The morality of spouse searching

[Tiborshok]

Years ago before I was married, I was a relentless “spouse searcher”. I thought about nearly every girl I met, and certainly every one I dated. “Would she be a good wife”? If it seemed to me the answer was “no”, or even just “not for me, long-term”, then I broke it off immediately.

On the other hand, I’ll have to admit my wife and I didn’t like each other at first. I won’t say we hated each other, but it came close. I was chasing girls at a party and she started making fun of me for delivering what she thought were vain and bogus “lines”. So I started throwing verbal darts at her. She was getting the better of me, and certainly cramping my style, so I took her aside and asked for a truce. She agreed to it on the condition that I would stop being such a vain and (to her) phony-sounding guy in my pursuit of the other girls there. I said I would do that. We then mutually agreed to be each other’s “confidant”; that is, friend to whom one could tell anything honestly. It wasn’t “romantic” at first. Just a very different sort of a friendship. But it grew pretty quickly.

Long story short, we have been married now for decades.

So I guess one would have to say that she would have failed my subjective “spouse tests” at first, because she was even hostile, and that I didn’t “search her out” because I actually tried to avoid her critical tongue. But then, if I hadn’t gone to the party to meet girls, I would never have met my wife either. So, did God “drop her down the chimney”? Maybe, but at least I had placed myself under the chimney at the time.

Another irony was that I was a Democrat and it was a Republican victory party. I went to it because I knew Republicans (then, anyway) had better refreshments at their parties, and back then the Democrat girls my age tended to a sort of spare, almost mannish look, whereas Republican girls usually looked more feminine and oh-so-sharp.

I had better shut my mouth now.

wow

that is a perfect love story for me

 

[kelvinf]

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. I go to social events with the hope of meeting other people with whom I might become friends.

If “with the hope of meeting…” means in the back of your mind, then it’s not what I am referring to as friend searching (just like job searching – solely with the intention of finding a job/friend)

But you never answered my question. Is it immoral for a young woman who believes herself called to religous life to actively search for a religious order to join?

. It’s not immoral. She has a call and is doing what she is supposed to be doing. If by asking this question you are trying to insinuate that it is equal to spouse hunting, then I don’t agree with you. Let me just take religious life to be a career. So to conclude you are simply trying to say that you support those who think that spouse hunting is the same as job hunting.

 

[dramaqueen]

What is amoral about searching for a spouse? then again what about arranged marriages? There is a whole world out there that practically forbids searching for a spouse in favor of mother or fathers finding their daughters or sons suitable match. i don’t think there is a right answer for this topic. My humble opinion is that it is a matter of free will and culture.

 

[kelvinf]

Sorry but God’s not some genie who grants all your wishes if you just ask Him. I might as well live the rest of my life praying while sitting in a couch if that’s how it worked.

Our earthly fathers do not grant us all our wishes neither does God grant us all our wishes.
However, God knows what we need and grants us what he thinks we need

Mat 6: 8,32

…Your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
All these things the pagans seek. Your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.

Nobody has suggested that one should just sit and wait for manna to fall down from heaven (although manna does fall down from heaven). We ought to be doing what we are supposed to be doing (studying, working etc). The question is whether spouse searching is on of those things. I don’t think so.

 

[kelvinf]

What is amoral about searching for a spouse? then again what about arranged marriages? There is a whole world out there that practically forbids searching for a spouse in favor of mother or fathers finding their daughters or sons suitable match. i don’t think there is a right answer for this topic. My humble opinion is that it is a matter of free will and culture.

nice post

 

[kelvinf]

This arguement falls apart on several levels.

How do you reconcile this belief with free will? And the infamous question - why does God allow bad things happen to good people?

Well, I am not in a position to answer that question. Theologians with good knowledge of the bible should be able to answer that question. I can only refer you to this:

Psalm 46:

For the leader. A song of the Korahites. According to alamoth.
God is our refuge and our strength, an ever-present help in distress.Thus we do not fear, though earth be shaken and mountains quake to the depths of the sea,
Though its waters rage and foam and mountains totter at its surging. The LORD of hosts is with us; our stronghold is the God of Jacob. Selah
Streams of the river gladden the city of God, the holy dwelling of the Most High.
God is in its midst; it shall not be shaken; God will help it at break of day.
Though nations rage and kingdoms totter, God’s voice thunders and the earth trembles.
The LORD of hosts is with us; our stronghold is the God of Jacob. Selah
Come and see the works of the LORD, who has done fearsome deeds on earth;
Who stops wars to the ends of the earth, breaks the bow, splinters the spear, and burns the shields with fire;
Who says: "Be still and confess that I am God! I am exalted among the nations, exalted on the earth."
The LORD of hosts is with us; our stronghold is the God of Jacob. Selah

 

[sedonaman]

What would you say about the morality of spouse searching. Does God expect us to move about searching for a spouse?

I think the answer is partly in your signature,

Love is not merely a feeling; it is an act of will that consists of preferring, in a constant manner, the good of others to the good of oneself. – JP II

For some reason, I think, your question assumes the ideal is to “fall” into love while one is about his business of living, and dating “for fun” while you “wait” for Mr./Miss Perfect to come along. The problem with dating “for fun” is that one doesn’t marry someone he/she hasn’t dated. A lot of people don’t like the “bar scene”, and others might have an aversion to dating someone at work because a falling out socially can result in a bad working relationship. The number is further reduced for anyone who wishes to marry within the Church. As a result, the number of potential dating partners is rather limited by everyday life in our pluralistic society.

Recognizing these factors, the Church has a number of Catholic singles clubs, many of which have a priest assigned as a chaplain. In fact, I met my wife of 33 years in the Catholic Alumni Club [google] which is an organization of more than social activities. There are also cultural and religious ones. A member may enjoy any combination of them, you meet a lot of new people, and the number of potential spouses is increased tremendously. One thing I learned is that by volunteering for something as mundane as stuffing the monthly mail-out can allow you to learn more about someone than dating for several years.

Putting all of this together, one would hardly conclude that spouse searching is immoral. My advice, if you are looking to get married, is not to put artificial barriers in front of you. There are already enough of them.

 

[kelvinf]

I think the answer is partly in your signature,
For some reason, I think, your question assumes the ideal is to “fall” into love while one is about his business of living, and dating “for fun” while you “wait” for Mr./Miss Perfect to come along. The problem with dating “for fun” is that one doesn’t marry someone he/she hasn’t dated. A lot of people don’t like the “bar scene”, and others might have an aversion to dating someone at work because a falling out socially can result in a bad working relationship. The number is further reduced for anyone who wishes to marry within the Church. As a result, the number of potential dating partners is rather limited by everyday life in our pluralistic society.

Recognizing these factors, the Church has a number of Catholic singles clubs, many of which have a priest assigned as a chaplain. In fact, I met my wife of 33 years in the Catholic Alumni Club [google] which is an organization of more than social activities. There are also cultural and religious ones. A member may enjoy any combination of them, you meet a lot of new people, and the number of potential spouses is increased tremendously. One thing I learned is that by volunteering for something as mundane as stuffing the monthly mail-out can allow you to learn more about someone than dating for several years.

Putting all of this together, one would hardly conclude that spouse searching is immoral. My advice, if you are looking to get married, is not to put artificial barriers in front of you. There are already enough of them.

I must admit that after 46 posts on this thread, you are the first person amongst those posters I have been expecting to get their opinion who has been very very close in answering the question by saying that “one would hardly conclude that spouse searching is immoral”

Scrutinising this paragraph of yours,

Recognizing these factors, the Church has a number of Catholic singles clubs, many of which have a priest assigned as a chaplain. In fact, I met my wife of 33 years in the Catholic Alumni Club [google] which is an organization of more than social activities. There are also cultural and religious ones. A member may enjoy any combination of them, you meet a lot of new people, and the number of potential spouses is increased tremendously. One thing I learned is that by volunteering for something as mundane as stuffing the monthly mail-out can allow you to learn more about someone than dating for several years.

I see a lot of similarities with some of the things I have been saying (on this thread and on a related thread). For me, taking part in any church related activity (be it a “club” or “group”) is just part of the things catholics do (or should do) and in so doing one gets to make friends and… I see this: “stuffing the monthly mail-out can allow you to learn more about someone” like this: I believe the intention is to: stuff the monthly mail-out and in so doing one can: learn more about someone

 

[sedonaman]

…For me, taking part in any church related activity (be it a “club” or “group”) is just part of the things catholics do (or should do) and in so doing one gets to make friends and…

One thing I noticed as a single Catholic is the family-orientation of the activities of a typical parish. It left me with a little feeling of being an outsider, besides being somewhat lacking in single women my own age. But the CAC is just the opposite; there are no families since everyone is single [to join, you have to be eligible for marriage in the Church]. I had spent many years in mostly-male environments [engineering school, the military, and an engineering company]. When I went to my first CAC activity, I never realized there were so many eligible girls around.

 

[atassina]

Go find a woman. Court her. Marry. Have many children. Be happy.

 

[valient_Lucy]

If “with the hope of meeting…” means in the back of your mind, then it’s not what I am referring to as friend searching (just like job searching – solely with the intention of finding a job/friend)

. It’s not immoral. She has a call and is doing what she is supposed to be doing. If by asking this question you are trying to insinuate that it is equal to spouse hunting, then I don’t agree with you.** Let me just take religious life to be a career.** So to conclude you are simply trying to say that you support those who think that spouse hunting is the same as job hunting.

You state that religious life is a career. This is certainly not what the Cahtolic Church teaches. The religous life is a vocation, a holy calling from God. So is marriage. So, if it is wrong to actively persue one vocation (religous life) why is it wrong to actively persue another vocation (marriage?)

 

[dramaqueen]

Go find a woman. Court her. Marry. Have many children. Be happy.

Easier said then done…

 

[kelvinf]

You state that religious life is a career. This is certainly not what the Cahtolic Church teaches. The religous life is a vocation, a holy calling from God. So is marriage. So, if it is wrong to actively persue one vocation (religous life) why is it wrong to actively persue another vocation (marriage?)

Please don’t get me wrong. I wasn’t trying to suggest that religious life is a career as such although it is in certain context. E.g. Priesthood is somewhat an occupation. If you ask a priest, “what’s your occupation?”. I guess he will answer: “I am a priest”.

Your comparison is a bit tricky. What I know for sure is that people discern marriage. Pursing marriage sounds more like the spouse hunting which is our debate topic and I don’t see spouse hunting as a vocation.

 

[kelvinf]

You state that religious life is a career. This is certainly not what the Cahtolic Church teaches. The religous life is a vocation, a holy calling from God. So is marriage. So, if it is wrong to actively persue one vocation (religous life) why is it wrong to actively persue another vocation (marriage?)

I wasn’t sure of something or I want to clarify something – your example was about a woman actively searching for a religious order.
In my previous post I said: “Pursing marriage sounds more like the spouse hunting…” Well, in that context, I took pursue to mean “seek”. However, I understand pursuing marriage should actually mean, engaging in marriage.

I assume you aim at concluding that if it’s okay for one to pursue marriage, then it should be okay for one to engage in spouse hunting. I think such a conclusion wouldn’t hold.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Please don’t get me wrong. I wasn’t trying to suggest that religious life is a career as such although it is in certain context. E.g. Priesthood is somewhat an occupation. If you ask a priest, “what’s your occupation?”. I guess he will answer: “I am a priest”.

Your comparison is a bit tricky. **What I know for sure is that people discern marriage. **Pursing marriage sounds more like the spouse hunting which is our debate topic and I don’t see spouse hunting as a vocation.

While the priest may say “I’m a priest” in answer to the question “What is your occupation?” the fact is that the priesthood and religous life are far more compatible with marriage than with a job. Some nuns are licenced educators. I’m studying for my K-3 license right now, and one of my fellow students is a Notre Dame sister. Teaching is (and will be) her occupation. Religous life is her vocation. There’s a difference.

You stated that people discern marriage, as they discern all other vocations. Well, since marriage is a vocation, just like the vocation to the religous life, let’s think about how a woman who percieves a calling to religous life proceeds. She doesn’t sit in her room hoping that one day the head of a proper religous order will knock on her door and ask her to join. She investigates religous orders. She finds out more about them by talking to the sisters, learning about their respective charisms, and going on “Come and See retreats.” All of those are very active steps.

Think about St. Therese, wanting to be a Carmelite. She pestered the bishop and even the pope to permit her to enter Carmel! Did St. Therese show a lack of faith in God when she spoke to the pope (and had to be dragged away from him by the Swiss guards)?

 

[kelvinf]

Think about St. Therese, wanting to be a Carmelite. She pestered the bishop and even the pope to permit her to enter Carmel! Did St. Therese show a lack of faith in God when she spoke to the pope (and had to be dragged away from him by the Swiss guards)?

No. She did what she was supposed to do. So what’s your conclusion?

What’s a K-3 licence? I don’t know and would like to know

 

[Ridgerunner]

wow

that is a perfect love story for me

Well, I’ll confess that she was also drop-dead beautiful. Still is.

But over the years, both she an I have marveled at our initial notion, and how fortunate it was that we quite accidently, and in a very unlikely situation, hit upon one of one of the central things a marriage should be about. Mutually being the other’s confidant. But for that, I don’t know that we would have ever come to love each other. How did we ever arrive at that as the very first (and at the time, only) aspect of our relationship? I will always be amazed and mystified.

We mention that sometimes to others. Some understand. Some don’t.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

No. She did what she was supposed to do. So what’s your conclusion?

Her conclusion, from what I can tell, is she did her due dilligence in her disernment of her vocation. This is akin to what you call “spouse searching.” If one feels that they should be married, they should go about making themselves available to be married.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Her conclusion, from what I can tell, is she did her due dilligence in her disernment of her vocation. This is akin to what you call “spouse searching.” If one feels that they should be married, they should go about making themselves available to be married.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. St. Therese was called to be a Carmelite nun, and while she trusted in God’s will, she still took a very active role in fulfilling her vocation, far more active than most, I would say. She was only 15, and the Carmelite rule forbid her from joining until she was 21, I believe. She spoke to her father and had to persuade her uncle to allow her to join. When she spoke to the priest and spiritual director of the Carmelite Order of Liseaux, he told her she could not join, she was too young. She could have gone home and passively waited to turn 21, and been a good daughter and sister. Instead she and her father go over the spiritual director’s head, and try to persuade the bishop! When he declines, she goes to the Pope! As I said, she had to be dragged away from him by the Swiss Guards (a very comical scene in the book, actually.) For all our images of St. Therese as the sweet girl with the roses, she was actually a woman with a will of iron, and while she trusted in God, she wasn’t about to sit at home and wait for things to happen. Face it, St. Therese was basically in an arm wrestling match with the priest in charge of the Carmelite Order, and she eventually wore him down.

My conclusion is, St. Therese did not believe that taking an active role in her life and in the discernment and fulfillment of her vocation negated her trust in God. Rather, she saw her actions as proof of her faith in God. This has also been the conclusion of most other Catholics (including Kelvinf) Therefore, if a person decides to take an active role in discerning and fulfilling their vocation to be married, it does not necessarily follow that the person lacks faith in God.

 

[valient_Lucy]

No. She did what she was supposed to do. So what’s your conclusion?

What’s a K-3 licence? I don’t know and would like to know

I posted my answer in my response to ComputerGeek25.

Oh, K-3 license means I’ll be licensed to teach kindergarden through 3rd grade. You said you’re from Germany, right? Well, in most states, American children go to school from kindergarden through 12th grade. Kindergarden is roughly 5-6 year olds, and 3rd grade is roughly 8-9 year olds. So I’ll be licensed to teach children aged 5-9, basically.