The Mormon Archeology Shuffle

[MelanieAnne]

First of all, we’re both Californians so drop the “y’all” LOL…sounds like Dallas talk to me! And I never said that us’allens are riddled with guilt, Catholic guilt is world famous and a common cliche. We were joking making little song diddies about different religions. You obviously have a very very serious sober personality that can’t let your hair down a little and laugh at a stereotype. Everyone else knew it was a stereotype and silly, light-hearted. Apparently you didn’t. Apologies if I stepped on your toes somehow. I will tell you right now that my perspective is that there is a super mega dose of Catholic guilt on this very forum day in, day out. People use guilt trips in here to folks who are non-Catholic or who have left Catholicism A LOT. It’s a real turn-off. I have had enough guilt trips directed at me just in the last week to kill a rhino.

I know you’re just “sayin’” (we’re folksy today like Sarah Palin! LOL) your experience. That’s fine and I respect that. I’m just not accustomed to this level of P.C.ness in here.

I’m actually VERY glad you like your parish. I wish I felt the same way about this parish and diocese as a whole. I can’t stand it. Honestly it has been a major stumbling block in me going back to Catholicism. My wife loathes it far more than me. The mere thought of going back to my Catholic parish makes me queezy. But truly, I’m glad you have a good experience. My chiropractor feels the same way about our diocese but he goes down to Orange County all the time with his in-laws and he swears up and down it’s the best parish he’s ever been to. I hear the same thing from folks in the midwest and back east. I’m envious. God bless.

Gosh, you know, not everything is “PC”. I just said the ditty didn’t square with my experience. Don’t get your knickers all in a twist!

This is NOT about not having a sense of humor, NOT about me not being able to “let my hair down” or anything else. I just said it wasn’t my experience, END OF STORY. Why do you need to keep making such a big deal out of it? SHEESH!

And yes, Orange County is a great diocese. My son & his family are in Rancho Santa Margarita and they have a great parish, I’m in Huntington Beach and have a great parish too, and everywhere I’ve been around the county has been a positive experience.

Ditto when I’ve gone elsewhere, away from home, such as when I went to a parish in Atlanta at the beginning of the month when I was there for my niece’s wedding (hence the “ya’lls”, it’s just part of me.) It was a great experience, where I met wonderful, warm people, even tho’ I was just there for Mass. Same thing when I’ve been in the greater Salt Lake area, where I’ve been to both regular parishes as well as the Cathedral (GORGEOUS!)

So it’s not like I was CRITICIZING your little rhyme, it just didn’t make sense to me. OK?

Moving on…

 

[Stephen168]

Ahistorical drivel?

yes

Give me a break.

no

I bet it’s funny when it’s not the Catholic Church though, right?

no

What is ahistorical about it?

The part you made up which does not reflect the actual events of history. Do your homework.

It was merely poking fun at a stereotype.

Your mother should have taught you that making fun of stereotypes is not funny because many stereotypes are not true. As I said, not true = not funny. Making fun of stereotypes can make you seem like an ignorant bigot.

Boy you hardcore Catholics, for largely being a bunch of no-nonsense republicans sure are P.C. and get your feelings hurt easily!

Is that another stereotype?

 

[twopekinguys]

Ok, back on track, everyone focus now…

I was on another discussion board today, and someone actually made a post with the hypothesis that the BoM actually took place in Italy. :whacky:

Part of their reasoning was that “continent” meant “earth”. :whacky:

That isn’t a shuffle, that is playing 52 card pick up

 

[MelanieAnne]

Ok, back on track, everyone focus now…

I was on another discussion board today, and someone actually made a post with the hypothesis that the BoM actually took place in Italy. :whacky:

Part of their reasoning was that “continent” meant “earth”. :whacky:

That isn’t a shuffle, that is playing 52 card pick up

So, when someone says “Is the Pope Catholic?” that might be a real question?

 

[LongJourney]

Ok, back on track, everyone focus now…

I was on another discussion board today, and someone actually made a post with the hypothesis that the BoM actually took place in Italy. :whacky:

Part of their reasoning was that “continent” meant “earth”. :whacky:

That isn’t a shuffle, that is playing 52 card pick up

No, 2peek. That is a satire of mopologetics. That poster is an exMo of the most hilarious type. You need to watch his posts better.

mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13858

 

[Returning_Home]

Boy you hardcore Catholics, for largely being a bunch of no-nonsense republicans sure are P.C. and get your feelings hurt easily! wow wee!

I personally loathe political correctness but there are certain levels here that we have to maintain because the mods are ready to shut a thread down when it gets too far off topic or unpleasant. I’m probably responsible for more than one being closed so now I try to be careful. I don’t make personal attacks when going after Mormonism; I simply present the facts and draw the appropriate conclusions.

I’m a Repub in registration only; I haven’t gotten around to resigning from the party and will probably wait until the 2012 Presidential candidates are made known because they’re almost sure to be as comical as the last group.

 

[twopekinguys]

No, 2peek. That is a satire of mopologetics. That poster is an exMo of the most hilarious type. You need to watch his posts better.

mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13858

I’m still new there, so I haven’t picked up all the little nuances yet.

It is quite entertaining though.

 

[Returning_Home]

No, 2peek. That is a satire of mopologetics. That poster is an exMo of the most hilarious type. You need to watch his posts better.

mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13858

I dunno. I read all of his posts and I think he’s a believing member…

There’s plenty to refute his claims since the church itself has clearly indicated that the BOM Lands are somewhere in the Americas, that the Hill Cumorah is in New York, and that the American Indians play into it. In addition, after reading John Lloyd Stephens’ work about Meso-America, Joseph Smith even pointed out specific sites that he clearly equated with BOM places.

 

[LongJourney]

the church itself has clearly indicated that the BOM Lands are somewhere in the Americas, that the Hill Cumorah is in New York, and that the American Indians play into it. In addition, after reading John Lloyd Stephens’ work about Meso-America, Joseph Smith even pointed out specific sites that he clearly equated with BOM places

And if one were to believe that what the LDS church says about the BoM is all lies, one is free to say that Joseph Smith and/or Sidney Rigdon and/or Solomon Spalding had Italy in mind when writing the book.

 

[Returning_Home]

And if one were to believe that what the LDS church says about the BoM is all lies, one is free to say that Joseph Smith and/or Sidney Rigdon and/or Solomon Spalding had Italy in mind when writing the book.

That wouldn’t make any sense for it to be in Italy (not that any of it happened at all) because if the basis for this assumption is the ‘narrow neck of land,’ we could easily assume the same about the peninsula of Florida, the strip of land around Boston harbor, any of the isthmuses in Rhode Island,or perhaps even the eastern part of Long Island.

But no, the history is clear that the events were supposed to have been in New England because the Hill Cumorah has been repeatedly demonstrated to be in New York, both in statements by church elders, their publications, and on church-printed maps. In fact, there’s no mention whatsoever about Meso-America until after Smith read John Lloyd Stephens’ book about the region, and that was 1842. Then he started to point out places that were probably this or that BOM site.

Since I’m not well versed on the Spaulding angle, I’ll concede that possible point, but the church members believed that the correct place for those events was their own area.

 

[Returning_Home]

The thread should’ve been called the Mormon Archaeology Hustle.

 

[zaffiroborant]

No, 2peek. That is a satire of mopologetics. That poster is an exMo of the most hilarious type. You need to watch his posts better.

mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13858

There’s a poster on MADB who’s always talking about words being bullseyes for the BoM, that is of course after you replace all the vowels with different ones, change the first (and maybe the last) letter to some other letter and maybe drop the middle consonant altogether. All these changes and suddenly you have a Hebrew name for say water and by golly there is water there in the BoM. Bullseye!!
So my favorite support for an Italian Peninsula location for the BoM is this:

There has been much speculation about “cureloms and cumoms” in the Book of Mormon.

And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.

Ether 9:19

Apologists trying to make the Book of Mormon fit a Mesoamerican model must try to make cureloms and cumoms fit their theory, as they do with specified animals like “horses” and “elephants” (i.e., that a horse is a tapir or some other animal in that region). The Italian model for the Book of Mormon does not suffer from this problem, and also offers additional compelling parallels to an ancient Italian setting.

The Latin word “carrus” means “vehicle.” Just say it out loud, and the similarity between “carrus” and “curelom” is clear. Thus, in describing animals useful to man, we find a word for vehicle, suggesting a beast of burden or an animal that pulled a vehicle of some kind—and carts, wagons, and chariots were all present in ancient Italy.

The Latin word “commodus” means “proper, fit…useful.” Notice the similarity between “commodus” and “cumom.” We find a word similar to the Latin for “useful” exactly where it should be: in a passage describing useful animals!

A careful reading of the Book of Mormon suggests that the words “curelom” and “cumom” were not describing what the animals were, but what they did. Since the Lord corrupted languages at the Tower of Babel, and the Jaredites had their language remain (per the prayers of the brother of Jared), it is not by any means a stretch to infer that Jaredite words were modified by their Latin-speaking neighbors and descendants.

As for the “om” ending on “curelom” and “cumom,” this also corresponds to the Latin suffix “-um,” which is the nominative form of Latin second declension neuter nouns. In Latin, nouns are either masculine, feminine, or neuter. The fact that “-um” is singular neuter is consistent with “curelom” and “cumom” being descriptive terms, not actual animal names. The actual name of an animal would be masculine; such as, for example, equus (horse) or asinus (), which both have a masculine ending. “Horse” and "" are both specifically translated in the Book of Mormon, whereas “curelom” and “cumom” are not, further suggesting that the latter two are neuter descriptive terms, rather than actual animal names. Notice also that the words are rendered “cureloms and cumoms,” further indicating that we are dealing with a singular neuter nominative word (as the ending “s” indicates plural in English writing).

“Vehicle” and “useful” fit the narrative of the Book of Ether perfectly, at the exact point where animals that are useful to man are being described. It is difficult to imagine Joseph Smith coming up with this coincidence on his own. Thus, we seem to have another bull’s eye for the Book of Mormon’s relationship with the land in which its people dwelt: the ancient Italian penninsula.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

There’s a poster on MADB who’s always talking about words being bullseyes for the BoM, that is of course after you replace all the vowels with different ones, change the first (and maybe the last) letter to some other letter and maybe drop the middle consonant altogether. All these changes and suddenly you have a Hebrew name for say water and by golly there is water there in the BoM. Bullseye!!
So my favorite support for an Italian Peninsula location for the BoM is this:

lol yes, i loved that part. It’s clear that he modeled this after actual MADB posters.

 

[LongJourney]

Think of all the Mormon-related threads that have been closed lately. The best counter-Mormon strategy is to start out with commonly-accepted truths, lead them to conclusions that are divergent in some way from standard Mormon beliefs, and, then, at the end, confront them with their “apostasy” That is the lesson of the “Italy” geography.

You don’t start out by alienating them, and setting yourself up as the enemy. They, as a people, function on a “victim” mentality. When you set yourself up as the enemy, they will disagree with everything you say, just on principle.

This is also the reason why many privately non-believing Mormons are staying active in their wards. When it is time to exit, they want to take out as many of their friends and relatives as they can. So don’t judge Mormons. Some are more honorable than you may be. Some understand self-sacrifice for the greater good than some of you do.

The strategies I have seen on Mormon-related threads at CAF lately do more harm than good.

Think about it.

 

[SirThomasMore]

the issue on this thread is how they try to avoid the issue of archeology asnd history by making it a faith argument. That is not a real argument and it allows them to be idignant because we are trying to overcome faith.

Archeology and history discussions are NOT faith. We can talk all day long with atheists about historical Jerusalem. We can talk with atheists all day long about archeological digs in the middle east. God need never be brought into the discussion, though we are discussing Biblical lands and perhaps some Biblical history.

Mormons realize that they are clinging to a thin thread…the only way for them to steer the discussion in a more favorable direction is to inject faith into it. We need to stay strong on the history and science aspects of this…it is one of their downfalls

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thirty-two (32) posts have been deleted from this thread and one has been edited as off topic and mocking.

Again, I point out that if you would not appreciate something being said about your own faith then you should not post something similar about someone else’s whether you agree with them or not.

Deal with your topic with charity and respect and civility or be dealt with by the Mod staff.
Very sincerely,

 

[SirThomasMore]

Thirty-two (32) posts have been deleted from this thread and one has been edited as off topic and mocking.

Again, I point out that if you would not appreciate something being said about your own faith then you should not post something similar about someone else’s whether you agree with them or not.

Deal with your topic with charity and respect and civility or be dealt with by the Mod staff.
Very sincerely,

is the Mod Staff anything like the Mod Squad?

 

[Returning_Home]

Think of all the Mormon-related threads that have been closed lately. The best counter-Mormon strategy is to start out with commonly-accepted truths, lead them to conclusions that are divergent in some way from standard Mormon beliefs, and, then, at the end, confront them with their “apostasy” That is the lesson of the “Italy” geography.

You don’t start out by alienating them, and setting yourself up as the enemy. They, as a people, function on a “victim” mentality. When you set yourself up as the enemy, they will disagree with everything you say, just on principle.

This is also the reason why many privately non-believing Mormons are staying active in their wards. When it is time to exit, they want to take out as many of their friends and relatives as they can. So don’t judge Mormons. Some are more honorable than you may be. Some understand self-sacrifice for the greater good than some of you do.

The strategies I have seen on Mormon-related threads at CAF lately do more harm than good.

Think about it.

And how do you recommend handling this situation?

 

[LongJourney]

I appreciate the Mods’ actions. Other than that, perhaps the more emotional posters here might do well in educating themselves, following in the examples of soren, STM, Paul DuPre, Rebecca, and some of our other illustrious posters. I cannot control what others do.

 

[Returning_Home]

I appreciate the Mods’ actions. Other than that, perhaps the more emotional posters here might do well in educating themselves, following in the examples of soren, STM, Paul DuPre, Rebecca, and some of our other illustrious posters. I cannot control what others do.

So you can accurately point out all of the problems here but have no solutions?