On the contrary. You are trying to erase the black page of the history of the church but you won’t succeed. The Christian Crusades and the Catholic Inquisition and blood libels through History will always be there to show what you have done against the Jews. There is nothing you can do to erase those attrocities perpetrated by the Church. Thousands of Jews have been murdered by the Church and History is our witness forever. **

Show me where I once said that these passages were not used for anti-Semitism? You cannot. I am telling you that they were misused.

I do not know why you hate Christianity so much. I do know that, as a rule, Jewish people do not try to recruit people to become Jews. Do you want us to abandon our faith and become Muslim? Or Hindu? I doubt it. What is this vendetta that you have against our faith?

 

[Lapell]

The Missing Passover

We are starting Passover here in Israel. But since the wheels of the Truth cannot stop rolling, I want to bring to your attention the Passover of the year 30 CE. It was supposed to be the last one that Jesus would partake of, and he missed it.

According to John 19:31, that Sabbath was a solemn Sabbath, which is what we call in Hebrew a Shabbaton. That’s when a festival falls on the Sabbath. The KJV brings: “For that Sabbath day was a high day.”

That Sabbath was the 14th of the month of Nissan; the first day of Passover. The beginning of it is celebrated with the Passover Supper at the evening of the previous day, being that year on Friday. That’s what we call the Seder Meal.

In the year 30 CE, the Passover Supper was held on the evening of that Friday. No wonder, everyone somehow connected with the events taking place on the Calvary that day, had to leave it in a hurry to prepare themselves and their houses for the Passover Supper.

Jesus missed that Passover Supper because he was on the cross, and soon afterwards, in the tomb. But then again, how to understand that he celebrated his Passover Supper on the evening of Thursday, which was the 13th of Nissan? He didn’t. In Israel, no Jew would celebrate Passover in a different day alone or in a small group when everyone else would be doing it next day.

This discrepancy is perhaps due to the fact that the gospel writer, writing somehwere in the world, and realizing that the Jews in the Diaspora would celebrate every festival in two days, thought he could have Jesus celebrate the Passover Supper on the 13 of Nissan. It would have worked if Jesus was a Diaspora Jew; but in Israel there is no such a thing.

There is an option in Judaism to celebrate the Passover later, even a month later, if the person was not for some reason ready for it; but NEVER before. It means that, definitely, Jesus missed that Passover celebration, because his reported “Last Supper” did not have anything to do with the Passover Supper.

The gospel writer had either no idea what he was writing about or simply thought we would never find out about his blunder.

Ben

How are you absolutely sure that the Passover in 30 CE started on Friday night and not Thursday? The Gospel doesn’t say a thing about the Last Supper having been held on the eve of the 13th of Nissan.
Moreover, the Passover lasts eight (8) days, not just one day!
Also, isn’t there something special happening on the Sabbath during Passover every year?

 

[Lapell]

So, the gospels are not anti-Jewish! When the gospels falsely accuse the Jews with having killed Jesus, the NT became the source of Antisemitism throughout the world. Jews never fought the Church. On the contrary. You are trying to erase the black page of the history of the church but you won’t succeed.

Ben, dear Ben!
Reading this, one among us Christians might think you are trying to erase a black page in the history of Judaism, especially when you say that “Jews never fought the Church”. I agree it was not all the Jews. But as to the Jewish authorities BACK THEN, yes they did fight against Jesus and then against the Church. Maybe for fear that the Romans would come and kill the Jews if they had let Jesus proclaim himself their king. But whatever the true reason was, yes, they then did!
But then, it would be foolish to hold the whole people of Israel responsible for the execution of Jesus. Like I said, only hold responsible those who made Jesus look as though he was a blasphemer and said loudly AND FREELY: “Death to Jesus”. They and they alone!
Although actually it’s all the piled up sins of all mankind that are responsible for Jesus’ death, really!

 

[Lapell]

**The NT says that Jesus was a Rabbi. If he was not married, the NT is lying. I am Jewish and we are talking about Jewish people and Jewish customs. Gentiles cannot tell us anything about Judaism because they do not know. **

Do you mean to say that a rabbi who remains single simply can’t exist in Judaism? don’t you have Jews who live the celibacy?

 

[SimonArizona]

The Missing Passover

We are starting Passover here in Israel. But since the wheels of the Truth cannot stop rolling, I want to bring to your attention the Passover of the year 30 CE. It was supposed to be the last one that Jesus would partake of, and he missed it.

According to John 19:31, that Sabbath was a solemn Sabbath, which is what we call in Hebrew a Shabbaton. That’s when a festival falls on the Sabbath. The KJV brings: “For that Sabbath day was a high day.”

That Sabbath was the 14th of the month of Nissan; the first day of Passover. The beginning of it is celebrated with the Passover Supper at the evening of the previous day, being that year on Friday. That’s what we call the Seder Meal.

In the year 30 CE, the Passover Supper was held on the evening of that Friday. No wonder, everyone somehow connected with the events taking place on the Calvary that day, had to leave it in a hurry to prepare themselves and their houses for the Passover Supper.

Jesus missed that Passover Supper because he was on the cross, and soon afterwards, in the tomb. But then again, how to understand that he celebrated his Passover Supper on the evening of Thursday, which was the 13th of Nissan? He didn’t. In Israel, no Jew would celebrate Passover in a different day alone or in a small group when everyone else would be doing it next day.

This discrepancy is perhaps due to the fact that the gospel writer, writing somehwere in the world, and realizing that the Jews in the Diaspora would celebrate every festival in two days, thought he could have Jesus celebrate the Passover Supper on the 13 of Nissan. It would have worked if Jesus was a Diaspora Jew; but in Israel there is no such a thing.

There is an option in Judaism to celebrate the Passover later, even a month later, if the person was not for some reason ready for it; but NEVER before. It means that, definitely, Jesus missed that Passover celebration, because his reported “Last Supper” did not have anything to do with the Passover Supper.

The gospel writer had either no idea what he was writing about or simply thought we would never find out about his blunder.

Ben

Jesus celebrated all four cups of the seder passover. When in the garden Jesus prayed that the fourth cup be removed from Him, but nevertheless the Father’s will be done.
Jesus was being slain at the same time as the passover lambs were being slain. He is the passover lamb of God which the old. test. lambs foreshadowed. None of his bones were broken, and the world eats the lamb (his body) to receive the salvation promised by God.

 

[Lapell]

**You are mistaken my friend. I understand you because you are speaking as a Gentile. Jews would not write against Judaism. Those gospels were written by Gentiles disciples of Paul. None of the writings of the Apostles and Nazarenes
was approved into the Canon of the NT by the Fathers of the Church, in the Fourth Century, due to their controversial character vis-a-vis the writings of Paul.

Ben: **

Ben, this time I have to ask: What are your sources and how do you know for certain that they haven’t falsified the truth? You started the debate, so please answer us if you are so certain that you are telling the truth!
If you serve the truth, you won’t accept bearing false witness, but to people who don’t care about the Truth they certainly can tell lies quite peacefully, thank you!
Peace alone isn’t a safe criteria about a person who cares about the Truth.:tsktsk:

 

[Ben_Masada]

How are you absolutely sure that the Passover in 30 CE started on Friday night and not Thursday? The Gospel doesn’t say a thing about the Last Supper having been held on the eve of the 13th of Nissan.
Moreover, the Passover lasts eight (8) days, not just one day!
Also, isn’t there something special happening on the Sabbath during Passover every year?

**Two things that justify your question: The first is that you are not very familiar with your own NT. And the second, I am Jewish and well versed in Jewish laws and customs, and also in the NT.

I know that on that year (30 CE) the 14th of Nisan fell on the evening of Friday. And the day before, as the gospel writers allege, Jesus celebrated the Passover Supper. At the end of the feast, he went with his disciples to the Gethsemani. At night he was arrested, and in the morning he was taken to Pilate, and crucified soon after, which was Friday. Therefore, he is alleged to have celebrated the Passover Feast on the 13th of Nisan. Never happened. The guys who wrote the gospels had no idea of Jewish laws and customs.**

 

[Lapell]

**How about the other Jews? Josephus says that the Romans crucified thousands of Jews. Were not the others also part of the Pascal Lamb? I hope you don’t think that Jesus was the only Jew crucified by the Romans.

Ben: **

Indeed, Ben, there were two other Jews crucified along with Jesus, according to the four Gospels. Still, what is the question “How about the other Jews?” doing here? Were they brought to the Romans by the Jewish religious authorities, too?

 

[SimonArizona]

**Two things that justify your question: The first is that you are not very familiar with your own NT. And the second, I am Jewish and well versed in Jewish laws and customs, and also in the NT.

I know that on that year (30 CE) the 14th of Nisan fell on the evening of Friday. And the day before, as the gospel writers allege, Jesus celebrated the Passover Supper. At the end of the feast, he went with his disciples to the Gethsemani. At night he was arrested, and in the morning he was taken to Pilate, and crucified soon after, which was Friday. Therefore, he is alleged to have celebrated the Passover Feast on the 13th of Nisan. Never happened. The guys who wrote the gospels had no idea of Jewish laws and customs.**

When the Jews asked Jesus why he breaks the rules of the sabbath he said “So that you may know that the Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath.” Jesus institued the Eucharist that night. Even if it was never done before, that doesn’t matter. According to Christianity, Jesus is the artificier of the rules, he institued a new tradition.

 

[Lapell]

**Two things that justify your question: The first is that you are not very familiar with your own NT. And the second, I am Jewish and well versed in Jewish laws and customs, and also in the NT.

I know that on that year (30 CE) the 14th of Nisan fell on the evening of Friday. And the day before, as the gospel writers allege, Jesus celebrated the Passover Supper. At the end of the feast, he went with his disciples to the Gethsemani. At night he was arrested, and in the morning he was taken to Pilate, and crucified soon after, which was Friday. Therefore, he is alleged to have celebrated the Passover Feast on the 13th of Nisan. Never happened. The guys who wrote the gospels had no idea of Jewish laws and customs.**

You still haven’t answered me, Ben!
Your being Jewish, and probably an Orthodox one, doesn’t in itself explain everything! Even you Jews have to do some research to answer questions properly. Again, how are you so sure? Where did you get the information about this? If your sources are many, would that be a problem? Or did you come to this knowledge by an inner revelation coming from God? Are you afraid to answer more explicitly. I thought that true witnesses would not mind telling the truth even about their sources.
For instance, what I said about Sabbath having special things in it in every Passover comes from a book on Judaism by Gugenheim.

 

[SimonArizona]

Lapell relax.

 

[Lapell]

Also, don’t you believe that every Jew, even among the poor, knew when the Passover would begin? It’s the Apostles who ask Jesus where he wanted to spend the Passover? If they would spend it a day too soon, I am sure that they would not let it pass without saying anything!

 

[Lapell]

Lapell relax.

What, does what I say bother you that much? Why do you ask me to relax?

 

[Lapell]

If Ben Masada really means to witness for the real Truth he won’t be afraid to answer my questions directly, don’t worry!
Please relax, Simon!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Lapell,

While remaining calm is usually good advice … it is especially valuable now. Ben is just baiting you. The higher you jump the more he evades. Truly, he will evade until he is before the White Throne - and, then… his evasion, deception and anti-Catholicism will simply evaporate…and, we will all be there to see it.

Truly… relax… and, I would not bother to respond to any more of Ben’s baiting - to him this is a game, to us it is serious. So, be serious - and just seriously ignore him.

God bless

If Ben Masada really means to witness for the real Truth he won’t be afraid to answer my questions directly, don’t worry!
Please relax, Simon!