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Lapell
Guest
I don’t know that I believe IN miracles. But yes, I believe that sometimes, miracles happen… I’d rather believe in the God who makes these miracles happen than in the miracles themselves!
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Ben_Masada
Guest
Then what about the questions raised by Job about the injustices, iniquities and inequalities on earth, where some bad people die happily and some good people die miserably?
The book of Job is an allegorical Jewish novel with the purpose to reveal the place of Israel in the designs of God.
Did you read Rabbi Harold Kushner’s book Why Do Bad Things Happen To Good People? One example close to us: "Why did the 6 millions Jews, including women and children, perish at the hands of the Nazis? Many were gased, many were murdered after hjaving been forced to dig their own mass-graves? What great individual sins did each of them commit, tell me? Many were faithful to God’s Torah, I am convinced.
They just happened to have been on the wrong place at the wrong time.
This example in itself is enough to raise the inevitable question about God’ retribution here on earth?
Nothing to do with God’s retribution. Retribution is caused by the works of our own hands.
Even in Jeremiah’s time at the time of the exile to Babylon, a Biblical text says: “Even the priest, even the prophet doesn’t understand”.
That’s like when someone gets cancer and his or her relatives say that they do not understand why that happened.
There is happiness in fulfilling misvoth, yes. But what would you answer to this?
That the happiness to fulfill mitzvot has nothing to do with our misfortunes.
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Lapell
Guest
“They just happened to have been on the wrong place at the wrong time” … somehow, this “answer” just can’t satisfy me in any way. Have you acquired somehow the mentality of a slave to say a thing like that?
As for the last sentence, I couldn’t agree more!
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
Shalome Ben. I know that when Jesus came, the Jews were being persecuted and they did believe in Him but they thought he came to free them and riegn on earth at the time. I know they were disapointed and then felt betrayed because they saw this Massiah who was looking at the time that he couldn’t even redeem himself, and they were full of doubt. They did not realize he came here for all mankind to forfil his Fathers will, Look See Ben:John 17:1-5 Jesus pray’s for himself to! After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:"Father, the time has come.Glorify your Son,"that your Son may glorify you.For you granted him authority over all the people that he may give eternal life to all those you have given to him.Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ,whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by compleating the work you gave me to do. And now, Father,glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before this world began. You are Loved Nancy
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Ben_Masada
Guest
If you think a slave is able to come up with that idea, he must be a genius. Tell me, those 250,000 people who died in that Suname. Was God to blame or themselves for being on the wrong place at the wrong time? Think it through with commonsense.
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GraceDK
Guest
Dear Ben Masada.
You are in Israel… wonderful. Thats my favourite place… I love Jerusalem more than I can express and have been there now so many times.
Anyway… I want to challenge you…
Why was Yeshua’s 12 apostles willing to die the most horrible martyr death for their claim that Yeshua was Messhiah, the Anointed Lord and that He resurrected??? Who is willing to live as an outcast and wander around without rest in order to spread a word one does not believe in one self? Do you know that some of the apostles were also crucified? Others were stoned… to this day the persecution has not ended. Christians are the most persecuted group in the world… but the world has forgotten them.
If the apostles had not truly seen Yeshua as the resurrected Lord… then why would they die by testifying to this… a Truth for which they were given no eartly credit, and, if they were to die as liars they would perish, so what was in it for them…? You must think these Jewish men were nuts in the head.
And as for the essene theory… its nonsense. Jesus was no essene.
He came for the whole people of Israel at the appointed time.
I suspect you dare not look at all the prophesies about Yeshua in Jewish Scripture, because if you do, then you will realise that the time of Messhiah was the exact time, and you will see that His death and resurrection was foretold. But I understand your fear … son of Masada… if you testify that Yeshua is Messiah then you will receive the same treatment as other Jews who have come to embrace Him… you will be called a traitor by your own people.
Shalom to you and your house.
You are in Israel… wonderful. Thats my favourite place… I love Jerusalem more than I can express and have been there now so many times.
Anyway… I want to challenge you…
Why was Yeshua’s 12 apostles willing to die the most horrible martyr death for their claim that Yeshua was Messhiah, the Anointed Lord and that He resurrected??? Who is willing to live as an outcast and wander around without rest in order to spread a word one does not believe in one self? Do you know that some of the apostles were also crucified? Others were stoned… to this day the persecution has not ended. Christians are the most persecuted group in the world… but the world has forgotten them.
If the apostles had not truly seen Yeshua as the resurrected Lord… then why would they die by testifying to this… a Truth for which they were given no eartly credit, and, if they were to die as liars they would perish, so what was in it for them…? You must think these Jewish men were nuts in the head.
And as for the essene theory… its nonsense. Jesus was no essene.
He came for the whole people of Israel at the appointed time.
I suspect you dare not look at all the prophesies about Yeshua in Jewish Scripture, because if you do, then you will realise that the time of Messhiah was the exact time, and you will see that His death and resurrection was foretold. But I understand your fear … son of Masada… if you testify that Yeshua is Messiah then you will receive the same treatment as other Jews who have come to embrace Him… you will be called a traitor by your own people.
Shalom to you and your house.
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Ben_Masada
Guest
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Ben_Masada
Guest
Nancy, do you happen to know when this above was written? More than 50 years after Jesus had been gone. It sounds more like Pauline rhetoric. This was fabricated with the purpose to document the Pauline Christology. I wish we could find some of the writings of the Nazarenes, followers of Jesus, to see the real version about Jesus’ life.
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SteveLohr
Guest
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
Hello Ben, What about the 12 that walked with him and wrote down everything he said and did, because they knew he was the Messiah! By the way do you have any Prophets that talked about Jesus at the time before his death? I was Just wondering. I have something for you
DON’T LOOK DOWN
Jacob’s ladder is a metaphor for prayer.
Let’s look at the famous dream in which Jacob sees a vision of a ladder. The feet of the ladder are planted firmly on the ground and the head reaches the heavens, with angels ascending and descending.
G-d is Infinite, yet He created a finite world with finite beings in it. How do we reconcile the finite with the Infinite? Just like the ladder in Jacob’s dream, we are provided with our own ladder - the mystical Zohar text tells us Jacob’s ladder is a metaphor for prayer.
Through prayer (and the performance of the Torah’s commandments), stage-by-stage, rung-by-rung, we are connecting the finite, material world with the Infinite. The base may be rooted on the earth, the finite, but the highest step reaches the Heavens, the Infinite.
Life is compared to a ladder. The deciding factor is not how high you have reached, but which way you are going - up or down. Better to be at the bottom yet ascending than at the top but descending.’
A story is told of a very smart child who, despite being very young, had managed to climb very high up a tall tree. When his father asked him how he had managed it, he told him “simple - I didn’t look down”.
It is well known that one way to avoid or at least decrease the fear of heights is “not to look down”. So too, in our lives, by always aspiring to go one better, looking towards the future and not looking down, backwards, into the past, the task of moving on to the next rung of the ladder becomes far less formidable.
Love of Christ Nancy
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Ben_Masada
Guest
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
HI Ben, BUT don’t you believe in life after death? even in the old testement they spoke of shelo, and they knew their Messiah was comming. Even in Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 so if you believe in that what would be so hard in believing that Jesus rose from the dead? God Bless Nancy
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Ben_Masada
Guest
**And where are the writings of the 12 who wrote everything that Jesus said and did? Because what we have in the gospels are too Hellenistic. I am sure the 12 would never connect Jesus with Greek Mythology.
If the 12 knew Jesus was the Messiah, what were they preaching about Jesus in Jerusalem for 30 years to coexist peacefully with mainstream Judaism? When Paul showed up teaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected, he was nearly killed by the local Jews from preaching apostasy.
If you mean any reference to Jesus in the Tanach, there is none. No Prophet ever talked about Jesus before his death. All the references about the Messiah, or anointed of the Lord, or Suffering Servant is to Israel, the People. Please, don’t think I am stiff necked. I cannot make something up by faith just to please you.**
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
Ben, 
But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5: 2
Rabbinical writings of the day (such as the Jerusalem Talmud and the Targum Palestine) understood Micah’s prophecy (which was given 700+ BC) to mean that the Messiah must come from Bethlehem.
TALMUD YERUSHALMI states:
“…King Messiah is born…he is from the royal palace of Bethlehem Judah.”
How to Recognise the Messiah
And the New Testament (which we have already seen is historically accurate - see section under Archeology) testifies that Jesus was born in Bethlehem:
"Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.” When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. So they said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet: ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, Are not the least among the rulers of Judah; For out of you shall come a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel.’ " Then Herod, when he had secretly called the wise men, determined from them what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the young Child, and when you have found Him, bring back word to me, that I may come to Him and worship Him also.” Matthew 2: 1-8
You are Loved Nancy
But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5: 2Rabbinical writings of the day (such as the Jerusalem Talmud and the Targum Palestine) understood Micah’s prophecy (which was given 700+ BC) to mean that the Messiah must come from Bethlehem.
TALMUD YERUSHALMI states:
“…King Messiah is born…he is from the royal palace of Bethlehem Judah.”
How to Recognise the Messiah
And the New Testament (which we have already seen is historically accurate - see section under Archeology) testifies that Jesus was born in Bethlehem:
"Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.” When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. So they said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet: ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, Are not the least among the rulers of Judah; For out of you shall come a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel.’ " Then Herod, when he had secretly called the wise men, determined from them what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the young Child, and when you have found Him, bring back word to me, that I may come to Him and worship Him also.” Matthew 2: 1-8
You are Loved Nancy
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Ben_Masada
Guest
There is no such a thing as life after death. Death is final. This idea serves only to make our loyalty to God conditional, which becomes worthy menstrual rags. No, I don’t believe in afterlife. That’s a contradiction to the Scriputures. And you had to mention exactly the book of Ecclesiastes. The whole book is against the idea. And regarding Jesus’ resurrection, who was an eyewitness to it?
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
It is said in scripture over 500 people he appered to, and how can you believe in God and not life after death? that sounds strange to me. What are you talking about Ben chapter 12 verses 6-7 say’s there is life after death, you go back to God. What part of that don’t you understand? And what time is it in Isreal right now? It is 2:55 am and i need to go to bed. what time tomorrow should we discuss this again? You will be there Ben and you will see me there also, and then you will be sad you denied our (yes your’s and mine) saviour. I can’t believe you dont believe in life after death! Why do you waste your time praying to someone you will never see? I sure wouldn’t. Good night Ben, you still are loved Nancy
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Ben_Masada
Guest
Ben,
**That’s a prophecy for the establishment of Judah to stay forever as the sole ruler over all the Land of Israel, according to God’s promise to David. (I Kings 11:36) **
Rabbinical writings of the day (such as the Jerusalem Talmud and the Targum Palestine) understood Micah’s prophecy (which was given 700+ BC) to mean that the Messiah must come from Bethlehem.
When the 12 Tribes arrived in Canaan, Bethlehem became the capital for the province of Judah. From there came David, who became the symbol of Judah.
TALMUD YERUSHALMI states:
“…King Messiah is born…he is from the royal palace of Bethlehem Judah.”
**Right, that’s the People of Judah. **
How to Recognise the Messiah
**Not too hard. Who rules over the Land of Israel, are they not the Jews? **
And the New Testament (which we have already seen is historically accurate - see section under Archeology) testifies that Jesus was born in Bethlehem:
**And so were thousands of Jews. **
"Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”
**Nevertheless, Jesus never became king of the Jews. **
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
OH Ben, I desided not to go to bed right now, just to answer. When it is said the Messiah it means ONE person not the whole nation, and yes Jesus is king of the Jews because he is King of all. All 12 tribes are his, but not all of the 12 tribes will go to the Father, many will be judged for their non belief. When you or the Jews believe in Jesus it will be just before he comes back and do you know why they will believe? Because he will come to rescue them from the hands of the enemy’s and then they will know he is God and every knee will bow and every eye will see, and every toung will confess, that Jesus Christ is LORD! Even so Lord Jesus come. Love of Christ Nancy Shalome Ben.:extrahappy:
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SteveLohr
Guest
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GraceDK
Guest
**Ben Masada;
Why are the Arabs willing to die the most horrible martyr death by exploding themselves?**
You missed the point I was trying to make. We can be sure that every martyr, whether Jewish, Muslim or Christian, die because they are sure they are dying for the truth.
However, you are not willing to die for something that you know is not true. Apostles means “eye witnesses”. They saw the risen Messiah and was willing to die rather than deny that He is alive. You get the point?
Thousands of Jews were crucified. You guys are the ones who need to be reminded because you speak of the crucifixion of Jesus as he was the only one to be crucified by the Romans.
Again you assume things about me. I am well aware that crucifixion was a common form of punishment in the RE and countless rebels, messiah-pretendants and others have been tortured to death on this horrible instrument. You need not be condescending. I am not ignorant athough we disagree on the identity of the Messiah of Israel.
Again, my point was to say: why let your self be crucified for saying that you have seen the living Messiah, if in fact you know you never have?
Please, Grace, do not speak to me about Christian persecution! Have you forgotten whom you are speaking to? A member of a People who have suffered more persecution at the hands of Christians than of any other people on earth.
Ben Masada. You say we speak as if Yeshua is the only one to have died on the cross. I could say you speak as though the Jews are the only ones who have suffered. The first Christian martyr, Stephen, was stoned to death by Jewish pharisees, every third priest in Poland was killed in the KZ-camps (all together 3 million non-Jewish Poles were killed during the time of Nazism and they were called “subhuman”.) In Communist and now in most Muslim countries the Christian people are persecuted more or less severely. Top of the list is N-Korea where Christians are put in concentration camps and tortured… not alone they but their whole family too. As Jews have suffered, you would think they feel much compassion with others, or has the pain of your ancestors made you numb?
While growing up I read the dairy of Anne Frank 3 times and thought of her as my best friend. I read countless other books on the Shoah too. lastly I read “The Night”. Early on I started loving the Jewish people… simply like they were my family. Also I could hardly bear to think they could be cruel, after all that happend to them, so I was very one-sided in my view of the Israeli nation for many years. Then I saw the Israeli documentary: “To see if I am smiling”,and my heart broke in so many tears both for the Israelis and the Palestinians.
Now I have been in the Holy Land 4 times… lived there 10 months and God has taught me so much. My love for the chosen people is still huge. I think that any kind of substitution theology is a vulgar error.
God has also shown me His heart for the Palestinian people, who, even the apolitical who just go about their daily business, are often treated very badly by the Israelis and their lives are made difficult so that ever more resentment is born. Also to my sadness many orthodox Jews are now eager to supress different thinking- individuals: A “shalom” from my wonderful priest was met with spittle in his face… And that is just one of many incidents. There is so much poison in the human heart, Ben Masada. Pope John Paul said: “The church must always ask forgiveness for the times where Christians did evil or where they passively stood by while evil was comitted”. Hitler was a nazi. Not a Christian. His doctrine was based on darwinism and Nietzshe. He looked down on Christianity and called it “a religion for the weak”. He looked up to Islam and SS-documents shows that Hitler was planning to take care of the Christian problem when he had dealt with the Jewish one.
The Jews have suffered greatly in mideval Europe by the hands of people who called themselves Christians. However, the vast majority of progroms came after the papacy lost its power… before that time the Jews appealed to the papacy for help against the masses and the papacy helped them to some extent to be able to live and work freely… (Eg. this can be seen from the binding papal document “Sicut Judais”). At that time neither Jews nor Christians liked each other much. A Jew would find a Christian unclean and would not eat with him at table or intermarry… and the other way around. Those were different times…
But Yeshua was and remains the Jewish Messiah, why any antisemitism is both absurd and evil from a truly Christian perspective.
Sometimes I cannot help but wonder… if the Jews had ruled the lands instead of the Christians, would no one have died, would no one have been persecuted… would no posterity have to apoligize for horrendous genocides? Its not a question I can answer. I can only realise that the wound of the Jewish people is still bleeding because of the role they have had, and that must never be belittled.
The Lord said: “Whatever you did to one of the least of the brothers of mine, you did it to Me”.
**They were nor liars neither nuts in the head. They just never testified of Jesus’ resurrection. When Paul wrote to his disciple Timothy, he said that the resurrection of Jesus was according to his gospel. (II Tim. 2:8) Opposite to what gospel? Obviously the gospel of the Apostles (Gal. 1:6-10) **
This statement is absurd. I can only advice you to read the New Testament again. Its a very short book.
**You are mistaken about me Grace. That fear to be called a trator is not what prevents me from becoming a Christian. It’s Logic and commonsense. I just can’t see Jesus in the pages of the Scriptures. Isaiah the Prophet mentions the Messiah by name, so that you don’t have to assume that he was Jesus. Your assumption **
Lets start a new thread about messianic prophesy in Jewish Scripture.
Shalom to you.
Why are the Arabs willing to die the most horrible martyr death by exploding themselves?**
You missed the point I was trying to make. We can be sure that every martyr, whether Jewish, Muslim or Christian, die because they are sure they are dying for the truth.
However, you are not willing to die for something that you know is not true. Apostles means “eye witnesses”. They saw the risen Messiah and was willing to die rather than deny that He is alive. You get the point?
Thousands of Jews were crucified. You guys are the ones who need to be reminded because you speak of the crucifixion of Jesus as he was the only one to be crucified by the Romans.
Again you assume things about me. I am well aware that crucifixion was a common form of punishment in the RE and countless rebels, messiah-pretendants and others have been tortured to death on this horrible instrument. You need not be condescending. I am not ignorant athough we disagree on the identity of the Messiah of Israel.
Again, my point was to say: why let your self be crucified for saying that you have seen the living Messiah, if in fact you know you never have?
Please, Grace, do not speak to me about Christian persecution! Have you forgotten whom you are speaking to? A member of a People who have suffered more persecution at the hands of Christians than of any other people on earth.
Ben Masada. You say we speak as if Yeshua is the only one to have died on the cross. I could say you speak as though the Jews are the only ones who have suffered. The first Christian martyr, Stephen, was stoned to death by Jewish pharisees, every third priest in Poland was killed in the KZ-camps (all together 3 million non-Jewish Poles were killed during the time of Nazism and they were called “subhuman”.) In Communist and now in most Muslim countries the Christian people are persecuted more or less severely. Top of the list is N-Korea where Christians are put in concentration camps and tortured… not alone they but their whole family too. As Jews have suffered, you would think they feel much compassion with others, or has the pain of your ancestors made you numb?
While growing up I read the dairy of Anne Frank 3 times and thought of her as my best friend. I read countless other books on the Shoah too. lastly I read “The Night”. Early on I started loving the Jewish people… simply like they were my family. Also I could hardly bear to think they could be cruel, after all that happend to them, so I was very one-sided in my view of the Israeli nation for many years. Then I saw the Israeli documentary: “To see if I am smiling”,and my heart broke in so many tears both for the Israelis and the Palestinians.
Now I have been in the Holy Land 4 times… lived there 10 months and God has taught me so much. My love for the chosen people is still huge. I think that any kind of substitution theology is a vulgar error.
God has also shown me His heart for the Palestinian people, who, even the apolitical who just go about their daily business, are often treated very badly by the Israelis and their lives are made difficult so that ever more resentment is born. Also to my sadness many orthodox Jews are now eager to supress different thinking- individuals: A “shalom” from my wonderful priest was met with spittle in his face… And that is just one of many incidents. There is so much poison in the human heart, Ben Masada. Pope John Paul said: “The church must always ask forgiveness for the times where Christians did evil or where they passively stood by while evil was comitted”. Hitler was a nazi. Not a Christian. His doctrine was based on darwinism and Nietzshe. He looked down on Christianity and called it “a religion for the weak”. He looked up to Islam and SS-documents shows that Hitler was planning to take care of the Christian problem when he had dealt with the Jewish one.
The Jews have suffered greatly in mideval Europe by the hands of people who called themselves Christians. However, the vast majority of progroms came after the papacy lost its power… before that time the Jews appealed to the papacy for help against the masses and the papacy helped them to some extent to be able to live and work freely… (Eg. this can be seen from the binding papal document “Sicut Judais”). At that time neither Jews nor Christians liked each other much. A Jew would find a Christian unclean and would not eat with him at table or intermarry… and the other way around. Those were different times…
But Yeshua was and remains the Jewish Messiah, why any antisemitism is both absurd and evil from a truly Christian perspective.
Sometimes I cannot help but wonder… if the Jews had ruled the lands instead of the Christians, would no one have died, would no one have been persecuted… would no posterity have to apoligize for horrendous genocides? Its not a question I can answer. I can only realise that the wound of the Jewish people is still bleeding because of the role they have had, and that must never be belittled.
The Lord said: “Whatever you did to one of the least of the brothers of mine, you did it to Me”.
**They were nor liars neither nuts in the head. They just never testified of Jesus’ resurrection. When Paul wrote to his disciple Timothy, he said that the resurrection of Jesus was according to his gospel. (II Tim. 2:8) Opposite to what gospel? Obviously the gospel of the Apostles (Gal. 1:6-10) **
This statement is absurd. I can only advice you to read the New Testament again. Its a very short book.
**You are mistaken about me Grace. That fear to be called a trator is not what prevents me from becoming a Christian. It’s Logic and commonsense. I just can’t see Jesus in the pages of the Scriptures. Isaiah the Prophet mentions the Messiah by name, so that you don’t have to assume that he was Jesus. Your assumption **
Lets start a new thread about messianic prophesy in Jewish Scripture.
Shalom to you.
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