The moment when you realise your mother is not going to heaven!

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yorkshiregirl

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I think my relationship with my mother has been irrevocably damaged by a conversation I had with her last week, and that I have been dwelling on ever since. She and I haven’t really been close - I was always more of a daddy’s girl - but since my father’s death in October I have been the one left to look after her and take her around (she never learned to drive) and visit her many times a week.

This is all fine, and what a good daughter should do but 2 things make it sooooo difficult. One is her politics - I don’t define myself as with any party (and being in the UK there are many to chose from) because I try to let my faith and Church teachings guide my opinions. My mother has always been a socialist and that was always ok as I was left leaning myself but as she has got older I went more to the centre and now she is a veritbable marxist!I

And maybe that goes to the second thing - she hates the church, religion, God everything. She was brought up a Catholic but really badly catechised. We have argued before over doctrine and she says ‘it was never like that when I was a girl’ and I would love to say ‘well maybe you remember wrong’ or ‘well you were not taught correctly’ but that just leads to more division between us because she is never wrong and just says ‘no the church has changed’ - which of course it hasn’t!

Anyway this is all how it has been for a while and I have to try to remember this when I speak to her so that I don’t start an argument. But the problem is really I guess that she hasn’t got over my dad’s death. She is obviously depressed but won’t ask the doctor for help. The only bereavement councilor I know of is one through the church - needless to say that is going to happen! And she is so negative - I always come away from seeing her really depressed. I have tried to say ‘Dad is in heaven and watching us and doesn’t want you to be sad’ (dad was a Christian even though she stopped him from going to church - he was a very quiet man who was quite overpowered by her) and saying all the things to make her feel better but last week she just said there is no God and dad was just dead and she didn’t want to keep living either. I guess it may just have been her depression talking but it was all of a sudden like looking at a stranger. I just knew at that point that nothing I could say would bring her to the Church and to God and that made me really sad.

I’m sorry I’m probably rambling here - I guess if I’m not just ranting but looking for advice I would ask any ideas now what I should talk to her about. Religion (the mainstay of my life) and politics (all she thinks about) are obviously no-nos. Can’t even really do current affairs at the moment as it’s all about gay marriage here which she really thinks is the best thing ever (and as I have recently found out I have two gay nephews can’t wait till one of them wants to ‘get married’ for all that family fun!).

Anyway off to see her now - really starting to hate Tuesdays…😦
 
yorkshiregirl said:
But the problem is really I guess that she hasn’t got over my dad’s death.
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Remember this. And pray for her.

It hasn’t yet been a year. My mother has been gone 2 years and I still mourn for her. Dad has been gone 1 1/2 years. Yes, I still mourn for him. Give her time.
 
DaddyGirl said:
So…what about your title, tho? Are you really thinking or believing your mother is not going to heaven?
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Since Hell is the direct result of rejecting God, her own words and actions would seem to suggest as much. Luckily for us, God’s mercy far outweighs anything we could do to him, so there is still hope.

To the OP, just continue to pray for her, that God will show her mercy. Perhaps her ignorance of the Church is not entirely her own fault, which would diminish her culpability; her depression could also be playing a role in it what she’s saying. However, keep in mind that each of us is primarily responsible for our own salvation so, while the thought of her not making it is very sad, it shouldn’t pull your focus away from your own position.

I pray that your mother opens her heart to God. God bless.
 
I think it is pretty presumptuous of anyone to think they know who is going to heaven and who isn’t. 😊

It sounds to me like you need to stop trying to evangelize your mom and just be a daughter to her. Since you know that politics and religion are subjects you don’t agree on, why not find another topic of conversation?

Think of what you would talk to other people about–people that you don’t know well enough to talk religion or politics with. Does she have any hobbies? If not, help her find one and encourage it. Do you share a love of music or reading? Take her out somewhere and it will give you a change of scenery. Go to a park or for a drive or out to eat.

If you only see her once a week, I would think you could find something to get through the day to talk about.

There are plenty of depression/bereavement counselors out there. Find one that is not religious and she may go.

And always, keep her in your prayers. 🙂
 
And sometimes depression will cause a person not to think straight. She is off in her own little world right now. It will take her a while to get thru her grief. So, you should try to help her develop a hobby or take up a new interest. Teach her to drive! lol. Something. Talk to her about other subjects. Like cooking.
 
There is no way for you to know if your mom is not going to Heaven. Regardless of what she says now (which may just be very misguided and not purposefully bad), she could have a conversion of heart before she dies, or there may be many other factors you don’t know about but God does (including related to the depression you think she may have). Nevertheless, since she is saying things of concern, the number 1 thing for you to do is pray for her and for the Holy Spirit to inspire her, and to inspire you, if there is anything you can say or do. Other than that, be loving towards her (and maybe see if you can help her seek help with bereavement/potential depression?). Live with true Christian spirit. You will be surprised at how much influence someone living out their Faith with joy can have on others.
I wish you both well!
 
Becca3 said:
And sometimes depression will cause a person not to think straight. She is off in her own little world right now. It will take her a while to get thru her grief. So, you should try to help her develop a hobby or take up a new interest. Teach her to drive! lol. Something. Talk to her about other subjects. Like cooking.
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Be there for her. Ignore her feelings toward The Church. God do love her, you know that, don’t you? She is your mother, and that is what is important.
 
Since she was brought up Catholic it could be that as the end of her life comes near she will have a change of heart, regain faith and repent. Fear of death does that to people. I know that this is not ideal, and that we should love God and so desire to lead holy lives rather than repent out of fear, but such repentance is better than nothing and can lead her to salvation. Pray for her mother, be a good example of what it means to be Catholic and continue doing what you are doing.
 
When the would-be-saint Monica went to her bishop and asked him what she should say to her son Augustine about his immoral lifestyle, he said “Perhaps you should stop talking to Augustine about God, and start talking to God about Augustine”. The rest is Church history 🙂

Pray for her.
 
Hi Yorkshiregirl,

I also have elderly parents. I understand your frustration. Age is a great equalizer. I am praying for you and your mother. Before you go in, say a prayer that Jesus go in with you. Also a St. Michael prayer for protection against any negativity that would come between you and her. I think that your mother really needs you now and can’t say it. She is hurting and it overflows on anyone around her. Just love her and listen to her. You don’t have to agree with her. Then change the subject. Bring up good memories from the past and let her tell you about them, even though you have heard it yesterday and the day before. Happiness dispels darkness.

And another thought, why not plan every once in a while a “diversionary” event to get her mind off of herself like a new experience. (Lunch, check in the paper for free things to go to like concerts, lectures, movies, handiwork projects, maybe invite one of her friends, see if she can join a group where she meets new people, anything that interests her other than politics or religion) If you share a new experience then you can talk about that later. And finally when you aren’t with her, pray for her conversion. 😃

Praying for you and your mother.
:hug1:
 
You might introduce her to the writings of Dorothy Day, who founded the Catholic Workers Party. It might help to lessen her feeling of conflict a more liberal political proponent of the Church (though one who was also quite Orthodox).
 
Pray for compassion. That is what your mother needs. Simple compassion. She is lost. Just pray for her. Try to see Jesus in her, in spite of her outsides. She is wounded on the inside. God hears your prayers. “Lord, help her, and change me.”
 
My father and little sister have both died. We were raised catholic, but as in most families many wandered away from the faith. My sister wandered away from the faith and got involved in drugs, etc,. I pray the rosary, and the chaplet of divine mercy, for my dad and sister almost every day. Prayer is never wasted. Padre Pio as an old man said he still prays for a happy death for his grandfather who was then dead many years. Never give up hope!👍
 
yorkshiregirl - Speaking as a Yorkshire Guy, remember the saying, ‘where there’s life there’s hope’. This includes our relatives and ourselves. Even IF your mum does appear to be headed for perdition, YOU can through your own prayers and good works ask the Divine Mercy to allow/offer her a change of heart - even at her last breath, that she may have a ‘Damasus Moment’ of contrition and conciliation/reconciliation. God is wonderously generous to, and moved by, His ‘Prayer Warriors’. Humbly ask Jesus and Our Blessed Lady to look into the face of The Father and ask on your behalf that your mother will find Heaven. That work of charity in itself will stand YOU in spiritual good stead when your own turn comes. 👍
 
Sorry to hear that you are having a difficult time with your mother. I also have a parent who gets on my very last nerve. But from my point of view, it’s a very long leap from “she’s grieving her husband’s death, she’s depressed, and I don’t agree with her politics,” to “she’s not going to heaven.” You cannot possibly know that.
 
DaddyGirl said:
So…what about your title, tho? Are you really thinking or believing your mother is not going to heaven?
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Good question. No human being - except by a direct special revelation - can know whether he or anyone will go to heaven or not. We are especially called by Christ to not be judges of each other’s salvation, lest we be judged in the same way. It is our duty to pray for other’s salvation, hope for their salvation, and offer prayers and penance on their behalf in order to merit for them forgiveness and special graces of conversion and final perseverance. As for ourselves, we ought to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It is far more possible that everyone else will be in heaven and we will not. This should be our first thought: everyone, even those who in our eyes seem to be great sinners, are holier than you and me. We ought to be, as st. Francis once said, little brothers (and little sisters).

Do your best to reflect Christ and Our Lady to your loved ones, to lead them towards the Church, and pray, pray a lot and do penance on their behalf. But leave everything else in God’s hands, for He is the Mighty to Save who did not come to seek the righteous but sinners to repentance, who did not come to condemn but to save, who will not arise as the Just Judge before coming as the Merciful Savior.
 
I’m sorry about your situation, both your dad and your mom.

Be aware that after the Catechism outlines the immoral nature and gravity of suicide, the last thing in the section is this: “We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. the Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.”

We should not despair of the eternal salvation of anyone. That judgment is not our work, and for that we ought to praise Heaven. We are also given the consolation of saints who, like St. Paul, zealously persecuted the Church until their moment of conversion. The husband of Servant of God Elisabeth Leseur was also a fallen-away Catholic. He became editor of an anti-clerical, atheistic newspaper in Paris, and tormented St. Elisabeth in his advocacy for atheism. In response her faith deepened and she dedicated herself as a victim for his conversion. He had not converted even as she died.

As Archbishop Fulton sheen tells the story, this is what happened next:
"In 1905, she was taken ill and tossed on a bed of constant pain until August 1914. When she was dying, she said to her husband, “Felix, when I am dead, you will become a Catholic and a Dominican priest.”

“Elizabeth, you know my sentiments. I’ve sworn hatred of God, I shall live in the hatred and I shall die in it.”

She repeated her words and passed away. She died in her husband’s arms at the early age of 47.

Rummaging through her papers, Felix found her will. She wrote:
In 1905, I asked almighty God to send me sufficient sufferings to purchase your soul. On the day that I die, the price will have been paid. Greater love than this no woman has than she who lay down her life for her husband.

Dr. Leseur, the atheist, dismissed her will as the fancies of a pious woman. He decided to write a book against Lourdes. He went down to Lourdes to write against Our Lady.

However, as he looked up into the face of the statue of Mary, he received the great gift of faith. So total, so complete was it, that he never had to go through the process of juxtaposition and say, “how will I answer this or that difficulty?”

He saw it all. At once."

It is my belief that one of the reasons that God grants such total and immediate conversions of such hardened souls is to give us evidence that the conversion of a sinner can take place in the space of a heartbeat. We never have to despair of anyone, then, even one who has made it his life’s work to disparage God and the Church. God gives us this examples in order to shore up our weak faith and hope.

As for your mother, I think she is in grief. Help her in her grief, and give her as much of the sweetness of life that you can. Pray for her, too, but also be a light for her, so she can see that there is something offered to her as a consolation in this valley of tears. I think she could use that.
 
Irishmom2 said:
I think it is pretty presumptuous of anyone to think they know who is going to heaven and who isn’t. 😊

It sounds to me like you need to stop trying to evangelize your mom and just be a daughter to her. Since you know that politics and religion are subjects you don’t agree on, why not find another topic of conversation?

Think of what you would talk to other people about–people that you don’t know well enough to talk religion or politics with. Does she have any hobbies? If not, help her find one and encourage it. Do you share a love of music or reading? Take her out somewhere and it will give you a change of scenery. Go to a park or for a drive or out to eat.

If you only see her once a week, I would think you could find something to get through the day to talk about.

There are plenty of depression/bereavement counselors out there. Find one that is not religious and she may go.

And always, keep her in your prayers. 🙂
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This.
 
I would recommend you address her depression first. If she is clinically depressed, there are physical changes in her brain which must be overcome as she literally can not process positive thoughts about anything. Depressed folks can do some wild things, and make some outlandish statements to try and provoke feelings in themselves.

psycheducation.org/mechanism/12Conclusion.htm

Above link is a discussion of the affect of depression on the brain. Chapters 7-11 show how depressives stop making new neurons and can actually have the portion of the brain associated with positive thought processes shrink.

Here’s a website on depression started by an author, Anne Sheffield, who was a depressive and raised by a depressive mother:

depressionfallout.org/

I highly recommend her books- ‘How to Survive When They’re Depressed’ and ‘Depression Fallout’.

You’ll be in my prayers.
 
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