The morality of spouse searching

[Bookcat]

Is that what Christians have been doing for 2000 years?

yes…we invented the internet in AD 34…



with the change in society…new ways open up…

Used to be that one hand close neighborhoods where you met your spouse…but now such is often not the case…

But yes that is one way…or Church…or cultural events…etc…asking a girl out helps…

 

[kelvinf]

I don’t think this is right. I highly disagree with this. Jesus himself said that the reason the old law allowed for divorce was that people hardend their hearts.

This still rings true.

Love, sometimes is more an act of the will, than anything “mystical.”

Even if you are correct, people still need to work on their relationships.

I think you have misconceptions about divorce and how people meet.

I don’t have any misconception about divorce. As I earlier said, there could be 101 reasons why people divorce (infidelity, contraception, loneliness, abuse etc.). For me, they all boil down to how the couples met in the first place.

Maybe because of loneliness, depression, duress, self-seeking, one engages in “spouse hunting” comprises certain values in order to find a partner – and end up finding the wrong partner only to realise after 5, 10, 29, 40 years of marriage .

It is very clear, if couples get to know each other according to God’s way/will, they would never divorce. And as I said, divorce means that the couples weren’t meant to be together in the first place. And it makes sense to question how they met.

 

[kelvinf]

Breaking this into 2 pieces.

Well, in one spot you state that divorce is caused by people who probably shouldn’t be together, and somehow God has a hand in matchmaking.

[As an aside, this may be one cause of divorce among many, however, the way you state things makes it sound like it is]

I say this sounds like mannah from Heaven. How do you reconcile this?

How do you reconcile Adam getting a spouse without doing anything? How do you reconcile Ruth getting to meet her husband without actively engaging in “spouse hunting”?

How do you reconcile Sarah and Elizabeth each having a child when they thought it wasn’t possible?

 

[kelvinf]

This is the path many people take while spouche searching as you call it. The become acquainted, develop a relationship and then get married - in very simplistic tearms.

We generally meet people in life without actively engaging in a search. I understand you are one of those who said that they also engage in friend searching. But I know people generally don’t move around or engage in a process of searching for other people.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

How do you reconcile Adam getting a spouse without doing anything? How do you reconcile Ruth getting to meet her husband without actively engaging in “spouse hunting”?

How do you reconcile Sarah and Elizabeth each having a child when they thought it wasn’t possible?

Why do you make it out as if you ask God for something, He’s going to come down and give it you like some kinda genie?

I’ve been asking for a girlfriend a long time and hardly ever do anything remotely close to spouse hunting due to circumstances that restrict my ability to go out more…

Guess what? Nothing happens. The same thing for a lot of things I prayed for but never get because I’m just sitting on my toosh and not helping myself.

How do you reconcile with that?

 

[kelvinf]

Why do you make it out as if you ask God for something, He’s going to come down and give it you like some kinda genie?

I’ve been asking for a girlfriend a long time and hardly ever do anything remotely close to spouse hunting due to circumstances that restrict my ability to go out more…

Guess what? Nothing happens. The same thing for a lot of things I prayed for but never get because I’m just sitting on my toosh and not helping myself.

How do you reconcile with that?

I am not the best person to provide you with an answer as to how God responds to people’s prayers. Maybe God has a different plan for you. Maybe he doesn’t want you to find yourself in a situation that you are not well prepared to handle.
Those with girlfriends are more exposed to temptations than those without. Maybe God wants to keep you away from temptation.

I know for sure that God’s time is the best.

I used to also have this problem of wanting a girlfriend (although I never prayed and asked God for one). I later came to realise that God actually wants me to grow stronger in faith, put him first in my life, love him above all things. And I am very convinced that God will lead me to my spouse.

If you could get a girlfriend by yourself, then by now you should have found one.

God’s time is the best.

 

[kelvinf]

Also, are you implying that procreation and education of offspring is somehow inferior to being single for the Kingdom of Heaven because that’s the vibe I’m getting from this response.

Besides, who’s to say that having a family can’t be for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven either? Many of the Church’s most core doctrines regarding sexuality is not only to protect the Natural Order but because also one of the things most sacred to God: Family.

What I said is more or less the exact words of Jesus of Nazareth. (I am sure pope John Paul II has clarified this issue of superiority /inferiority of some vocations in his book.)

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

What I said is more or less the exact words of Jesus of Nazareth. (I am sure pope John Paul II has clarified this issue of superiority /inferiority of some vocations in his book.)

No, you said St. Paul was the one who put singlehood over marriage, not Jesus. And if I recall, JP2 was actually the one who published Theology of the Body and it’s the things I gleaned from it that I got the idea that procreation, starting a family, and educating the next generation is just as sacred and holy a vocation as celibate singlehood.

By the way, you never really addressed the importance of sexual reproduction to the survival of a species. If what St. Paul said was really binding and mandatory (which is, again, the vibe I’m getting from you) then are you actually advocating our extinction?

I am not the best person to provide you with an answer as to how God responds to people’s prayers. Maybe God has a different plan for you. Maybe he doesn’t want you to find yourself in a situation that you are not well prepared to handle.
Those with girlfriends are more exposed to temptations than those without. Maybe God wants to keep you away from temptation.

I know for sure that God’s time is the best.

I used to also have this problem of wanting a girlfriend (although I never prayed and asked God for one). I later came to realise that God actually wants me to grow stronger in faith, put him first in my life, love him above all things. And I am very convinced that God will lead me to my spouse.

If you could get a girlfriend by yourself, then by now you should have found one.

God’s time is the best.

So instead of a genie, God’s now some puppeteer and we humans are the dolls from whom He pulls strings.

Look let’s face facts. We and God BOTH have a part to play in His plan. I believe that when we ask for something, He only helps us by advising us a particular direction. It is still up to US to get off our butts and actually go in that direction. If I’m strolling and I want a cup of coffee, He doesn’t magically make it appear in front of me. The only divine intervention I’ll get is the smell of it from a nearby Starbucks. I still have to walk over there, make my order, and pay for it before actually getting that cup.

Now I have discerned for a long time and I’ve received many small signs that celibacy is not for me. It is not for even a majority of the human race lest we perish as a species.

And whether you like it or not, loneliness is a good sign that you are called to marry. Stuff like divorce is not the result of people searching out of loneliness. It is merely the lack of discernment just the same way as with priests caught in scandal. It is also a sign of weakness in commitment (again, the same with religious) and lack of knowing what (or in this case who) you really want.

 

[tafan]

As you said, the Church generally tells us what is wrong or required to do. I will generalise it by saying that the Church teaches/instructs us.
It is interesting that you have ignored my main question and tend to focus on what I wrote in parenthesis (biblical and theological proof).

So what does the Church “requires us to do” when it comes to getting to know our spouses? (I have my own opinion that I can back biblically)

I read your post and your message (you don’t agree…) went through.
If you are interested in getting a response, I will say add “good” before friendship. Good friendships also arise from two people who continually decide to love each other. Good friendship requires love.
Good friendship → good relationship → good marriage. (all require love and decision)

I focused on the part in parethesis because it seemed to sum up the entire point of this thread, you insist on someone proving to you that it is ok. It is beyond moral evaluation, you want proof. That is you main flaw on this thread. There are countless types of actions, that have moral implications and can be evaluated right/wrong with a fell formed, catholic conscience, but for which there is no definitive statemetn by the church or in scripture that says “it is ok”.

Now, the underlying issue, spouse-hunting, I think we should agree to disagree on. It is apparent you will be satisfied with none of anyone’s responses, since we can find no bible verse that says using the internet dating sites is ok. So I would just give it up if I were you. If you think using catholicsingles.com is wrong, don’t do it.

 

[kelvinf]

in fact Paul does not even use the term Christian in his writings.

Are you sure???

 

[kelvinf]

No, you said St. Paul was the one who put singlehood over marriage, not Jesus. And if I recall, JP2 was actually the one who published Theology of the Body and it’s the things I gleaned from it that I got the idea that procreation, starting a family, and educating the next generation is just as sacred and holy a vocation as celibate singlehood.

By the way, you never really addressed the importance of sexual reproduction to the survival of a species. If what St. Paul said was really binding and mandatory (which is, again, the vibe I’m getting from you) then are you actually advocating our extinction?

Mt. 19:12:

Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it

I started with St. Paul and later decided to add Jesus of Nazareth.
Well, this thread is related to singles and how they embrace singlehood. And I chose to point out to those “benefits” of singlehood.

But as I said somewhere, everything Jesus of Nazareth and St. Paul said have to be combined with what God said “multiply and fill the earth”. So anybody who really understands and takes into consideration the complete context wouldn’t worry about why I am focusing only on singlehood.

Look let’s face facts. We and God BOTH have a part to play in His plan. I believe that when we ask for something, He only helps us by advising us a particular direction. It is still up to US to get off our butts and actually go in that direction.

Yes, God has a plan for us and he sent the Helper to guide us. The question is whether we do honestly discern God’s plan for us and do according to his will. It would be interesting to know the number of those who use online dating sites as a result of discerning God’s plan and obeying his will.

And whether you like it or not, loneliness is a good sign that you are called to marry. Stuff like divorce is not the result of people searching out of loneliness. It is merely the lack of discernment just the same way as with priests caught in scandal. It is also a sign of weakness in commitment (again, the same with religious) and lack of knowing what (or in this case who) you really want.

Well, I would be careful to engage in a relationship with someone I know is lonely and who is not willing to find joy in the Lord. Marriage does not always solve loneliness as we might think. On the divorce threads I have come across, I have discerned loneliness as a factor.
One was the case of a cancer patient whose husband abandoned her. It is very clear that the guy felt lonely and decided to “self-seek” again. And I have read similar stories about husbands abandoning their wives in times of sickness. For me, this is clearly self-seeking. In the process of discerning their spouses, they were probably blinded by loneliness and self-seeking. When they got married and found themselves in situations of loneliness, they decided to “self-seek” again – hurting and making their spouses lonely. Hence, marriage does not solve loneliness as such. Interesting and challenging things will happen during marriage and it is only then that we get to discover the truth. However, we shouldn’t wait until then to discover the truth. Afflictions of spouses could be prevented in the first place.

Loneliness is a reality. I do feel lonely at times but it just shouldn’t be the reason why I should marry or convince someone to marry me. I believe loneliness is something we can live with. If we remain in Christ’s love and obey his commandments, our joy will be complete (Jn 15:9-11). Seeking for a spouse because of loneliness is a dangerous thing to do, I believe. It might end up hurting someone else or even the seeker.

 

[kelvinf]

I’ve experienced lonliness plenty of times in my life. In my 20s I was in numerous relationships with various men. I loved the attention that I received; I felt desired and beautiful. I often mistook lust for love. I thought I always needed a boyfriend in my life in order to fill the void that I had. Not till I turned 30 did I realize that void could only be filled by Jesus! Now I have no desire to even have a boyfriend! I know that God has a special man waiting for me. I just need to be patient, because He will eventually reveal him to me. I’ll pray that God may fill your lonely heart with much needed abundant love.

God bless you,
Marilyn

 

[benedictus2]

What I mean by “move about” is for instance, to go to an online dating site searching for a spouse or anywhere one goes and meets people, he thinks or aims at finding a spouse amongst them.

I am asking this question so that I will clearly know the grounds on which to base my arguments when I debate with others.

Personally, spouse searching does not really make sense to me. It was God’s wish to provide Adam with a partner and God created Eve in a way he thought Adam would like. So Eve was God’s choice and not Adams.
When people move about today “filtering” others in the name of finding Mr. or Miss, then I wonder if that’s what God requires of us.

So that’s what I would like to know (if it’s okay for people to be searching for a spouse. I don’t mean praying to God… but practical searching like online dating and stuff like that)

I tend to go with your view point. If God wants to provide you with a spouse He will. Pray for one and be open to opportunities.

As the song goes, love come from the most unexpected places.

 

[kelvinf]

I focused on the part in parethesis because it seemed to sum up the entire point of this thread, you insist on someone proving to you that it is ok. It is beyond moral evaluation, you want proof. That is you main flaw on this thread. There are countless types of actions, that have moral implications and can be evaluated right/wrong with a fell formed, catholic conscience, but for which there is no definitive statemetn by the church or in scripture that says “it is ok”.

Now, the underlying issue, spouse-hunting, I think we should agree to disagree on. It is apparent you will be satisfied with none of anyone’s responses, since we can find no bible verse that says using the internet dating sites is ok. So I would just give it up if I were you. If you think using catholicsingles.com is wrong, don’t do it.

The entire point of this thread is a question which I am posing. It has however become more of a “questions and answers debate” and I made known my opinion. It would be helpful for me if someone can justify “spouse hunting” from a theological or biblical perspective. What is the flaw in that?

I am posing this question not for my seek but because of the concern I have for others.

I don’t use online dating sites.

I wouldn’t give up in seeking to understand something which might be beneficial to a lot of people. I am not relying solely on CAF for an answer. The logic used my some people here doesn’t really suffice.
I will pose the question to others whom I know would approach it from a theological or biblical perspective.

 

[kelvinf]

I tend to go with your view point. If God wants to provide you with a spouse He will. Pray for one and be open to opportunities.

As the song goes, love come from the most unexpected places.

It is nice to hear that.

 

[seanflynn]

It is very clear, if couples get to know each other according to God’s way/will, they would never divorce. And as I said, divorce means that the couples weren’t meant to be together in the first place. And it makes sense to question how they met.

This is not clear to me at all. I would think that people get divorced not because they married the wrong person, but because they have not formed themselves (or allowed God to form them) to be able to love sacrificially, fully, fruitfully, freely, and faithfully. More simply, they don’t know how to be a husband or wife.

Generally, Kelvinf, I agree with what I think you are implying: That a man should go through life following God’s will for him, pursuing interests, vocation (what it is, not who it is), education, career, friendship, etc. And this lifelong process will seem somewhat organic. And while doing the things he ought to do, he will become the man God has made him to be (otherwise, he oughtn’t have done them). In this natural progression of pursuits, he will meet many people, presumably half of them of the opposite sex. It is from these coincidental, or naturally-forming, relationships that he will meet someone to marry.

It seems to me that there is some plateau of formation and understanding of Catholic marriage (full of chosen love and self-sacrifice for the sake of the beloved) that only a fraction of the human race has climbed, but any of the men on this plateau could successfully marry any of the women on this plateau. By successfully, I mean not divorce, and lead each other and their children to heaven.

Part of a man’s natural process of living his life and pursuing God’s will would include putting himself in a postition to be formed/readied for a holy marriage, as well as putting himself in postition to find a spouse who is likewise formed. I think it is possible that for a time in his life, God’s purpose for a man would be specifically to search for a spouse, but I don’t think it’s the norm to live by until you’re married. Following God wherever He takes you will bring you to where you’re supposed to be.

Coming from me, though, all of this is theoretical, as I am unmarried, and am close friends or relatives with almost zero divorced people.

As an attempt to answer the original question, kelvinf: it depends.
Seeking, searching, even hunting for a spouse doesn’t *seem *immoral to me (not the test for morality, I know) but it doesn’t seem like a good idea either. One could easily get caught up in the pursuit, turning it into false God.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Mt. 19:12:
I started with St. Paul and later decided to add Jesus of Nazareth.
Well, this thread is related to singles and how they embrace singlehood. And I chose to point out to those “benefits” of singlehood.

Well there’s a difference between pointing out the benefits and trying to raise up one higher than the other.

Yes, God has a plan for us and he sent the Helper to guide us. The question is whether we do honestly discern God’s plan for us and do according to his will. It would be interesting to know the number of those who use online dating sites as a result of discerning God’s plan and obeying his will.

I’m confident that whatever reason you have to doubt the discernment of those who engage in spouse hunting, I can use against those who eagerly attend the seminary.

Well, I would be careful to engage in a relationship with someone I know is lonely and who is not willing to find joy in the Lord. Marriage does not always solve loneliness as we might think. On the divorce threads I have come across, I have discerned loneliness as a factor.

One was the case of a cancer patient whose husband abandoned her. It is very clear that the guy felt lonely and decided to “self-seek” again. And I have read similar stories about husbands abandoning their wives in times of sickness. For me, this is clearly self-seeking.

In the process of discerning their spouses, they were probably blinded by loneliness and self-seeking. When they got married and found themselves in situations of loneliness, they decided to “self-seek” again – hurting and making their spouses lonely. Hence, marriage does not solve loneliness as such. Interesting and challenging things will happen during marriage and it is only then that we get to discover the truth. However, we shouldn’t wait until then to discover the truth. Afflictions of spouses could be prevented in the first place.

Sorry but again the same can be said of religious vocations. Relying on feelings of spiritual euphoria (your so-called “joy in the Lord”) is actually just as good a reason for caution as engaging in a relationship out of desperate loneliness. That’s why commitment and faithfulness become crucial.

I’m sure you’re well aware that the priest scandals have been used as a deadly argument against priestly celibacy. Loneliness was a factor there as well. Our defense though is that people who have an emotional reliance on prayer, spiritual activity, and religious life are no stronger than those who rely on relationships. I personally know an atheist who has the same situation with God as one of the many divorce scenarios you have. God was absent from his life (like how cancer made the wife absent from the husband) and now he is simply “self-seeking”.

Don’t you see? The path you advocate is no holier a path than the path of those choosing to seek for spouses. You speak of fulfillment and cures for loneliness out of spiritual activity and piety. That’s no different from those finding the same in romantic relationships and marriage. You claim that it’s dangerous for them to seek spouses out of loneliness, the same can be said of those like you who seek God for the same reasons.

You think religious single-hood isn’t fraught with challenges? Think again. You think they’re not as challenging as those who marry? Think harder.

Loneliness is a reality. I do feel lonely at times but it just shouldn’t be the reason why I should marry or convince someone to marry me. I believe loneliness is something we can live with. If we remain in Christ’s love and obey his commandments, our joy will be complete (Jn 15:9-11). Seeking for a spouse because of loneliness is a dangerous thing to do, I believe. It might end up hurting someone else or even the seeker.

Again, fire the same shots against religious single-hood, it’s all the same. It is in faithfulness and commitment that we remain strong, not purely in feelings of joy, euphoria, ecstasy (be it found in soul mates OR God).

To put it simply…

Q: What do a priest-in-scandal and a cheating spouse have in common?
A: They’re both unfaithful.

 

[tafan]

kelvinf:

The entire point of this thread is a question which I am posing. It has however become more of a “questions and answers debate” and I made known my opinion. It would be helpful for me if someone can justify “spouse hunting” from a theological or biblical perspective. What is the flaw in that?

Because you will not be satisisfied unless someone can give you sometime of inarguable proof. That does not exist. But that does not mean it is wrong. Yet you will only accept that it is wrong.

Here is the best I can do, since I am not a theologian. I made a quick check on two of the common catholic dating internet sites and I found these:

Fr Frank Pavone: “In Christian marriage, one’s spouse is one’s “Number Two,” while the only “Number One” is God. CatholicMatch.com is laying the groundwork so that in loving God, future spouses may find the only way to adequately love each other”.

Fr Benedict Groeschel: “Someone in my family married an AMS member. I fully support and promote this important work”

Those two have some theological and spiritual direction skins on the wall.

 

[dramaqueen]

God loves us so much so that he has given us a choice (free will). We can choose to obey him or not. That is what free will in the biblical context is all about.
We have the free will to choose the right path and go to heaven or to choose the wrong path and go to hell.

In short, free will has a consequence – reward or punishment.

I think it is often confused with the free will to choose between let me say a pink and a purple car (I call this the “secular free will”).

Well said.
God gave us free will to chose Him as our God or not. If we do chose by our own free will to follow Him we have to also accept a path He designed for us.
Mind if i borrow that phrase “secular free will” form you? it explains a whole lot.

Thank you @kelvinf

God bless you all

 

[kelvinf]

…Yet you will only accept that it is wrong…

No. If that were the case, I wouldn’t have posed the question in the first place. For me, some cases are clearly wrong (e.g. self-seeking).

I do like posts #47 and #116 although they concluded like this:

…
Putting all of this together, one would hardly conclude that spouse searching is immoral. My advice, if you are looking to get married, is not to put artificial barriers in front of you. There are already enough of them.

…
As an attempt to answer the original question, kelvinf: it depends.
Seeking, searching, even hunting for a spouse doesn’t *seem *immoral to me (not the test for morality, I know) but it doesn’t seem like a good idea either. One could easily get caught up in the pursuit, turning it into false God.