The mob should lay off. The pope is completely innocent [UK]

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guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/apr/15/pope-mob-benedict-misreading-abuse

“Pope Benedict is not responsible for cover-up, collusion, turning a blind eye, institutional idolatry or any of the other accusations that, with greater or lesser vehemence, have been hurled at the Catholic church during recent weeks. On the contrary, he is the one in the Vatican who has done most to rid the church of this scourge. He is the one who has acted most consistently and energetically to improve the church’s handling of these cases.”***

***What’s really scary about some of the things said in this article is the stuff about international law…

we are headed for a one world govt where there will be this international law… which will likely NOT have much of American law in it… meaning democracy, etc…

this journalist seems to have a minority opinion in the world of journalists… A lot of people seem to want to get him (the pope) no matter what :mad: just cuz he’s Catholic…:rolleyes:

i would like more info on the alleged cover up… because it does seem that a lot of priests were allowed to continue in their duties as a priest… when they should have been defrocked… :confused:***:

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Carrying on with priestly duties and being laicised (defrocked) are two separate things.

As the article says :
“However, what prevented the abuse was not the defrocking but the suspension by the bishop. There is no link between the length of the defrocking process and the priest’s opportunity to abuse.”

This is an obvious point which goes to the heart of the Pope’s involvement and which any rational person can understand. But the people going after the Pope are not rational - and they lie through their teeth.
 
we are headed for a one world govt where there will be this international law… which will likely NOT have much of American law in it… meaning democracy, etc…

Please don’t worry about that…countries are so different that it’s not likely to happen.
 
we are headed for a one world govt where there will be this international law… which will likely NOT have much of American law in it… meaning democracy, etc…

Please don’t worry about that…countries are so different that it’s not likely to happen.
I believe the one world govt is already being orchestrated through the world financial markets. We have become too interdependent on one another already.
 
Carrying on with priestly duties and being laicised (defrocked) are two separate things.

As the article says :
“However, what prevented the abuse was not the defrocking but the suspension by the bishop. There is no link between the length of the defrocking process and the priest’s opportunity to abuse.”

This is an obvious point which goes to the heart of the Pope’s involvement and which any rational person can understand. But the people going after the Pope are not rational - and they lie through their teeth.
i don’t u/stand the 1st & 2nd paragraph??:confused:
 
we are headed for a one world govt where there will be this international law… which will likely NOT have much of American law in it… meaning democracy, etc…

Please don’t worry about that…countries are so different that it’s not likely to happen.
got news for you, its already happened…

i know of someone who tried to get his passport renewed… he was from a country in Africa… and they wouldn’t renew it… because he is a “citizen of the world”…

:hypno:
 
The article was good. I read through the comments - Ahhhh!
 
I believe the one world govt is already being orchestrated through the world financial markets. We have become too interdependent on one another already.
you won’t believe but KNOW

if you read the book ***Hope of the Wicked **by Ted Flynn… then there’s the book No Apologies by Barry Goldwater… and others… *

i think both of those books should be required reading in US high schools…
 
i don’t u/stand the 1st & 2nd paragraph??:confused:
The first paragraph is saying that removing a priest from priestly duties is one thing while the laicising (defrocking) of a priest is another. In the cases discussed - when a priest was found to have offended he was no longer allowed to function as a priest - saying mass, teaching children, hearing confession, taking part in Church groups etc etc. This is the important step which protects the public and stops his interaction with the public through Catholic institutions.

The laicising however is something completely different. It is the official recognition of the removal of his priestly oath so that he is no longer considered to be bound by his Holy Orders oath nor recognised as such.

The second paragraph hopefully should now be a little clearer. If the priest is removed from his priestly duties and removed from acting as a priest then he is no longer in a position to offend as a representative of the Church. Laicisation however (the formal recognition of the removal of his priestly vows) may occur 5 minutes or 5 years after this. It is a formality regarding the recognition of the non effect of his vows.

Like marriage, the vow of Holy Orders is supposed to be for life. The Church is slow to grant such laicisations as it does not want to cheapen the Sacrament of Holy Orders - the same as it does not want to cheapen the sacrament of marriage.

But of course in the case of priests who have offended, they are already not allowed to act as priests which means they are removed from offending in Catholic institutions. This of course is the main and important step with regards to public safety, which the author of the article was pointing out.

The reason why people want to deliberately confuse the two is that Cardinal Ratzinger was involved with granting liacisations. People who don’t like the Catholic Church and people who don’t like the current Pope and his stances on a range of issues want to create the perception that Ratzinger not granting liacisations straight away put the public at risk from offending priests. As i said - these people are lying through their teeth.

Regards.
 
The first paragraph is saying that removing a priest from priestly duties is one thing while the laicising (defrocking) of a priest is another. In the cases discussed - when a priest was found to have offended he was no longer allowed to function as a priest - saying mass, teaching children, hearing confession, taking part in Church groups etc etc. This is the important step which protects the public and stops his interaction with the public through Catholic institutions.

The laicising however is something completely different. It is the official recognition of the removal of his priestly oath so that he is no longer considered to be bound by his Holy Orders oath nor recognised as such.

The second paragraph hopefully should now be a little clearer. If the priest is removed from his priestly duties and removed from acting as a priest then he is no longer in a position to offend as a representative of the Church. Laicisation however (the formal recognition of the removal of his priestly vows) may occur 5 minutes or 5 years after this. It is a formality regarding the recognition of the non effect of his vows.

Like marriage, the vow of Holy Orders is supposed to be for life. The Church is slow to grant such laicisations as it does not want to cheapen the Sacrament of Holy Orders - the same as it does not want to cheapen the sacrament of marriage.

But of course in the case of priests who have offended, they are already not allowed to act as priests which means they are removed from offending in Catholic institutions. This of course is the main and important step with regards to public safety, which the author of the article was pointing out.

The reason why people want to deliberately confuse the two is that Cardinal Ratzinger was involved with granting liacisations. People who don’t like the Catholic Church and people who don’t like the current Pope and his stances on a range of issues want to create the perception that Ratzinger not granting liacisations straight away put the public at risk from offending priests. As i said - these people are lying through their teeth.

Regards.
what about Cardinal Law and others who seem to have let offending priests get away with this and moved them to other parishes…
 
International Law has always existed to one degree or another. Whether through treaties or force…
 
International Law has always existed to one degree or another. Whether through treaties or force…
if we become a truly one world system, you can better believe there will be force

thankGod some senators resist the “new world order”
 
what about Cardinal Law and others who seem to have let offending priests get away with this and moved them to other parishes…
This is the nature of the scandal, that some bishops allegedly mishandled and covered up abuse in their respective dioceses.

While I have no doubt that such cover ups and abuses have occurred in places, I also believe that the circumstances are not always fully reported and in many cases likely misrepresented.

Only a small fraction of (<<1%) of all Priest actually caused abuse. This is bad and unacceptable. But in addition to some Bishops failing to suspend or investigate cases of abuse, many of Police departments participated by failing to investigate. Departments of Children and Family services failed to respond to abuse allegations against both others in charge of children, including Priests, Protestant and Jewish clergy, school teachers and principals, youth group leaders, and worst of all, family members and even parents.

This child abuse scandal extends far beyond simply the Church. Granted, the Church has an obvious moral duty to protect children, but many groups are exploiting this to promote their own agendas, such as ordaining woman clergy. They are effectively exploiting the suffering of the victims to humiliate and manipulate the Church.

Should pressure be put on the bishops and hierarchy to protect children - Of Course! Should the church reach out and compensate victims - Of Course! But should irrelevant issues be dragged into the mess and reputations slandered by sloppy and malicious reporting, Absolutely Not. The true scale of child abuse in and out of the Church should be reported, and the focus should be on pursuing compassion and compensation for past victims and prevention against future abuses.
 
This is the nature of the scandal, that some bishops allegedly mishandled and covered up abuse in their respective dioceses.

While I have no doubt that such cover ups and abuses have occurred in places, I also believe that the circumstances are not always fully reported and in many cases likely misrepresented.

Only a small fraction of (<<1%) of all Priest actually caused abuse. This is bad and unacceptable. But in addition to some Bishops failing to suspend or investigate cases of abuse, many of Police departments participated by failing to investigate. Departments of Children and Family services failed to respond to abuse allegations against both others in charge of children, including Priests, Protestant and Jewish clergy, school teachers and principals, youth group leaders, and worst of all, family members and even parents.

This child abuse scandal extends far beyond simply the Church. Granted, the Church has an obvious moral duty to protect children, but many groups are exploiting this to promote their own agendas, such as ordaining woman clergy. They are effectively exploiting the suffering of the victims to humiliate and manipulate the Church.

Should pressure be put on the bishops and hierarchy to protect children - Of Course! Should the church reach out and compensate victims - Of Course! But should irrelevant issues be dragged into the mess and reputations slandered by sloppy and malicious reporting, Absolutely Not. The true scale of child abuse in and out of the Church should be reported, and the focus should be on pursuing compassion and compensation for past victims and prevention against future abuses.
yeah… kinda like letting the fox guard the hen house…

the media… Who can trust them??

something like 85% or maybe even 90% are pro-abortion… a majority are in favor of gay rights and etc…

Still… the reason i someitmes wonder about… whether priests were… not disciplined… etc…as the should have been is because i have seen fro myself how the Church hierarchy does not listen to people & their cocerns… I have seen a LOT of evil in the Church… people (bishops, etc) not giving a rip about certain injustices going on… whether by priests or whomever… so this apathy and downright rudeness to victims (and those who complain of irregularities)… well, this makes me more ready to believe the news media when they say there was a cover up…

i would really like to know wht the best resource is for information on this? …a catholic newspaper or something that has “the whole story” more/less… ? cuz i am confused about the whole thing…
 
What’s really scary about some of the things said in this article is the stuff about international law…
Distracted, I think you have been a member of CAF long enough to know the rules of this forum. When you start a new thread in the News forums, you are required to use the headline of the article you are citing.

You didn’t do that. Instead, you seem to want to use this thread as a springboard to discuss your New World Order theory, a topic which has nothing to do with the article.
 
yeah… kinda like letting the fox guard the hen house…

the media… Who can trust them??

something like 85% or maybe even 90% are pro-abortion… a majority are in favor of gay rights and etc…

Still… the reason i someitmes wonder about… whether priests were… not disciplined… etc…as the should have been is because i have seen fro myself how the Church hierarchy does not listen to people & their cocerns… I have seen a LOT of evil in the Church… people (bishops, etc) not giving a rip about certain injustices going on… whether by priests or whomever… so this apathy and downright rudeness to victims (and those who complain of irregularities)… well, this makes me more ready to believe the news media when they say there was a cover up…

i would really like to know wht the best resource is for information on this? …a catholic newspaper or something that has “the whole story” more/less… ? cuz i am confused about the whole thing…
One thing that seems horrible is the reports of a pornograhic and perverted children’s catechism supposedly approved by the Belgian Church? There is this report out there on LifeSite news and it is truly a horrible development. Wouldn’t the Vatican have known about this children’s catechism and have some responsibility for not censoring it or not condemning it as soon as people brought it to their attention?
 
I don’t think the Vatican would have known about the children’s catechism in the Belgian church. I am sure the Belgian authorities who approved it had their own agenda as far as promoting pedophilia - this is an example of perversion among people in positions of authority in the church. It is almost impossible if not impossible to change such people whether inside or outside the church.
 
I don’t think the Vatican would have known about the children’s catechism in the Belgian church. I am sure the Belgian authorities who approved it had their own agenda as far as promoting pedophilia - this is an example of perversion among people in positions of authority in the church. It is almost impossible if not impossible to change such people whether inside or outside the church.
According to what I read, parents had reported it to the papal legate with no result.
 
A number of points that should be addressed separately.

We must be very careful not to make the same mistake that some journalists are making, that is judging by association. The media has a job to do, to report information. There have always been and will be biased reporters. We have to learn to recognize them and drive around them, like a pothole on the road.

As far that the handling of the abuses there are several points. The Church never told anyone to cover anything. I’ve been in religious life for years. I have never been told to cover anything, except a pot in the kitchen. There is a big difference between privacy and covering up. It seems that the only organization that is not allowed to have secrets, confidentiality rules. protect people’s privacy and so forth is the Catholic Church. The government can do it. Microsoft can do it, so can the military. But not the Church. This attitude is silly.

The individuals who made claims of being abused have the right to privacy. It is inappropriate for the Church to bring the person’s private information to the public. That’s a choice for the person to make. He or she has to decide whom to tell and when to tell. The Church’s rule has been to protect the privacy of the person.

In every civilized society a person who is accused of a crime has the right to privacy. No one has the right to know what you discuss with your attorney. It’s illegal to ask and to pry. The same rule applies inside the Church. When a cleric or religious is accused of any crime, abuse or other, the individual has a right to privacy. The allegations are explored by the competent authority and until proven guilty, the case remains confidential. Let’s put ourselves in another situation. Imagine that you’re the mother of a priest who is accused of absuing a child. After all is said and done, there is no proof of the abuse. But the doubt remains. You, who are innocent in all of this because you’re the mother, not the accused, can’t show your face in public. Now imagine how much worse it gets if it’s true.

There are too many people affected in these cases. We, I mean society, has a duty to avoid turning these cases into soap operas for the world to see. They have to be explored and if guilt can be proven, then consequences have to be applied. But those who are innocent, should not suffer because an investigation gets out of hand and becomes a public circus. Honesty is one thing, indiscretion is another. Sometimes, we don’t seem to know the difference. Not everything that happens has to become public.

The management of these cases is pretty straightforward stuff. The person is suspended. If he’s a secular priest, his bishop can suspend him. If he’s a consecrated religious, his superior can suspend him. This does not go to Rome. Rome is not interested in doing other people’s job. What we have to understand is that a suspension is no guarrantee that a person is not going to abuse. It’s a guarrantee that the person is not going to function as a priest or religious until proven not guilty. The suspended person is not in a prison.

If the District Attorney issues a warrant for an arrest, then it’s his/her job to decide if the person is to be held without bond or not. In some cases, people are allowed to be free while on trial and not in others. But that’s not the Church’s call. The ecclesial authorities must suspend. That’s their call.

Laicization is being made up to be something different than it is. It’s almost being made out to be a panacea. Let’s understand what it means. Laicize a priest that the person’s promise of celibacy is dispensed and his promise of obedience is dispensed. In simple words, he is no longer bound to celibacy, may not wear religious garb, may not exercise ministry, may not live on Church property or collect benefits from the Church, except those that are mandated by law such as retirement, 401K, etc. Laicization means that the person will live AS IF he were a lay man. He’s not really a lay man. Once you are ordained you will never be a lay man. The Church cannot undo what God does. Just as she cannot make a married person single again, she cannot make a cleric a lay man again. Do not confuse laicization with a decree of nullity. That is very different and not what we’re talking about here. Very rarely can you prove that the person’s ordination was invalid.

Again, it does not guarrantee that the person will not abuse again. In fact, a priest or religiious who is laicized and goes to confession, may marry in the Church, receive all of the sacraments, live as an active Catholic and be burried as a Catholic. He has that right and it cannot be taken away from him. It is his baptismal right.

By he is not a lay man, what do we mean? That man will always be a deacon, priest or bishop. If there is a need that another ordained man cannot provide for, this man can provide without any consequences. In other words, he can hear a confession, grant absolution and annoint a sick person in an emergency. The Church provides the faculties necessary for validity. She does not have to provide the power, because he never lost it.

I hope this helps for better understanding.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
what about Cardinal Law and others who seem to have let offending priests get away with this and moved them to other parishes…
Then i would see that as not removing the priest from priestly duties and in general a big mistake, as we have all learned of the past few decades.
 
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