The morality of spouse searching

[kelvinf]

… I would think that people get divorced not because they married the wrong person, but because they have not formed themselves (or allowed God to form them) to be able to love sacrificially, fully, fruitfully, freely, and faithfully. More simply, they don’t know how to be a husband or wife…

Ok, so people who haven’t formed themselves (in the way you nicely explained above) shouldn’t get married in the first place (and it could prevent divorce) right?

BTW, I did like your entire post.

 

[kelvinf]

…

I’m sure you’re well aware that the priest scandals have been used as a deadly argument against priestly celibacy.

which is a baseless argument. A pedophile is a pedophile. It has got nothing to do with celibacy. Unless you want adults to start getting married to children.

Don’t you see?

I don’t see.

Q: What do a priest-in-scandal and a cheating spouse have in common?

A: They were not meant to be there in the first place.

Maybe there is something I am missing. Do you really believe in God and in the Gospel? (And I mean believing 100% in God and in the Gospel and not the “cafeteria-style”)

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

which is a baseless argument. A pedophile is a pedophile. It has got nothing to do with celibacy. Unless you want adults to start getting married to children.

I never said pedophile. Where’d you get that? And if you’re well aware, it wasn’t a pedophile problem. The victims weren’t children. Do your research. Besides, there are even nuns who claim such misconduct from priests so it isn’t age exclusive.

A: They were not meant to be there in the first place.

Maybe there is something I am missing. Do you really believe in God and in the Gospel? (And I mean believing 100% in God and in the Gospel and not the “cafeteria-style”)

What does that have to do with anything? Just cuz I don’t treat God as either a genie or some puppeteer you now irrelevantly question my faith or something? With all due respect, I’m insulted. No red herrings please. Stick to the topic.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I never said pedophile. Where’d you get that? And if you’re well aware, it wasn’t a pedophile problem. The victims weren’t children. Do your research. Besides, there are even nuns who claim such misconduct from priests so it isn’t age exclusive.

What does that have to do with anything? Just cuz I don’t treat God as either a genie or some puppeteer you now irrelevantly question my faith or something? With all due respect, I’m insulted. No red herrings please. Stick to the topic.

I am somewhat offended as well.

People sin, but it’s not due to “it wasn’t meant to be.” People divorce (in the case of marriage) or abuse children (in the case of priests) because they have the mark of sin.

 

[kelvinf]

I never said pedophile. Where’d you get that? And if you’re well aware, it wasn’t a pedophile problem. The victims weren’t children. Do your research. Besides, there are even nuns who claim such misconduct from priests so it isn’t age exclusive.

The scandals I am aware of are the ones which have been made public. And they are the child abuse scandals. If that’s not what you were referring to, then you could shed more light on the scandals you are referring to.
Whatever the case, I know that non-Catholics have been attacking the celibacy of the clergy but the Catholic church will never change its teaching on that. And those who hold the Catholic faith accept the church’s teaching on the celibacy of the clergy.

What does that have to do with anything? Just cuz I don’t treat God as either a genie or some puppeteer you now irrelevantly question my faith or something? With all due respect, I’m insulted. No red herrings please. Stick to the topic.

It has do with what you have been saying. I would like to know if it’s worth quoting bible passages and the church teachings about finding joy in Lord, true happiness, something the church teaches on. God alone satisfies.

But it seems as if you don’t want to accept it. It’s church teaching and…

Sorry, I mean no offence. I don’t know why you feel insulted. I wish I could frame the question better. I know there are some Catholics who choose what to believe and not. But I very well know that, it’s either we believe in everything (100%) or not. I don’t know where you really stand on this, that is why I asked that question. But if you found it offensive, then I can only tell you that I meant no offence.

 

[kelvinf]

I am somewhat offended as well.

I meant no offence.

People sin, but it’s not due to “it wasn’t meant to be.” People divorce (in the case of marriage) or abuse children (in the case of priests) because they have the mark of sin.

Right, the effects of original sin affects of all of us.
Pedophiles can’t be priests. Unfortunately, the Church cannot really sort out those who are pedophiles until there is an incident. If I understand the new measures the church is taking, abusive priests will be defrocked. And as I said, pedophiles can’t be priests and for those who happen to have sneaked through, they weren’t meant to be there in the first place.

Divorce is also a grievous sin. Similarly, if the Church could know those who were going to divorce their spouses, then the church wouldn’t celebrate the sacrament of matrimony with them.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

The scandals I am aware of are the ones which have been made public. And they are the child abuse scandals. If that’s not what you were referring to, then you could shed more light on the scandals you are referring to.
Whatever the case, I know that non-Catholics have been attacking the celibacy of the clergy but the Catholic church will never change its teaching on that. And those who hold the Catholic faith accept the church’s teaching on the celibacy of the clergy.

Wrong again. Do you research. Most of the victims weren’t children but teenagers. That’s not pedophilia. It may fall under abusing a minor but it’s no longer child abuse. People however, use those as an argument against priestly celibacy.

It has do with what you have been saying. I would like to know if it’s worth quoting bible passages and the church teachings about finding joy in Lord, true happiness, something the church teaches on. God alone satisfies.

But it seems as if you don’t want to accept it. It’s church teaching and…

Cite a Catechism passage please. An emotional reliance on spirituality and piety is no more a stable foundation than an emotional reliance on a person. There is more to religious life than mere feelings of religious high.

 

[kelvinf]

Wrong again. Do you research. Most of the victims weren’t children but teenagers. That’s not pedophilia. It may fall under abusing a minor but it’s no longer child abuse.

I should be the one asking you that question. After what the media has done, who does not know of child abuse scandals in the Catholic Church?

References:
Ireland
PASTORAL LETTER OF THE HOLY FATHER POPE BENEDICT XVI TO THE CATHOLICS OF IRELAND

…I have been deeply disturbed by the information which has come to light regarding the abuse of children and vulnerable young people by members of the Church in Ireland…
…Church in Ireland must first acknowledge before the Lord and before others the serious sins committed against defenceless children…
…must lead to a concerted effort to ensure the protection of children from similar crimes in the future… etc.

USA (I actually copied this link from CAF)

…Aboard the papal plane, the pontiff said he is “deeply ashamed” of the scandal and assured Catholics that seminaries will not tolerate pedophiles…

Germany
Top Catholic bishop apologises for child abuse scandal

Robert Zollitsch, the head of the German Bishop’s Conference (DBK), made a formal apology on Monday to the victims of widespread child abuse at Catholic schools and said there would be consequences.

Is this debate worth it?

People however, use those as an argument against priestly celibacy.

I don’t know why you keep referring to this. And I guess if I ask your stand on this, you might also consider it offensive.
Anyway, if you happen to meet those people, simply tell them that there are a lot of things about the celibacy of the clergy which they don’t understand and that the Catholic Church will never change its teaching on that.

Cite a Catechism passage please. An emotional reliance on spirituality and piety is no more a stable foundation than an emotional reliance on a person. There is more to religious life than mere feelings of religious high.

You don’t seem to accept that there were actually child abuse scandals (something the media helped to make very popular). I wonder whether citing CCC articles and further bible passages on the issue of finding joy and true happiness in the Lord would change anything?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I should be the one asking you that question. After what the media has done, who does not know of child abuse scandals in the Catholic Church?

Here’s a quote from a Catholic League article disproving that we have a “pedophile problem”.

The findings of the National Review Board, appointed by the bishops to gather data on the problem of priestly sexual molestation, and the John Jay Report on this subject, conclusively said that most of the victims (81 percent) were male, and most of them were postpubescent. The National Review Board didn’t mince words: 'we must call attention to the homosexual behavior that characterized the vast majority of cases of abuse observed in recent decades.

And for balance, here’s an additional quote from Catholic Answers itself.

In significant ways the media’s coverage of the scandal has been misleading or inaccurate. For example, the media reported the scandal almost exclusively in terms of “pedophile priests.” This is not correct.

According to the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders-IV, pedophilia is sexual attraction to children who have not yet arrived at puberty (DSM-IV, 528). While there have been priests who were pedophiles, the overwhelming majority of cases involved a disorder called ephebophilia, a term that refers to sexual attraction to minors who have arrived at puberty (i.e., teenagers). But we shouldn’t give a false emphasis to the clinical term ephebophilia, because it masks the real nature of what is occurring: priestly homosexual activity with under-aged males.

Is this debate worth it?

Actually you’re the only one making this into a red herring. Do you have a problem with the fact that some priests became weak because of they depended too much on this “joy in the Lord” that you speak of?

I don’t know why you keep referring to this. And I guess if I ask your stand on this, you might also consider it offensive.
Anyway, if you happen to meet those people, simply tell them that there are a lot of things about the celibacy of the clergy which they don’t understand and that the Catholic Church will never change its teaching on that.

You don’t seem to accept that there were actually child abuse scandals (something the media helped to make very popular). I wonder whether citing CCC articles and further bible passages on the issue of finding joy and true happiness in the Lord would change anything?

Again, you seem to be confused that I am advocating the argument that priestly celibacy causes scandal. I do not. What I do see though, is that you take discomfort in the defense given against that argument. That defense is that emotional reliance on spiritual and religious life is no more a foundation of sand than emotional reliance on spouses. Vocations aren’t emotional crutches (at least not all the time). They are things that you have to be faithful and committed to, for better or worse. Whatever goes for religious single-hood in that department, goes the same for marriage and vice-versa.

Furthermore, you have failed to provide citations from the Catechism (or what I like to call the Big Catholic Rulebook) and instead toss another red herring upon red herring. This either means you’re bluffing or you don’t get the point. If faith was all about feelings of religious high, then it’s no stronger than a relationship based on romantic feelings.

 

[kelvinf]

…

PART ONE - THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION ONE: “I BELIEVE” - “WE BELIEVE”

CHAPTER ONE: MAN’S CAPACITY FOR GOD

I.The Desire for God

26 We begin our profession of faith by saying: “I believe” or “We believe”. Before expounding the Church’s faith, as confessed in the Creed, celebrated in the liturgy and lived in observance of God’s commandments and in prayer, we must first ask what “to believe” means…Thus we shall consider first that search…

27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:

30 "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, “an upright heart”, as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.

33 The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God’s existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the “seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material”, can have its origin only in God.

45 Man is made to live in communion with God in whom he finds happiness: When I am completely united to you, there will be no more sorrow or trials; entirely full of you, my life will be complete (St. Augustine, Conf. 10, 28, 39: PL 32, 795}

PART THREE - LIFE IN CHRIST

SECTION ONE: MAN’S VOCATION: LIFE IN THE SPIRIT

CHAPTER ONE: THE DIGNITY OF THE HUMAN PERSON

ARTICLE 2: OUR VOCATION TO BEATITUDE

II. THE DESIRE FOR HAPPINESS

1718 The Beatitudes respond to the natural desire for happiness. This desire is of divine origin: God has placed it in the human heart in order to draw man to the One who alone can fulfill it:
We all want to live happily; in the whole human race there is no one who does not assent to this proposition, even before it is fully articulated.
How is it, then, that I seek you, Lord? Since in seeking you, my God, I seek a happy life, let me seek you so that my soul may live, for my body draws life from my soul and my soul draws life from you. God alone satisfies.

Amen

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

1718 The Beatitudes respond to the natural desire for happiness. This desire is of divine origin: God has placed it in the human heart in order to draw man to the One who alone can fulfill it:
We all want to live happily; in the whole human race there is no one who does not assent to this proposition, even before it is fully articulated.
How is it, then, that I seek you, Lord? Since in seeking you, my God, I seek a happy life, let me seek you so that my soul may live, for my body draws life from my soul and my soul draws life from you. God alone satisfies.

And this equals using God as an emotional crutch… how? :ehh:

Apparently you need to read yourself, what it is you’re quoting.

30 "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness.** But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect**, a sound will, “an upright heart”, as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.

Does this make faith emotion-based? No. In fact, it shows to be more than that. You as a Catholic should know it.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Divorce is also a grievous sin. Similarly, if the Church could know those who were going to divorce their spouses, then the church wouldn’t celebrate the sacrament of matrimony with them.

You’re thouroughly confused. I think further study in free will and the Sacraments is needed.

People make a choice to believe in God and partake in the Sacraments. If we took that choice out of the equation, Without that choice, it would render our faith and the Sacraments meaningless.

Whether one decides to go into religious life or married life, the Church encourages proper discernment, study and prayer. This is so people can make the proper decisions and the Church can vet those who are not prepared for the Sacrament.

Sin is also a choice. Most people I know choose to divorce - they make a free choice to divorce, or they choose to partake in behavior that could lead to divorce.

To say, somehow, that it’s “not meant to be” is incorrect and plays down our free choice - to either love and serve the Lord or to sin. We can use that line to justify any bad behavior.

If we really took up the Lord’s commandments, there would be no divorce!

 

[ComputerGeek25]

It has do with what you have been saying. I would like to know if it’s worth quoting bible passages and the church teachings about finding joy in Lord, true happiness, something the church teaches on. God alone satisfies.

But it seems as if you don’t want to accept it. It’s church teaching and…

This thread probably falls into the grey area, of how specifically God can satisfy people. As far as I know, there is no definitive church teaching on the specifics of how God satisfies people, other than, as you state, God alone satisfies.

Sorry, I mean no offence. I don’t know why you feel insulted. I wish I could frame the question better. I know there are some Catholics who choose what to believe and not. But I very well know that, it’s either we believe in everything (100%) or not. I don’t know where you really stand on this, that is why I asked that question. But if you found it offensive, then I can only tell you that I meant no offence.

We take offense because there is most likely some latitude in beliefs about how God satisfies people and what is expected of us.

To be told that our view is flat out un-Catholic with circumstantial evidence, is offensive.

 

[kelvinf]

You’re thouroughly confused. I think further study in free will and the Sacraments is needed.

People make a choice to believe in God and partake in the Sacraments. If we took that choice out of the equation, Without that choice, it would render our faith and the Sacraments meaningless.

Whether one decides to go into religious life or married life, the Church encourages proper discernment, study and prayer. This is so people can make the proper decisions and the Church can vet those who are not prepared for the Sacrament.

Sin is also a choice. Most people I know choose to divorce - they make a free choice to divorce, or they choose to partake in behavior that could lead to divorce.

To say, somehow, that it’s “not meant to be” is incorrect and plays down our free choice - to either love and serve the Lord or to sin. We can use that line to justify any bad behavior.

If we really took up the Lord’s commandments, there would be no divorce!

CCC 2382: The Lord Jesus insisted on the original intention of the Creator who willed that marriage be indissoluble…

Divorce does not fall under God’s original plan. It wasn’t meant to be.
The contrary is that, it was meant to be, meaning it falls under God’s original plan which is not correct.

How you relate free will to God’s original plan is your concern.
I am more concerned about potential victims of divorce and how they could avoid falling into the hands of those who choose divorce.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Divorce does not fall under God’s original plan. It wasn’t meant to be.
The contrary is that, it was meant to be, meaning it falls under God’s original plan which is not correct.

How you relate free will to God’s original plan is your concern.
I am more concerned about potential victims of divorce and how they could avoid falling into the hands of those who choose divorce.

I still don’t think you understand. Divorce is a sin and a choice.

 

[crenfro]

So that’s what I would like to know (if it’s okay for people to be searching for a spouse. I don’t mean praying to God… but practical searching like online dating and stuff like that)

Hello.

Really don’t mean to sound silly but your post reminded me of the helicopter joke.

A guy’s house was caught in a flood so he prayed to God to rescue him. A little boat came by and offered him a lift, but the guy said “nope, I’m waiting for God to save me.”
The flood waters rose some more, almost covering the house, so the guy was on the roof by then, and a helicopter landed and asked the guy to get on board. “nope” the guy said. “I’m waiting for God to save me.”

Finally the flood waters swallowed up the house and the guy and the guy drowned. After going through the pearly gates the guy asked God why He didn’t help him during the flood. God told him “why darn. I sent a boat and a helicopter for you.”

Your post also reminded me of the proverb:

Pray to God but continue to row to shore.

anyway, for what it’s worth, my two cents.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Desertsailor]

In answer to the OP:

Pray to St. Raphel.

Finding a spouse online is a good thing. If someone in person asks you a question you have a few seconds to answer, but if someone online asks a question you can think about the answer for a day or two before answering. Be sure to give honest answers and ask honest questions. If you haven’t met someone face to face it’s easier to give complete and honest answers.

 

[Desertsailor]

Let me add: Online is good because the bigger the world gets the smaller your sphere of friends gets. You may know people at your Church, work, and neighborhood. Strangers won’t talk to you in person but they will online.

 

[kelvinf]

I still don’t think you understand. Divorce is a sin and a choice.

Right, man can choose to do good or evil and I have touched on free will before but you don’t seem to be getting my point. I am looking at it from the perspective of God’s original plan (whereas you seem to be looking at it only from the perspective of free will).
I have been trying to explain my use of “meant to be”. CCC clearly states God’s original plan regarding divorce. I guess this discussion started because of my “meant to be” statement and I have simply been trying to justify that statement.
How you reconcile God’s original plan with free will is more of what you are concerned about.
God has a plan. We are free to make choices. But making choices does not change God’s original plan/will. I don’t know if you get the point.

 

[kelvinf]

Post #137 mentions St. Raphael.

BTW, for those who haven’t read all my posts, post #116 clearly and nicely summarised what I would say is my opinion on how one can get to know his or her spouse.

Generally, Kelvinf, I agree with what I think you are implying: That a man should go through life following God’s will for him, pursuing interests, vocation (what it is, not who it is), education, career, friendship, etc. And this lifelong process will seem somewhat organic. And while doing the things he ought to do, he will become the man God has made him to be (otherwise, he oughtn’t have done them). In this natural progression of pursuits, he will meet many people, presumably half of them of the opposite sex. It is from these coincidental, or naturally-forming, relationships that he will meet someone to marry.

That’s my opinion, I wouldn’t actively engage in a specific process of searching for a spouse. There are examples in the bible.

1. Adam. He did not engage in spouse hunting. It was all God’s choice and decision.

I believe that things like books or teachings recommended for couples should actually also be recommended for would-be couples. (Just my opinion).

CCC 1611:

…The books of Ruth and Tobit bear moving witness to an elevated sense of marriage and to the fidelity and tenderness of spouses…

2. Ruth. She also did not engage in the process. She was simply doing her normal thing (working in the fields) and in the process, she got to know her spouse.

3. Tobiah in the book of Tobit.
In the NAB introduction, it is mentioned “at Raphael’s urging, Tobiah marries Sarah”. And going through the story, I would say Sarah was Raphael’s choice for Tobiah. It was Raphael who made the decision. Tobiah actually resisted because… but he was urged by angel Raphael. Interesting enough, the angel mentioned that "Your marriage to her has been decided in heaven!" (Tobit 7:11). (Have our marriages already been decided in heaven???)
Tobiah did not engage in the process of spouse hunting. He met his spouse via a direct revelation from heaven.

Those are my examples.

I am still very interested in knowing the origin of spouse hunting practiced by some today.