The Modern Liturgical Battle Brewing Among Catholics

[Pitcairn17]

Pitcairn17:

the priest isn’t facing the King of Kings after the Consecration? Of course he is.

Technically, no he is not. The priest is acting in persona Christi so he is the presence of the King of Kings, not facing it. This is the reason for moving the tabernacle, so that people do not get confused and start treating the physical presence as more important than the liturgical action of Christ.

In general, that is what is wrong with many of the positions here. Priority is given to adoration of the physical presence over participating in the liturgical action. Kneel in adoration instead of standing with the Resurrected. Face the tabernacle instead of being at the altar. Do not be distracted from adoration by offering peace to one another.

It is just another sign of the poor catechesis people received in the ‘40s and ‘50s.

You seem to be saying that the physical presence of the priest is more important than, and his actions more important than, the litttal presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Not buying that for a minute.

 

[CilladeRoma]

Yes, that is exactly what is being said.
The liturgical action is what the focus should be during Mass. Christ is literally present in the Word and in the assembly also and that presence deserves just as much attention.

And what about all those Masses that take place not in a Church. Are you saying that God is not at the Mass at the healthcare facility I work in because we have no Tabernacle?

 

[tafan2]

The priest is acting in the person of Christ by offering the sacrifice if the mass, he is not the sacrifice, as Christ was. The Eucharist is.

 

[BartholomewB]

Also did you know that Mass at St Peters b basilica in Rome has never been celebrated towards the apse. The altar is built to face the people so that at least the Priest could face the East.

Are you saying that, historically, that is the reason why Pope Julius II and his architects placed the altar in that position? Was it Julius’ purpose that he should celebrate Mass facing the geographical east, which in St. Peter’s means versus populum?

The guide books show that Julius’ altar stands on the exact spot occupied by the altar in Constantine’s much smaller basilica, where the apse was very much closer to it. Is it known on which side of the altar the priest stood to celebrate Mass in Constantine’s basilica?

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[BartholomewB]

Hebrew is not a vernacular.

In some places it is.
http://www.catholic.co.il/index.php?lang=en

 

[OraLabora]

Catholics raised and taught during those decades are catechesis geniuses compared to those raised and taught after VII.

Well, sort of. I was brought up on the French-Canadian version of the Baltimore Catechism in the 1960s. It was rote learning at its best. I was good at memorizing and I could always recite my lines by heart when the teacher asked one of the questions in the Catechism.

But I had no idea what much of it meant. We weren’t taught that. It made us obedient little soldiers at Mass, but never gave any depth to my faith, further complicated by my scientific curiosity that wanted explanations, not lines to memorize.

I went on to a career in the hard sciences and dropped my faith for 22 years. Only when I actually studied the faith did it start to make sense, and I returned.

 

[gracepoole]

gracepoole:

Catholics raised and taught during those decades are catechesis geniuses compared to those raised and taught after VII.

Well, sort of. I was brought up on the French-Canadian version of the Baltimore Catechism in the 1960s. It was rote learning at its best. I was good at memorizing and I could always recite my lines by heart when the teacher asked one of the questions in the Catechism.

But I had no idea what much of it meant. We weren’t taught that. It made us obedient little soldiers at Mass, but never gave any depth to my faith, further complicated by my scientific curiosity that wanted explanations, not lines to memorize.

I went on to a career in the hard sciences and dropped my faith for 22 years. Only when I actually studied the faith did it start to make sense, and I returned.

Trust me, even with rote memorization alone, you were light years ahead of those of us forced to make felt banners and sing non-Catholic songs in the name of catechism.

 

[CilladeRoma]

This is exactly what I hear from people in my area also. They had rote knowlege, but no idea how to apply it to everyday life. Go to Mass on Sundays & HDO, Fast on Friday, fulfill your “Easter duty”, and you’re good.
Most people I know over 60, who are still active Catholics, have learned more on their own as adults than they ever did as children/young adults, even if they went to Catholic school for 12 years.

 

[gracepoole]

This is exactly what I hear from people in my area also. They had rote knowlege, but no idea how to apply it to everyday life. Go to Mass on Sundays & HDO, Fast on Friday, fulfill your “Easter duty”, and you’re good.
Most people I know over 60, who are still active Catholics, have learned more on their own as adults than they ever did as children/young adults, even if they went to Catholic school for 12 years.

I was raised post-VII and had zero clue that I was supposed to fast on Fridays outside of Lent or take some other form of penance or go to confession at least once a year. If it was bad before VII, it was abysmal after.

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!

 

[Dovekin]

You seem to be saying that the physical presence of the priest is more important than, and his actions more important than, the litttal presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Not buying that for a minute.

Not the physical presence of the priest, but the liturgical action in which the action of Christ is present in the actions of the priest. Person, and in particular in persona, refers to the presence of of someone, the actual presence of the actions of Christ as opposed to the physical or real presence.

These two presences should never be set against one another, as if one is greater than the other. But there is a logical priority to the Eucharistic sacrifice on which the sacramental presence is based. Without the sacrifice the sacrament would not exist. The tabernacle gives way to the actions on which it depends.

1409 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, that is, of the work of salvation accomplished by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, a work made present by the liturgical action.

1410 It is Christ himself, the eternal high priest of the New Covenant who, acting through the ministry of the priests, offers the Eucharistic sacrifice. and it is the same Christ, really present under the species of bread and wine, who is the offering of the Eucharistic sacrifice.
CCC

 

[Peeps]

Thank you.

 

[Peeps]

This is exactly what I hear from people in my area also. They had rote knowlege, but no idea how to apply it to everyday life. Go to Mass on Sundays & HDO, Fast on Friday, fulfill your “Easter duty”, and you’re good.
Most people I know over 60, who are still active Catholics, have learned more on their own as adults than they ever did as children/young adults, even if they went to Catholic school for 12 years.

As I have said before, I was Evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of my life.

Several of you (OraLabora, CilladeRoma, etc.) have pointed out that Catholics are woefully ignorant of their faith.

That made (and still makes) them EASY PICKINS’ for Evangelical Protestants who have generally read the entire Bible through by the time they are in 8th grade and have studied the New Testament verse by verse and chapter by chapter by the time they graduate from high school.

Many Evangelical Protestants also read and study the Old Testament, other than the Major and Minor Prophets. The Deutero-Canonicals have recently become a subject for study in some Evangelical Protestant circles, too.

But more importantly, Evangelical Protestants have learned basic doctrines that Catholics agree with, e.g, the Sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for sinners, His love for us that calls us to “come home” to Him, the Holy Spirit and His ministries, the process of sanctification and becoming “holy,” confessing of sins and obtaining forgiveness, etc.

They can sit and talk about these doctrines with ease, and also flip all around the Bible (usually marked up and underlined and highlighted, and lots of notes written in the margins!) and show Catholics what God has said in His Word.

Add to that the rich and wonderful fellowship and activities available for children, youth, young people, couples, and singles of all ages --and it’s no wonder that Catholics who know very little about their Church and their faith, and lots about scandals, are easily converted from Catholicism to Evangelical Protestantism.

In the Evangelical Protestant churches that I was involved with for 47 years, around 25% of the members were former Catholics. In the early 60s, before Vatican II, the number was the same–lots of Catholics “abandoned ship,” so to speak, and came to not only the Evangelical Protestant churches, but also to the Mainline Protestant churches who were still, at that time, teaching traditional Christian doctrines and not sanctioning sinful choices.

IMO, what changed that dynamic throughout the 1970s and continues until now is the proliferation of abortion on demand, which the Catholic Church recognized and denounced from the beginning. Evangelical Protestants eventually realized the evil of abortion, and started working alongside Catholics (Post-Vatican II) to stop the evil, and in so doing, began to learn more about the Catholic Church. I believe that there is a substantial percentage of former Evangelical Protestants in many Catholic churches (like Peeps and Mr. Peeps!).

But there are still plenty of Catholics who are leaving their Church.

 

[Fuerza]

I would have done everything the same as you, except that I would have required the Agnus Dei, Sanctus/Benedictus and Pater Noster to be chanted in Latin on Sundays and Holy Days, by both the priest and congregation. A Greek Kyrie would be nice also. Even the most linguistically challenged could learn these over a short time (especially the Kyrie, which requires one to learn a whopping three words), and the sense of unity produced by having these prayers exactly the same anywhere in the world would be a positive achievement.

 

[JulianN]

or go to confession at least once a year.

The requirement is to confess grave sins at least once a year. If someone is conscious of having committed only venial sins, that is not a requirement. While it is recommended to confess venial sins and it is meritorious to do so, it is not mandated.

 

[gracepoole]

Correct.

(+10)

 

[phil19034]

Technically the Priest is not ‘talking to God’ at the Eucharistic Prayer. God is everywhere. He is facing East since Christ is imagined to come again from the direction of the new dawn. The strongest evidence for the primacy of the East is the fact that St Peters basilica at the Vatican has the altar facing the people and the Priest then is facing to the East. That was a result of impossible logistics in building the basilica in the traditional direction 500 years ago.

Yes, I know about the facing East. However, that is NOT the only symbolism. The other fact is the priest is physically facing God in the tabernacle.

Now, if the tabernacle is empty, then the priest is only facing east (or liturgical east if the church building is not geographically aligned so the priest is facing east).

BUT again - according to an article I read from the 1940s, when they started to experiment with “walk around” altars, the tabernacle being behind the altar was a concern for priests and bishops. They actually believed that it would confuse people regarding the Real Presence if the priest had his back to God the whole mass. The “solution” was to move the tabernacle to another part of the church so the priest would not have his back to the tabernacle.

So if that was the main reason for the tabernacles being moved in the first place, wouldn’t it make sense to use Ad Orientem if we are putting the tabernacles back in the middle of the Sanctuary?

After all, back in the 1940s, one of the main reasons why they wanted the priest to face the people was so the people could hear the prayers (not so they could see his face). But after Vatican II started, they allowed microphones. So the original reason to turn the priest around is practually null & void in most places.

After the latest Pew Poll showed that only 1/3 of Catholics believe in the Real Presence I think we have a serious problem here and WE MUST MAKE A CHANGE!

– 37% of Catholics who attend Mass every week (if not more) do NOT believe in the Real Presence. That’s horrible in itself.
– BUT THE WORST FIGURE is only 26% of Catholics under the age of 40 believe in the Real Presence. These are the Catholics who have been alive the entire time the priest was facing the people.
– And even the Baby Boomer numbers are terrible (after all most of them were young when this happened)

We need a change. And I think Ad Orientem would help significantly.

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One-third of U.S. Catholics believe in transubstantiation | Pew Research Center

If I ever find the article again, I will post it

 

[phil19034]

But more importantly, Evangelical Protestants have learned basic doctrines that Catholics agree with, e.g, the Sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for sinners, His love for us that calls us to “come home” to Him, the Holy Spirit and His ministries, the process of sanctification and becoming “holy,” confessing of sins and obtaining forgiveness, etc.

Not to mention if 75% of Catholics who attend Mass only once a month don’t believe in the Real Presence, then the Real Presence isn’t going to be something keeping them Catholic.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I would have done everything the same as you, except that I would have required the Agnus Dei, Sanctus/Benedictus and Pater Noster to be chanted in Latin on Sundays and Holy Days, by both the priest and congregation. A Greek Kyrie would be nice also. Even the most linguistically challenged could learn these over a short time (especially the Kyrie, which requires one to learn a whopping three words), and the sense of unity produced by having these prayers exactly the same anywhere in the world would be a positive achievement.

I didn’t think of the Kyrie. The Greek Kyrie is common even in otherwise vernacularized Novus Ordo Masses.

For a vernacular Mass, I would argue against a Latin Pater Noster. I don’t want to cause any flame wars here, but one of the ideas behind having Mass in the vernacular in the first place, was to make the Mass more acceptable to Protestants. I am not saying that is a bad thing, far from it. All Christians hold the Pater Noster/Lord’s Prayer in reverence. Having the most revered prayer in Christendom in Latin, within an otherwise vernacular liturgy, is not exactly ecumenical. And even Catholics take great solace in reciting the Pater Noster in their everyday language, the verbiage of which we share with non-Catholic Christians.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Right you are. Up until 1964, people could follow and understand the Latin Mass the way they had done for centuries, only it was much easier to get information on the Mass throughout the last century or so.
But then Vatican II happened. Suddenly people needed Mass in the vernacular. Something must have happened to the culture, that up until 1963 they could follow the language of the Church, then in 1964, they became unable to do so. Go figure. They became like the unchurched Chinese people of the 1600s, who had never had any exposure to Christian culture before. Makes perfect sense!