The Modern Liturgical Battle Brewing Among Catholics

  • Thread starter Thread starter JimG
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
USCCB - GIRM Chapter IV - see numbers #124, #146, #154, #157 and #165.

#124. "Once all this has been done, the Priest goes to the chair. When the Entrance Chant is concluded, with everybody standing, the Priest and faithful sign themselves with the Sign of the Cross. The Priest says: In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. The people reply, Amen.

Then, facing the people and extending his hands, the Priest greets the people, using one of the formulas indicated. The Priest himself or some other minister may also very briefly introduce the faithful to the Mass of the day."
  1. Returning to the middle of the altar, and standing facing the people, the Priest extends and then joins his hands, and calls upon the people to pray, saying, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren). The people rise and make the response May the Lord accept the sacrifice, etc. Then the Priest, with hands extended, says the Prayer over the Offerings. At the end the people acclaim, Amen.
  2. Then the Priest, with hands extended, says aloud the prayer Domine Iesu Christe, qui dixisti (Lord Jesus Christ, who said to your Apostles) and when it is concluded, extending and then joining his hands, he announces the greeting of peace, facing the people and saying, The peace of the Lord be with you always. The people reply, And with your spirit. After this, if appropriate, the Priest adds, Let us offer each other the sign of peace. …
  3. When the prayer is concluded, the Priest genuflects, takes a host consecrated at the same Mass, and, holding it slightly raised above the paten or above the chalice, facing the people, says, Ecce Agnus Dei (Behold the Lamb of God) and together with the people he adds, Lord, I am not worthy.
  4. Then, standing at the chair or at the altar, and facing the people with hands joined, the Priest says, Let us pray; then, with hands extended, he recites the Prayer after Communion. A brief period of silence may precede the prayer, unless this has been already observed immediately after Communion. At the end of the prayer the people acclaim, Amen.
The priest wouldn’t have been instructed to face the people at these points in the Mass if he were already doing so - it is assumed in other parts of the Mass he is facing East or Liturgical East and therefore not facing the people, which is why at these points he is instructed to face the people.
 
DeniseNY said:
That reads strangely to me. While yes there are Catholics in Greece, most often “Greek Catholics” are Byzantine Catholics, and we are not ethnically Greek.
Click to expand...
“Greek Catholic” usually equates to Byzantine or Eastern, the same way that “Roman Catholic” usually equates to Latin or Western. I am neither Roman nor Italian, yet I refer to myself as a Roman Catholic.

To use “Greek Catholic” to refer to a Catholic (whether Eastern or Western) who is of Greek nationality is confusing, I will grant, but unless you were to say “Catholic from Greece”, or possibly “Hellenic Catholic”, I wouldn’t know how to get around that. It’s a matter of context.
Margaret_Ann said:
There is a very small (6000 faithful total) Greek Catholic exarchate in Greece and Turkey.
Click to expand...
They do not appear to have a website, but here is the Wikipedia article:

en.wikipedia.org

Greek Byzantine Catholic Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...
 
So the priest isn’t facing the King of Kings after the Consecration? Of course he is.
 
Of course there have been changes in the sacrifice of the mass. If my memory is correct the original mass was in the vernacular. Don’t remember it was Hebrew? It was Aramaic?
 
Pitcairn17 said:
the priest isn’t facing the King of Kings after the Consecration? Of course he is.
Click to expand...
Technically, no he is not. The priest is acting in persona Christi so he is the presence of the King of Kings, not facing it. This is the reason for moving the tabernacle, so that people do not get confused and start treating the physical presence as more important than the liturgical action of Christ.

In general, that is what is wrong with many of the positions here. Priority is given to adoration of the physical presence over participating in the liturgical action. Kneel in adoration instead of standing with the Resurrected. Face the tabernacle instead of being at the altar. Do not be distracted from adoration by offering peace to one another.

It is just another sign of the poor catechesis people received in the ‘40s and ‘50s.
 
phil19034 said:
40.png
PetraG:
This seems an odd objection to me. How does the priest distribute Holy Communion, if not with his back to the tabernacle? He is acting in persona Christi.
Click to expand...
When distributing Holy Communion, the priest is not talking directly to God. However, when praying the Liturgy of the Eucharist (the vast majority of the time), the priest is talking directly to God.

During the parts of the Mass, when the priest is talking to the people, the rubrics specifically tells the priest to face the people. Why, because it is important to face the person(s) you are directly speaking to.

Again, my argument is ironically the same argument used by the priests/bishops who moved the tabernacle away from the main altar.

That’s what I mean. It is also ok for a minister of the royal court to turn his back to the king when speaking directly to the people. But it would never be ok for the same minister to talk directly to the king without facing the king. So if this is how we treat earthly kings, why not do the same for The King of Kings?
Click to expand...
Technically the Priest is not ‘talking to God’ at the Eucharistic Prayer. God is everywhere. He is facing East since Christ is imagined to come again from the direction of the new dawn. The strongest evidence for the primacy of the East is the fact that St Peters basilica at the Vatican has the altar facing the people and the Priest then is facing to the East. That was a result of impossible logistics in building the basilica in the traditional direction 500 years ago.
 
Emeraldlady said:
Technically the Priest is not ‘talking to God’
Click to expand...
I really don’t like chiming in for these debates other than to reiterate that all division is of Satan, but I do want to point out that the priest is addressing God, yes, and directly, except for a few times when he addresses the congregation. Other than that, it’s a great post.
 
Last edited:
Scott84 said:
The only way to celebrate Mass is ad orientem. The priest faces God for the majority of Mass, as does the congregation.

If you have the priest facing the people for the entirety of the Mass it changes the whole dynamic. Who is the priest addressing? Us? Is Mass then offered up for the people for OUR benefit? With the priest having his back turned to Christ for Mass, it begs then the question “who are you making God here?” Us? No! Mass is a sacrifice offered up to God. It is the bloodless recreation of the sacrifice on Calvary.

Ad orientem reinforces the Real Presence. To perform the liturgy where the priest has his back turned to Christ makes the liturgy more man-centered. Mass facing the people is a Protestant innovation, you don’t see Protestants in their churches doing their services with the priest with his back to the people. It becomes less about Christ and more about the minister.

Priest, face east!
Click to expand...
I was thinking about this at last weekend’s Mass when yet again, our family kneeled until the Eucharist was returned to the tabernacle while everyone else waited for the priest to sit. I’m not worshiping the priest. I’m worshiping Christ and so is he.
 
gracepoole said:
kneeled until the Eucharist was returned to the tabernacle
Click to expand...
which is not demanded under any norm or rule that I know of, and it is certainly most reverent and even full of merit, provided you are not made proud and arrogant as a result of it. Otherwise, sitting and meditating on how unworthy we are of receiving the Holy Eucharist would likely be more profitable to your soul.
 
Last edited:
lil_user said:
40.png
gracepoole:
kneeled until the Eucharist was returned to the tabernacle
Click to expand...
which is not demanded under any norm or rule that I know of, and it is certainly most reverent and even full of merit, provided you are not made proud and arrogant as a result of it. Otherwise, sitting and meditating on how unworthy we are of receiving the Holy Eucharist would likely be more profitable to your soul.
Click to expand...
Eh, I didn’t comment on what I’m praying about while waiting for the Eucharist to be returned to the tabernacle. But thanks anyway for using terms like “proud” and “arrogant” while completely missing the point of my post.
 
Didn’t mean to call you either of those things.

I have found in my own personal spiritual life that oftentimes the observance of externals has done me more harm than good.

If I misread the point of your post, it’s because I was distracted by the contrast of how you did things versus how the rest of them did things. That kind of reasoning scares me because I hear it often in my interior voice.

And yes, oftentimes we are right and others are wrong, and we do the right things while others don’t. Christ said: be perfect. But often in the practice of perfection we try to stand above others, which is the opposite of what perfection is.

What I meant to say was, do the right thing for the right reason. Don’t be me 😊
 
Last edited:
Following the reforms of the second Vatican Council, the new rite of Mass became compulsory for all public Masses. The previous rite could still be used for private Masses. Some parts of the Church, especially in the USA refused to obey the Church and were in a state of sinful schism. Pope Benedict attempted to heal the rift by redefining the two rites as OF and EF and allowing either for public Masses. Let us pray for those not in full communion with the Church.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top