The Missing Passover

[SteveLohr]

Isaiah 63:16
But you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

Isaiah 64:8
Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.

Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one** Father **? Did not one God create us?

What is this nonsense about “Palestinian Judaism”??? The area was not called Palestine until 70 AD when the Romans crushed Judah and renamed the area Palestine in a failed attempt to destroy the memory of the Jewish state. Judaism is Judaism – the covenant of the People of Israel.

Prodigal Child-
The Hebrew word in Isaiah 63:16 and 64:8 is awb (Strong’s number H1). This means the father of an individual, of God as father of His people, head or founder of a household, group, family or clan. Malachi 2:10 uses ab, from the same root, which corresponds to Strong’s H1. In contrast, the word Abba (Strong’s G5) is written only 3 times in scripture: Mark 14:36, Romans 8: 15, and Galatians 4:6. It is a term of endearment, approximating “Daddy” or “dear Father," i.e, a more personal title.

As far as my use of the term “Palestinian Judaism.” You are correct the area was called Palestine after 70 AD by the Romans. I was attempting to evoke this time period, i.e., the time of the Roman occupation as opposed to modern Jewish practices that Ben was refering to. If you recall, Ben stated that he uses the word “father,” so he was not persuaded my claim that Jesus’ use of Abba indicated Jesus’ claim of divinity. My point was that Jews during the Second Temple period did not use the familar term “Abba” for God. I stand by that position. Perhaps I could have used the term “Second Temple period.” However, because of the assocation of the term Palestine with the time of the Roman occupation, I thought it conveyed the temporal meaning I intended. Additionally, the term “Second Temple period” does not include the post-70 timeframe. Given we were discussing Jewish practices in this era, I thought that the “Second Temple” reference wasn’t quiet accurate. I am open as to suggestions as to how better to convey this particular time period.

Regards,
SteveLohr

 

[Prodigal_Child]

Prodigal Child-
The Hebrew word in Isaiah 63:16 and 64:8 is awb (Strong’s number H1). This means the father of an individual, of God as father of His people, head or founder of a household, group, family or clan. Malachi 2:10 uses ab, from the same root, which corresponds to Strong’s H1. In contrast, the word Abba (Strong’s G5) is written only 3 times in scripture: Mark 14:36, Romans 8: 15, and Galatians 4:6. It is a term of endearment, approximating “Daddy” or “dear Father," i.e, a more personal title.

Dear Steve:

As you say, abba is used only three times in the new Testament. It is no more endering than Avi. The standard Hebraic phrase for Our Father is Avinu, as in the total phrase Avinu Malkenu, Our Father Our King. Avinu Malkenu is found like a zillion times in the Siddur (Jewish Prayer book). The prayer book was being formed at roughly the same time as the New Testament, with the oldest section being the Amidah (Standing Prayer) --already in effect during the time of Jesus.

 

[Prodigal_Child]

Hello Prodigal child, what is ment by this statement? What gospel account? When was it if not in 30AD? God Bless Nancy

Here is the Matthew 26 account. Reclining is part of the Passover meal ritual:
17On the first day of the **Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”
18He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.’ " 19So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover.
20When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table **with the Twelve.

Here is the Mark 14 account:b

12On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to g make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”
13So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. 14Say to the owner of the house he enters, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ 15He will show you a large upper room, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there.” 16The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover. 17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were **reclining at the table **eating, he said,

Luke’s account is almost identical

Here is John’s account (and why there is foot washing on Holy Thursday):
1It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.
2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus. 3Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples’ feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

I don’t know what year it took place. I was always taught it was AROUND 33 AD but no one knows for sure which year. All I can say is that according to the accounts, it would have to be a year where the first day of Pesach started Wednesday at Sundown, since the Passover Sacrifice was done on Thursday and they enjoyed reclining at the Seder meal after sundown Thursday, the second day of Passover. That would mean that Jesus died the second day of Passover, a day still part of the feast but less restrictive than the first day and less restrictive than Shabbat.

 

[Prodigal_Child]

bump

 

[Prodigal_Child]

HI Ben! Jesus is Lord, and He fulfiled the scriptures, how ever you are waiting for I feel for you, because your in for a rude awakening when you see Yashuma come in the clouds. I love you Ben and I am praying for you. God is good. Nancy

This is a rude way to treat a guest.

Romans 9:4-5 the people of Israel: Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs,…

Acts 26:7 our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, …

Remember that God will bless those who bless them, and curse those who curse them.

 

[Prodigal_Child]

Dear STeve:

I’ve had the time to get out my Hebrew Tanakh, and look up both Isaiah quotes. They are not “awb” but “avinu” as I suspected. So you are mistaken. Avinu is the plural version (our) of Avi, which is what you hear little kids call their dads.

The point is that understanding that God is father as well as King is very much an intrinsic part of Judaism.

 

[Ben_Masada]

HI Ben! Jesus is Lord, and He fulfiled the scriptures, how ever you are waiting for I feel for you, because your in for a rude awakening when you see Yashuma come in the clouds. I love you Ben and I am praying for you. God is good. Nancy

Hi Nancy, do you recall what is written in Mark 12:29? Anyways, take a look at it. Once a Scribe approached Jesus and asked him which, in his opinion, was the first of the commandments. Jesus answered and said, “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One and the ONLY Lord.” Now, you tell me that Jesus is Lord, when he said that God is Lord alone. Whom should I trust, you or Jesus? Not too hard a choice, don’t you agree?

 

[wolfgang]

:compcoff:

 

[Ben_Masada]

:compcoff:

**Michael is the angel of Israel. Therefore, it is on my side. **

 

[SteveLohr]

I don’t know what year it took place. I was always taught it was AROUND 33 AD but no one knows for sure which year. All I can say is that according to the accounts, it would have to be a year where the first day of Pesach started Wednesday at Sundown, since the Passover Sacrifice was done on Thursday and they enjoyed reclining at the Seder meal after sundown Thursday, the second day of Passover. That would mean that Jesus died the second day of Passover, a day still part of the feast but less restrictive than the first day and less restrictive than Shabbat.

I believe most scholars date the crucifixion as occuring in 32 or 33 AD, with 33 AD seeming to have the majority of support. As you state, no one is sure of the exact date.

Regards,
Steve

 

[SteveLohr]

Dear STeve:

I’ve had the time to get out my Hebrew Tanakh, and look up both Isaiah quotes. They are not “awb” but “avinu” as I suspected. So you are mistaken. Avinu is the plural version (our) of Avi, which is what you hear little kids call their dads.

The point is that understanding that God is father as well as King is very much an intrinsic part of Judaism.

Prodigal Child-Thank you for your response, and your inclusion of citations. My reference to the Strong numbers comes from
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, 1st Edition, Copyright : Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 1998, Parsons Technology, Inc.

However, I have checked the Tanakh, and you have cited it accurately. Accordingly, I’m thinking now that my Strong’s may be in error on this point.

I’ve also done more research into the definition of Abba, and it appears the weight of scholarship is against my original posting, ie, that Abba was a familar form of “Daddy.” See Barr, J., “Abba isn’t Daddy”, Journal of Theological Studies, 39 (1988), pages 28-47. In my defense, I would note that the original theory was proposed by a well-regarded scholar, Joachim Jeremias. However, I must acknowledge when the weight of the argument goes against me.

With that being said, my reference to “Abba” was one argument of eight for the proposition that Jesus both explicitly and implicitly claimed divine status. I would be curious to hear what you think of this argument. To summarize the argument, I also cited:

1. Jesus’ use of the term Son of Man.
2. Implicit Christology
   (i) Jesus prayed to God using the familiar term “Abba” (already discussed above)

(ii) The parable of the wicked tenants (Mark 12:1-9).

(iii) Jesus identifies himself as the Son in Mark 13:32
(iv) Jesus’ claim in Matthew 11:27

(v) Jesus claimed to act with divine authority. See Matt 7:28-29;Matt 5:31-32, Mark 10:2-12;Luke 11:20;Mark 2:6-9;John 5:36). See also John 10:37-38

(6) Jesus believed himself able to perform miracles.

(7) Jesus claimed to determine the eternal destiny of people. (Luke 12:8-9).

Regards,
SteveLohr

 

[GraceDK]

Dear STeve:

I’ve had the time to get out my Hebrew Tanakh, and look up both Isaiah quotes. They are not “awb” but “avinu” as I suspected. So you are mistaken. Avinu is the plural version (our) of Avi, which is what you hear little kids call their dads.

The point is that understanding that God is father as well as King is very much an intrinsic part of Judaism.

Dear Prodigal Child.

If you have in fact ever known Jesus personally I am sure you are not eager to sell out on Him and betray Him and you must be going through great distress. So if you don’t mind I would recommend two books for you and one webpage:

• Betrayed
  by Stan Telchin, a Jewish man who has become an Evangelical Christian. This short book is his testimony of how he thought it was a catastrophe when his daughter told him she had become a believer in Yeshua. He set out to disprove her and by trying to do this, reading the Scriptures very thoroughly and talking to various teachers, he found out that Yeshua really is Messiah.
  The other one is called
• Honey from the Rock. This is a collection of testimonies from Jewish converts to Catholicism… Its one of the most awesome books ever… very beautiful.
  And lastly… I warmly recommend www.catholicsforisrael.com which is a homepage made by a dear friend of mine. He is a Catholic but he has lived in Jerusalem many years, knows EVERYTHING about Judaism and speaks fluently hebrew. He loves the Jews greatly…
  So do I by the way. That love for the Jews and all things Jewish is only stengthened by our love for the Jewish Messiah.
  www.catholicsforisrael.com
  ( on OT prophesy: israelcatholic.com/content/view/49/77/lang,en/ )… do not forget to study the words of the prophet Daniel who foretold at what time the Messiah would come. And also do read the words of Zachariah as he foretells the second coming of the Messiah when Jerusalem will finally recognize Him: "On that day they will look to Me, Him they have pierced, they will mourn Him like one mourns an only Son, a first born(…) on that day a source is revealed which will cleanse from sin and imprity… " (Zachariah 12: 9 -).

Jesus says: “what more do you want, that I have not already given?”

 

[GraceDK]

Prodigal Child-Thank you for your response,
With that being said, my reference to “Abba” was one argument of eight for the proposition that Jesus both explicitly and implicitly claimed divine status. I would be curious to hear what you think of this argument.
To summarize the argument, I also cited:

1. Jesus’ use of the term Son of Man.
2. Implicit Christology
   (i) Jesus prayed to God using the familiar term “Abba” (already discussed above)

(ii) The parable of the wicked tenants (Mark 12:1-9).

(iii) Jesus identifies himself as the Son in Mark 13:32
(iv) Jesus’ claim in Matthew 11:27

(v) Jesus claimed to act with divine authority. See Matt 7:28-29;Matt 5:31-32, Mark 10:2-12;Luke 11:20;Mark 2:6-9;John 5:36). See also John 10:37-38

(6) Jesus believed himself able to perform miracles.

(7) Jesus claimed to determine the eternal destiny of people. (Luke 12:8-9).

Regards,
SteveLohr

Ps… also, I would note for your list that Jesus was born of a virgin, or so is the claim. He was conceived through the Holy Spirit having no eartly father.

 

[SteveLohr]

Ps… also, I would note for your list that Jesus was born of a virgin, or so is the claim. He was conceived through the Holy Spirit having no eartly father.

Grace-I agree that this is an example of one of the prophecies regarding Jesus. However,my post in this instance was regarding whether Jesus made claims of divinity for himself. But I agreee with you-when you include the fulfillled prophecies regarding Jesus, the evidence that He is the Messiah becomes overwhelming. Below is a post I made previously on the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled:

1. Micah foretells Jesus’ birthplace in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2
   2.-Malachi, Isaiah predicts John the Baptist. Isa. 40:3; Mal. 3:1
   3.-Zechariah in approx 520-480 CE predicts that Jesus would arrive on a donkey. Zechariah 9:9
   4.-King David may have predicted that Jesus would be betrayed. Psalm 41:9
   5.-King David may have predicted the crucifixion. Psalm 22:16
   6.-Zechariah may have predicted the price of Judas for betraying Jesus. Also the ultimate use of the money. Zechariah 11:4-13
   7.-Isaiah predicted Jesus’ remaining silent before his accusers. Isaiah 53:7
   8.-Isaiah predicted Jesus would be crucified with thieves. Isaiah 53:12

The odds of just these eight prophecies being fulfilled in one man is roughly
1:100,000,000,000,000,000
(Source: Stoner, Peter, Science Speaks. Chicago: Moody Press, 1963, pg. 100-07. A copy is available at geocities.com/stonerdon/science_speaks.html )

However, There are more prophecies:

-The Messiah was to be born from a virgin. Isaiah 7:14.
-Messiah was to enter Jerusalem in triumph. Zechariah 9:9
-The Messiah was to die as a sacrifice for sin. Isaiah 53:5
-The Messiah would be from the seed of Abraham (Gen 22:18-Matt 1:1)
-The Messiah would come from the linage of Isaac (Gen 21:12-Luke 3:34)
-The Messiah would be from the linage of Jacob (Num 24:17-Luke 3:34)
-The Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah (Gen 49:10-Luke 3:33)
-The Messiah would not respond to his accusers (Isaiah 53:7-Matt 27:12-19)
-The Messiah would be wounded and bruised (Isaiah 53:5-Matt 27:26)
-The Messiah would be smitten and spit upon (Isaiah 50:6-Matt 26:67)
-The Messiah would be mocked (Psalms 22:2-8-Matt 27:31
-The Messiah’s hands and feet would be pierced (Psalms 22:16-Luke 23:33)
-The Messiah would make intercession for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12-Luke 23:34)
-The Messiah would be hated by His own people (Isaiah 53:3-John 7:5, 48)
-The Messiah would be hated without cause (Psalms 69:4-John 15:25)
-The Messiah’s friends would stand far off (Psalm 38:11-Luke 23:49)
-People shook their heads at Him (Psalms 109:25-Matt 27:39)
-They divided His garments and cast lots for them (Psalm 22:18-John 19:23, 24)
-He was to suffer thirst (Psalms 69:21)
-They offered him gall and vinegar to drink (Psalms 69:21-Matt 27:34)
-He cried aloud ‘My God, My God” (Psalms 22:1-Matt 27:46
-He committed his Spirit (Psalm 31:5-Luke 23:46)
-His bones were not broken (Psalms 34:20-John 19:33)
-His heart was broken (Psalms 22:14-John 19:34)
-His side was pierced (Zech 12:10-John 19:34)
-Darkness would come over the land (Amos 8:9-Matt 27:45)
-He would be buried in a rich man’s grave (Isaiah 53:9-Matt 27:57-60)
-The Messiah would be from the line of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1-Luke 3:23, 32)
-The Messiah would be from the House of David (Jerm 23:5-Luke 3:23, 31)
-The Messiah would be called Lord (Psalms 110:1-Luke 2:11)
-The Messiah would be a prophet (Deut 18:18-Matt 21:11)
-The Messiah would be a priest (Psalms 110:4-Heb 3:1)
-The Messiah would be a judge (Isaiah 33:22-John 5:30)
-The Messiah would be a King (Psalms 2:6-Matt 27:37)
-The Messiah would have the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2-Matt 3:16-17)
-The Messiah would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5, 6-Matt 9:35)
-The Messiah would teach in parables (Psalm 78:2-Matt 13:34)
-The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9-Matt 10:4)
-The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zech 11:12-Matt 26:15)
-The money would be thrown in God’s house (Zech 11:13-Matt 27:5)
-The Messiah would be forsaken by His disciples (Zech 13:7-Mark 14:50)
-The Messiah would be accused by false witnesses (Psalm 35:11-Matt 26:59-61)

Odds of forty-three of the prophecies being fulfilled are 10 raised to the 156th power, i.e., :
1:100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000

(Source: Stoner, Peter, Science Speaks. Chicago: Moody Press, 1963, pg. 100-07. A copy is available at geocities.com/stonerdon/science_speaks.html )

Just to compare, the total number of atoms in the known universe is approximately 10 raised to the 80th power. In short, the odds of these prophecies being fulfilled in one man is vastly greater than the number of atoms in this universe!

In my opinion, this is pretty good evidence that Jesus is who He says He is.

Regards,

SteveLohr

 

[Prodigal_Child]

Hi Steve:

I’m not really sure why you posted the verses you did regarding Jesus. It seemed to open up a whole new topic.

The topic we had been discussing was whether Jews had previously had a notion of God as a loving father, which I think we both agree that they did, and do.

Now you appear to have begun a NEW topic on the nature of Jesus. If you are making an argument that scripture says Jesus is divine, you will get no argument from me, especially the gospel of John. The problem is, I don’t accept the New Testament as scripture.

Please remember that I am not here to challenge your beliefs. I will reply to you. I will relay what Judaism believes, but quite honestly, I hope you remain a steadfast Christian. Think of me as a reporter, not an evangelist!

In a later post you listed a bunch of verses from the Hebrew Scriptures of so-called prophecies that you believe Jesus fulfilled. I won’t go into detail, except to tell you that like the Jews, I believe you have a profound misunderstanding of these verses, especially Isaiah.

Here are the expectations of the Moshiach, and you will notice Jesus did not fulfill any of them:

He will be of the House of David (this is figured through the father) (Ezekiel 37:24).

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel
(Isaiah 11:12).

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27).

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace (Micah 4:3).

He will rule at a time when all the Jewish people will observe G-d’s
commandments (Ezekiel 37:24).

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve
one G-d (Isaiah 66:23).

Here they are ALL TOGETHER:
Ezekiel 37:24-28:

“And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one
shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and
do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my
servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they
and their children, and their children’s children forever; and my servant
David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of
peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will
give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst
of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be
their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am
the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of
them forevermore.”

 

[Prodigal_Child]

Dear Prodigal Child.

If you have in fact ever known Jesus personally

I have known God personally for a very very long time. And for a long time I mistakenly called him Jesus. Baruch Hashem he does not hold that old confusion against me. Nor do I hold yours against you. Be well.

 

[GraceDK]

I have known God personally for a very very long time. And for a long time I mistakenly called him Jesus. Baruch Hashem he does not hold that old confusion against me. Nor do I hold yours against you. Be well.

I am sad to hear that you have left the Messiah who came to fulfill Scripture in the fulness of time. Have you ever heard about the scarlet thread?
I wonder if you have ever been in a really living congregation, one that also witnesses the miracles of body mind and soul that are truly a sign of the presense of the Holy Spirit…?
Since you do not believe Jesus is Messiah, then how do you explain the time prophesy of Daniel? And what/who do you think the Messiah is/will be?

Shalom and peace.

 

[GraceDK]

I have known God personally for a very very long time. And for a long time I mistakenly called him Jesus. Baruch Hashem he does not hold that old confusion against me. Nor do I hold yours against you. Be well.

That means, you never knew Jesus… You didnt believe in the NT…
All I can say is ASK your heavenly Father: Who is Jesus?
He never fails to answer this. He does not want you in confusion.
Please, please:
salvationisfromthejews.com/alljews.html

Grace

 

[Prodigal_Child]

1. Jesus’ use of the term Son of Man.

Actually this phrase Ben-Adam is evidence to the contrary, evidence that Jesus is mortal rather than divine. That is what the phrase son of man MEANS – that one is mortal. Further, it references up against Numbers 23:19
“God is not a man that he can lie, nor a son of man that he can repent”

The phrase “son of man” is most often paired in a double turn of phrase " blah blah man, or blhablahblah son of man blah blah blah,"

In Ezekial, God addresses Ezekial as son of man.

The most interesting use of the phrase is in the book of Daniel. Each of the different pagan nations is seen rising as a different horrible beast of some sort. Suddenly, one “like a son of man” is seen coming out of the clouds. What nation could that possibly be that is different from all the other nations? Well, Israel of course!

1. Implicit Christology
   (i) Jesus prayed to God using the familiar term “Abba” (already discussed above)

Okay that’s two things crossed off the list

(ii) The parable of the wicked tenants (Mark 12:1-9).

I agree that this parable states that he is the Son of God. However, what that means is not clear.

(iii) Jesus identifies himself as the Son in Mark 13:32

Son of what or whom? Son of God? Son of Man? the two are very different.

(iv) Jesus’ claim in Matthew 11:27

Again, Son of ??? There was so much Son of Man stuff that you can’t assume he is claiming to be the Son of God in every instance. Further, IF he is claiming to be the son of God, it doesn’t infer a trinitarian relationship.

(v) Jesus claimed to act with divine authority. See Matt 7:28-29;Matt 5:31-32, Mark 10:2-12;Luke 11:20;Mark 2:6-9;John 5:36). See also John 10:37-38

So did the prophets.

(6) Jesus believed himself able to perform miracles.

Many have done miracles.

(7) Jesus claimed to determine the eternal destiny of people. (Luke 12:8-9).

So have the prophets.

The best you can do, really, is offer some verses where he claims to be the Son of God, and even then, it doesn’t necessarily mean what trinitarian doctrine states.

Realize also, that this ASSUMES that the gospels are valid in the form in which they now exist. I do not necessarily believe that is so. I believe they have been edited. For example, the gospel of Matthew is fairly anti-gentile. The part at the end about go make disciples of all the nations I believe to be tagged on at a later date. I believe the earlier accounts did not deify Jesus. I believe the book of John and later editings did.

 

[Prodigal_Child]

That means, you never knew Jesus… You didnt believe in the NT

Oh but I did believe the New Testament for over 45 years. You are having great difficulty coming to terms with the idea that someone could really and truly be a Christian and just have their faith fall apart. If you want the bare bones of what happened, I’ll give you that, but I’m most certainly not going to go into detail. You want to know why? Because I don’t care to undermine your faith. Your journey is your journey. But I can tell you that I am not unusual at all. The classes that I take at my synagogue are absolutely FULL of people like me who spent their lives loving Jesus, only to find to their bewilderment that Jesus wasn’t God or messiah after all, but the God they loved and served was still there, and was still Lord and Master and Savior, baruch Hashem.