The morality of spouse searching

[tafan]

ComputerGeek25:

I fail to see how just sitting around waiting for something to happen works. God said he would provide for our wants and needs, but we have to do our part. For example, I need to eat. Food costs money. I exchange labor (God gave me talents that I can use for labor) for money. Therefore, I don’t starve because I have money which can buy food. Mannah doesn’t just fall from heaven for me and most people I know.

You just lack faith, I am willing to wait for God to send down manna from heaven. He did it to for the Isrealites, of course he will do it for me. I need biblical or theological proof suggesting that food hunting is ok.

PS. I am 5’11 and weigh 85 lbs.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

You just lack faith, I am willing to wait for God to send down manna from heaven. He did it to for the Isrealites, of course he will do it for me. I need biblical or theological proof suggesting that food hunting is ok.

PS. I am 5’11 and weigh 85 lbs.

Thanks for the laugh!

 

[kelvinf]

kelvinf, I am not saying that taking a date on a picnic or looking for a spouse over an internet sight does not need to be morally evaluated, of course it does. But you said it could only be moral if there was biblical or theological proof that said it was moral. I’m sorry, that is not out moral theology works. All acts must be evaluated based on a well-formed conscience. To aid the formation of the conscience, the church generally tells us what is either a) wrong or b) required to do. There are lots of acts the church will always be silent on in general. Your idea that any act is only moral if there is biblical or theological proof for it being moral is wrong.

Just like taking my date to a picnic, could be good , could be bad, needs to be evaluated. Thats where your “spouse hunting” comes into play.

As part of that evaluation and your thoughts, I would go back to something you posted on the second page of this thread. I had responded, but you didn’t seem to catch my response. Here was a statement you made:

As you said, the Church generally tells us what is wrong or required to do. I will generalise it by saying that the Church teaches/instructs us.
It is interesting that you have ignored my main question and tend to focus on what I wrote in parenthesis (biblical and theological proof).

So what does the Church “requires us to do” when it comes to getting to know our spouses? (I have my own opinion that I can back biblically)

And if everybody agrees that good relationships arise from friendship and that marriage arises from relationship, then spouse searching does not fit in the equation.

I don’t agree. Good marriages arise from two people who continually decide to love each other. This is far more important than anything else. Friendship may follow or may come first, but it is never the cause of the good marriage. Since a good marraige requires two people with a good understanding of what it means to love each other, particularly love being an act of will, I think spouse hunting is often proper. One must make sure one finds a partner who understands what it is all about. I see nothing wrong with hunting for that partner.

I read your post and your message (you don’t agree…) went through.
If you are interested in getting a response, I will say add “good” before friendship. Good friendships also arise from two people who continually decide to love each other. Good friendship requires love.
Good friendship → good relationship → good marriage. (all require love and decision)

 

[kelvinf]

With all due respect to St. Paul, if all people back then agreed with that particular belief of his, the human race would’ve died hundreds of years ago from lack of reproduction.

Interesting enough. You are not the first person on CAF I have come across to make “funny” comments about St. Paul.

St Paul was, I would say, “the founder of Christianity”.
He said that because of immorality, every man should have his own wife. But he would prefer that all were single. It doesn’t end there, it involves taking into consideration God’s plan, the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and St. Paul. And as such, some do marry for the good of the spouses, procreation and the education of offspring while others don’t marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[kelvinf]

I don’t see how spouse searching causes divorce.

People who feel forced into marriage may not have a valid marriage in the first place.

People fall frequently fall into sin, for exmaple, adultury.

People generally go out and meet people and determine whether they are compatible or not. There is nothing wrong with this. The Church even uses the FOCCUS test during marriage prep to help determine compatibility/areas of improvement.

Well, divorce by its very nature means that the two were not meant to be together in the first place. So I find it interesting to evaluate how such people do meet in the first place. I believe that if people meet according to God’s way, then they would have happy marriages.

It’s not just a matter of a valid marriage, I am more concerned about the afflictions of some spouses that can very well be avoided.

And then again and again:
What does God expect from us when it comes to getting to know our spouses?
How have Christians been going about it for 2000 years?

I have had enough of logic and want something biblical or theological.

I fail to see how just sitting around waiting for something to happen works. God said he would provide for our wants and needs, but we have to do our part. For example, I need to eat. Food costs money. I exchange labor (God gave me talents that I can use for labor) for money. Therefore, I don’t starve because I have money which can buy food. Mannah doesn’t just fall from heaven for me and most people I know.

Based on some posts, I don’t know why some people are rushing to the conclusion that, not engaging in “spouse hunting” == waiting for manna to fall down from heaven. Personally, I believe in doing what we are supposed to be doing:
An example (one of those my biblical proofs ) is Ruth in the book of Ruth. She did what she was supposed to be doing (working in the fields) and in so doing, see found her husband.

About working:
Let me borrow part of someone’s post from another thread:

Originally Posted by PJM
…
**God First!

Family second

Work third.**

Be sure to not create fo yourself “other gods.” Money, sex, power ect.

Love and prayers,

Pat

It comes third in Pat’s list. Some or most of us do work to be able to cater for our basic needs. However, some do not work in order to focus on that most important thing (item 1 in Pat’s list) and have to rely on others for help. Again, example: St Francis of Assisi.
Please don’t rush to that famous conclusion that I am suggesting that people should just sit down and wait for manna to fall down from heaven.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Well, divorce by its very nature means that the two were not meant to be together in the first place. So I find it interesting to evaluate how such people do meet in the first place. I believe that if people meet according to God’s way, then they would have happy marriages.

It’s not just a matter of a valid marriage, I am more concerned about the afflictions of some spouses that can very well be avoided.

I don’t think this is right. I highly disagree with this. Jesus himself said that the reason the old law allowed for divorce was that people hardend their hearts.

This still rings true.

Love, sometimes is more an act of the will, than anything “mystical.”

Even if you are correct, people still need to work on their relationships.

I think you have misconceptions about divorce and how people meet.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Please don’t rush to that famous conclusion that I am suggesting that people should just sit down and wait for manna to fall down from heaven.

Breaking this into 2 pieces.

Well, in one spot you state that divorce is caused by people who probably shouldn’t be together, and somehow God has a hand in matchmaking.

[As an aside, this may be one cause of divorce among many, however, the way you state things makes it sound like it is]

I say this sounds like mannah from Heaven. How do you reconcile this?

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Good friendship → good relationship → good marriage. (all require love and decision)

This is the path many people take while spouche searching as you call it. The become acquainted, develop a relationship and then get married - in very simplistic tearms.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Interesting enough. You are not the first person on CAF I have come across to make “funny” comments about St. Paul.

St Paul was, I would say, “the founder of Christianity”.
He said that because of immorality, every man should have his own wife. But he would prefer that all were single. It doesn’t end there, it involves taking into consideration God’s plan, the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and St. Paul. And as such, some do marry for the good of the spouses, procreation and the education of offspring while others don’t marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Sorry but Christ is the real founder of Christianity. Whatever St. Paul did, he just organized it. Also, are you implying that procreation and education of offspring is somehow inferior to being single for the Kingdom of Heaven because that’s the vibe I’m getting from this response.

Besides, who’s to say that having a family can’t be for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven either? Many of the Church’s most core doctrines regarding sexuality is not only to protect the Natural Order but because also one of the things most sacred to God: Family.

 

[dramaqueen]

people should just sit down and wait for manna to fall down from heaven.

actually i know few stories about manna coming down form heaven when it comes to spouse searching. Some of them are pretty funny too. it is not impossible scenario. If God wants two people to meet He will find a way for them to meet. It might help if you go out there and search, maybe that’s what God intended for you in the first place, or you might be called to pray in your room quietly for a spouse and one will come knocking on you door. Everything is possible to God. What matters is asking God what is you calling, listening carefully and then do God’s will. What most of us don’t realize is that we never bother to ask God what He wants from us (what is our calling) and that’s why we rush into decisions about marriage and divorce is one of the consequences of our actions.
We each have a path to trod on as God designed it to our specific needs we just need to take time to accept it and walk on it.

God bless you all

 

[ComputerGeek25]

people should just sit down and wait for manna to fall down from heaven.

actually i know few stories about manna coming down form heaven when it comes to spouse searching. Some of them are pretty funny too. it is not impossible scenario. If God wants two people to meet He will find a way for them to meet. It might help if you go out there and search, maybe that’s what God intended for you in the first place, or you might be called to pray in your room quietly for a spouse and one will come knocking on you door. Everything is possible to God. What matters is asking God what is you calling, listening carefully and then do God’s will. What most of us don’t realize is that we never bother to ask God what He wants from us (what is our calling) and that’s why we rush into decisions about marriage and divorce is one of the consequences of our actions.
We each have a path to trod on as God designed it to our specific needs we just need to take time to accept it and walk on it.

God bless you all

Again, how do you reconcile some of what you say with free will?

 

[kelvinf]

Again, how do you reconcile some of what you say with free will?

God loves us so much so that he has given us a choice (free will). We can choose to obey him or not. That is what free will in the biblical context is all about.
We have the free will to choose the right path and go to heaven or to choose the wrong path and go to hell.

In short, free will has a consequence – reward or punishment.

I think it is often confused with the free will to choose between let me say a pink and a purple car (I call this the “secular free will”).

 

[Bookcat]

St Paul was, I would say, “the founder of Christianity”.

Actually Jesus was…he founded his Church…but Paul was very involved in spreading his Gospel and founding the local churches…

As for spouse searching…yes one can seek a spouse…(so long as your not already married…or a Monk or something…)

Spouse hunting on the other hand is not permitted.

 

[kelvinf]

Originally Posted by Lost Wanderer
Sorry but Christ is the real founder of Christianity. Whatever St. Paul did, he just organized it

Actually Jesus was…he founded his Church…but Paul was very involved in spreading his Gospel and founding the local churches…

There is a reason why I put part of what I said in quotes. I actually read somewhere that St. Paul was the founder of Christianity. There is even a book called: " Paul - founder of Christianity" but I haven’t read it and I don’t know its author.
I also know that others say Jesus was the founder of Christianity.

However
Acts 11: 25-26:

Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul. When he found him, he took him to Antioch, and for a whole year the two met with the people of the church and taught a large group. It was at Antioch that the believers were first called Christians.

I believe there is a reason why the believers were first called Christians after Christ’s death. Otherwise, they would have been called Christians while Christ was alive.

 

[Bookcat]

There is a reason why I put that in quotes. I have actually read that St. Paul was the founder of Christianity. I also know that others say Jesus was the founder of Christianity.

Acts 11: 25-26:

I believe there is a reason why the believers were first called Christians after Christ’s dead. Otherwise, they would have been called Christians while Christ was alive.

yes Jesus founded the Church…and Paul was not the first one to call Christians Christian…in fact Paul does not even use the term Christian in his writings.

Members of the Church where called…disciples…then those of the “the way”…then Christians…

(of course we are still called disciples and Christians)

Jesus founded the Church…Paul established local churches and spread the Gospel…

Oh and by the way…Christ did not open use the term Messiah (Christ) during his ministry…so his disciples were well…his disciples during his work walking the earth…
later the name was coined in Antioch (by Greeks it seems) …and later it is in the writings of a Bishop of Antioch that we further have earliest evidence of his Church called Catholic …around the turn of the Century…

 

[kelvinf]

Actually Jesus was…he founded his Church…but Paul was very involved in spreading his Gospel and founding the local churches…

As for spouse searching…yes one can seek a spouse…(so long as your not already married…or a Monk or something…)

Spouse hunting on the other hand is not permitted.

Could you shed more light on what you mean by “seek”? (and how?)

 

[Bookcat]

Could you shed more light on what you mean by “seek”? (and how?)

any normal moral way…via friends…clubs…mutual interests…Ave Maria online…

lots of ways one can seek a spouse…and of course pray for one…if you think that is your vocation

(the hunting thing was a joke…ie with a gun)

 

[Bookcat]

one way to seek: www.avemariasingles.com

 

[Bookcat]

by clubs I was not meaning “clubing” …but social clubs…Catholic Clubs…etc

 

[kelvinf]

…Ave Maria online…

Is that what Christians have been doing for 2000 years?