The Mormon Archeology Shuffle

[TikiTokiguy]

Since I’m not well versed on the Spaulding angle, I’ll concede that possible point, but the church members believed that the correct place for those events was their own area.

I like these videos on the Book of Mormon and Spaulding and the rest.

youtube.com/watch?v=utDU45lm210

 

[LongJourney]

So you can accurately point out all of the problems here but have no solutions?

Yes, I have a solution, but we will have to wait. I can’t post it here, since it is 550 pages long.

 

[Returning_Home]

Yes, I have a solution, but we will have to wait. I can’t post it here, since it is 550 pages long.

There’s no reason to post the entire BOM if we’re trying to refute its lies.

 

[Eliza10]

We’ll be fair and compose some ditties… You ordain a ton of permanent deacons cuz you don’t have any priests
That’s what Catholicism is all about!..

…You act a little Catholic with Calvinist undertones
That’s what Episcopalian is all about!
…and you eat lots of sourcrout
You talk about the “solas”…
That’s what Lutherans were all about!

:coffeeread: This might have been good to remove with the other 32.

 

[MelanieAnne]

:coffeeread: This might have been good to remove with the other 32.

Agreed!

 

[Eliza10]

…IF the Book of Mormon was simply a spiritual book of teachings, then yes, no evidence is needed and faith is all that is required.

Where the LDS argument fails is that the BM does NOT just purport to be a spritual book of teachings, but, rather, a history book that tells the history of a specific group of people…
The discussion is about the HISTORICAL aspects of the book. This has NOTHING to do with faith

…Mormons try to muddy water by bringing in faith as a red-herring. This is NOT about faith but about HISTORY. IF the Book is what it purports to be, then there WOULD be historical, geographical, archeological, and scientific evidence.

…Mormons always try to claim that no one knows for sure where the BM took place, so excavating is almost impossible. That is hollow because we DO where Cumorah is, and NO excavating has taken place. That tells me that the LDS Church KNOWS there is nothing to be found…

I just want to say this is another good thoughtful post.

…Do you really believe the LDs Church would, with millions, perhaps billions in tithes at stake, not to mention the perhaps millions who might become LDS, refuse to excavate if it was even remotely possible that they would find evidence?.

Yes, and millions of Mormon Baptisms, too - which is supposed to be the real point.

.

…The refusal to excavate Cumorah is a tacit admission that LDS leaders know that no evidence exists. That they know the BM is not true. And that they know the LDS Church is not the true Church.

This has got to be the truth.

 

[Eliza10]

…a young man who had just moved to Utah from central California. He told me that he used to be Catholic until the LDS missionaries came to his area and told him that he was part of the chosen people …
He told me that is why he converted - because there was archaeological proof.

I did not know what to say at the time so I said nothing, even though I was angry. I have felt so bad about not speaking up about the lack of archaeological evidence,…

That is what brings me to these LDS threads here at CAF. Since then, I have been extremely motivated to learn all I can about the Mormons so that I can know what to say in the future.

I think about that missed opportunity almost every day.

I admire your sensitive conscience and your determination to be ready to do it right next time.

 

[Eliza10]

Could you imagine the boon to the LDS church if they found artifacts of the the BoM wars in the Cumorah area? They would open a museum on the site, and every visitor’s center would have artifacts on display. They would sponsor a 2-hour TV special on the artifacts…

The missionaries would carry full-color pamplates with pictures of the artifacts with an historical blurb about each one. …

The number of convert baptisms would soar off the charts. The archaeology department at BYU would have a 5-year waiting list for new students. Mormons might actually even read the Book of Mormon…

This is all true too. This is an accurate portrayal of what would happen.

The only reason the LDS leadership does not sponsor an excavation of the area is that they know that there is nothing to find, because the BoM is a 19th-century work of fiction.

And this is a totally true conclusion.

 

[LongJourney]

There’s no reason to post the entire BOM if we’re trying to refute its lies.

LOL, no it takes almost 550 pages to track down what they plagiarized from, and the cultural context in which it was written. With extra notes on how Mormonism has adversely affected American society.

Have you read it? It is dreadful, until you get to Mosiah. That is where the Spalding material starts. They lost the original beginning of the book, and had to write something entirely different, when they could have just moved Ether to the front of the book. But they wanted to prove their racist and anti-Catholic bigotry.

 

[Eliza10]

If anyone is interested in the contradictory topic of Mormon archaeology, I suggest this book:

If anyone is interested in the contradictory topic of Mormon archaeology, I suggest this book: Quest For The Gold Plates by Stan Larson]

I read the reviews on this at Amazon. Some intersting quotes below are from Amazon reveiwers. I am calling the reviewers “Green” and Blue" to simplify things here. The first writer, “Blue”, writes::

**Thomas Ferguson was, according to Stan Larson, an earnest, if not zealous young lawyer who was determined to “prove” the authenticity of the Book of Mormon by virtue of archeology. … What he found during his Quest was that the evidence he was certain he could find turned out to be more problematic than he ever dreamed. So much so that he became convinced that it would never be found…indeed, COULD never be found. **

What rocked his faith was the dubious authenticity of the Book of Abraham… …
**… it could only have been a fiction from the mind of Joseph Smith. With this realization, coupled with the gross lack of ANY supportive archeological evidence, Ferguson concluded that the Book of Mormon was a similar fiction…the product of an imaginative genius, but probably not the divinely inspired and protected record that he had previously believed. **

There is the synopisis of the finidngs on the quest for the Gold Plates. But what does Ferguson do with this learning? This part is interesting. “Blue” continues:

The rest of the story is how Ferguson tried to walk a double life, living out the duration of his life as an active, though unusual member of the church, singing in the choir, attending the meetings and socials he chose to, for the purpose of maintaining some ties with the people and the “fraternity” he loved. He became convinced that religion is of itself a healthy exercise for a moral society, and he had concluded that the Mormon Church had as worthy a formula for good as any… So he maintained his affiliation, but not without certain sacrifices. …

I find it QUITE interesting that Ferguson remains Mormon after realizing its all a myth. Because I know of very intelligent, successful people that are Mormon, and wonder how they can remain believing in the myths. Perhaps “successful” is the key. Hard to give that up, particularly when your success is tied in with your church community. Reviewer “Green”, comments on the same thing:

Though Ferguson began his quest as a quest for truth, once he found the truth he quickly abandoned his earlier plans to disseminate it.
**… Though he believed the Book of Mormon is fiction, Ferguson simply found it impossible to let go the social fabric of his Mormon upbringing. He described the Mormon Church as a great fraternity, and a worthwhile organization in its own right. He seemed to find a measure of smugness in knowing that it is all a hoax, but not wanting to spoil the party for all the common people who find Mormonism so important in their lives. **

Wow. Ferguson finds Mormonism is in fact based on myths and not truths, and decided to remain Mormon anyway. This confirms what I have suspected - that many intelligent Moron higher-ups don’t believe what they are living.

Interesting is that “Blue” reviewer and “Green” reviewer have differing conclusions about Ferguson. Here’s “Blue’s” conclusions:
**To me, the most inspirational part of the story is the courage it requires to undertake an honest quest, and be changed by what you find regardless of how much it challenges what you had previously believed. That is an essential element in all human growth and development, and were it not for courageous men like Ferguson, (or Galileo, or Einstein, or Darwin, or others) who are willing to question their own beliefs and study objectively what they observe, then civilization would never advance. Thomas Stuart Ferguson is a shining and intriguing example of one who was willing to make the quest, regardless of the outcome. **

But “Green” concludes differently::

**In this regard I find myself completely at odds with Larson’s closing comment: **
**“His [Ferguson’s] legacy is a commitment to the search for truth.” **

No statement could be more inaccurate. In the end, Ferguson showed that his commitment is to fraternity and brotherhood. He saw the truth, but found himself unable to proclaim it. Ferguson is simply another of a long list of men who had the opportunity to speak out and be heard - who could have made a difference by standing up for truth, but decided instead to keep a secret rather than upset his life and disillusion the common folk. For me, Ferguson represents a tragedy.

Wow. That is what stands out to me. "He saw the truth, but found himself unable to proclaim it."

I guess underscores what bothers me a lot about this whole “Mormon Archeological Shuffle”. First, what is to me obvious is that anyone who couples an inquiring mind of average intelligence with an honest search for truth* will always conclude the obvious: The Book of Mormon, which the Mormon religion holds as the basis of their religion, is a MYTH.

Because there are intelligent persons who certainly seem honest and moral running the Mormon show, it seems many of these or at least some of these must know its a myth. This is what Sir Thomas More has been saying here, too. At least SOME must know this.

I have more personal comment on this, so will continue on the next post.

 

[Eliza10]

(Continued from previous post)

*And I must say there are those, some of whom are represented here in these Mormon discussions here in this forum, whom I believe posesss inquiring minds of average intelligence (or more than average) who lack an honest search for truth. That is my honest opinion. They lack the courage of Ferguson! Ferguson, to his credit, simply wanted to know the truth.

And so I wonder if some others, such as some of those in these discussions, DO NOT WANT TO KNOW, because they do NOT want to threaten the loss of beloved social relationships, family and personal identity - possibly also they are second, third and fourth generation Mormons and “darned proud of it”!

For *that *motivation (the motivation of preserving one’s own identity and place in life), and for Ferguson’s weakness when he found the truth and was too cowardly to proclaim it and to act on it, I see a weakness of character that makes me, in my heart, be tempted to lack Christian charity.

And this annoyance with the lack of character, which is my annoyance with the love of religion more than truth - and God is truth; therefore, I call it love of religon, or love religious community, or love of religious or personal identity more than God - has a root in my own personal experience.

Because I am a convert who, upon stumbling upon the truth I was dearly hoping wasn’t truth - that the Catholic Church (which as a social institution or social identity held NO appeal to me) is what She says She is - the True Church founded by Jesus Christ - the* Fullness of Truth* – I myself had to choose to leave my beloved identity - that of a Jesus-alone and Bible-alone Christian faith, and a cherished faith community, and a Protestant heritage of many, many generations on both sides of my family - (MANY generations, not just two or three!).

Though the choice to turn my back on all that for truth was hard, I never once doubted what was the right choice, and was therefore the only choice to make. Truth trumps evreything. It seemed to me obvious truth that God is worth all, more than than brother, sister, church community, social identity, social standing, human recognition, everything.

(I also thank God for the gift of faith, that what seemed like a desert ahead would not be so, as my evangelically-nursed faith told me that “God is not mocked” and following His truth could only be good for me, even when it seemed in my eyes otherwise.)

However I do not think I am special or holy for knowing that God and truth is the only choice, when choice is to be made, and I wonder what people are thinking when they don’t make that choice?? What is lacking???

I guess I can only conclude that I must have recieved a grace they didn’t receive. And since I received a Grace that trumps all other Graces - that is, the Grace to be Catholic, which is God’s ordinary way of pouring out the most extrodinary Graces available to Man - I must, from my undeserved riches, pray for those who have not yet received this grace.

 

[Eliza10]

…Have you read it? It is dreadful, until you get to Mosiah. That is where the Spalding material starts. …

I found reading it dreadful also. :yawn: So dreadful I cringe at being asked if I would “read it prayerfully”. I normally like to read, but this was SO BORING. I skimmed it and felt satisfied I knew its contents. However I don’t remeber it got easier to read at Mosiah. Thats good to know.

 

[Eliza10]

… one of my Mormon friends took me to a program years ago at the local “Stake Center” (so glad I finally found out the right spelling, for years I thought it was a “Steak Center” and I didn’t understand how expensive beef fit into the whole Mormon thing!)
.

 

[Eliza10]

I appreciate the Mods’ actions. Other than that, perhaps the more emotional posters here might do well in educating themselves, following in the examples of soren, STM, Paul DuPre, Rebecca, and some of our other illustrious posters. I cannot control what others do.

Well, I must be an emotional poster since so many of mine have disappeared. I have truly endeavored to be logical and charitable, yet I never know if my words will be aborted when I return to the forum. Its confusing, like reading a huge book and you keep losing your place, so you start reading again not knowing for sure if you are in the right place and if you missed important facts by starting in the wrong place.

I am really trying to be charitable when I post, however, it seems to me (I could be wrong) as though discussion on certain Mormon truths are taboo here, which makes no sense to me. Truth is truth, it seems to me, and truth sets you free.

For example, I am confused if relating Mormon-approved historical facts about Joseph Smith’s polygamy is taboo here, or, if just getting “emotional” about those facts is taboo. The threads disappear before I can figure that one out. Since the entire discussion disappears, I can’t go back and re-read to figure it out.

However, if the phenomena, as far as it relates to me, is due to the “emotional” part of my posts, I think I explained myself, above in post #39, about where and why I sometimes feel a lack of Christian charity in myself related to the Mormon topic. (Maybe evidence of that lack of charity is why they get delated.)

And I will look to those posters you mention here for guidance, if you are saying their words don’t get removed here.

 

[LongJourney]

Forgiveness was very difficult for me. When I discovered that Mormons were prejudiced against me because a) of the fact that I am Catholic b) I have Native ancestry c) one of my ancestors participated in the attack on the Carthage jail, I was very angry. Since then, I have discovered that they have been fed these lies all their lives. Since their faith is based on feelings, they experience depression and anxiety when they encounter information that is counter to what everyone whom they respect has told them. They are very tuned into these feelings, because they call them the “Holy Spirit” If they deny this information, it puts them in a comfortable zone again. If they believe that I was BORN anti-Mormon, it helps them be comfortable with themselves in their denying my rights.

The anxiety they feel when confronted with information that is contrary to their beliefs is very similar to the anxiety that I felt, when contemplating the possibility that many Mormons are bigoted against me because of who I am. I had to allow myself to feel that anxiety, until I could begin to feel anything more than anxiety and depression. Then the anger came.

I can forgive them, because they cannot help it. They have been programmed this way from earliest childhood. I can therefore forgive, understanding why they think the way they do. However, this does not lower my healthy defenses, because I have not forgotten. I now have the knowledge with which to defend myself, should it again become necessary.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I read the reviews on this at Amazon. Some intersting quotes below are from Amazon reveiwers. I am calling the reviewers “Green” and Blue" to simplify things here.

(edited for space)

This is interesting. It would appear that Ferguson thought that his affiliation with Mormonism was more like a social club than a religion.

I submit that many Mormons also WANT their faith to be true. But then, the same could be said for me. I definitely want my Catholic faith to be the truth. Fortunately, there is a wealth of evidence to support the truthfulness of the Catholic faith.

I haven’t read the book in question, so I don’t know when Ferguson lived, but I have read accounts of people (not always published in books, but elsewhere, including internet blogs) who began to question various aspects of the Mormon faith, and as they inquired further, they developed even more questions and ultimately began to doubt the Mormon faith. Their questioning was not welcomed by church hierarchy, but instead was discouraged, and this often led to the person leaving the Mormon faith.

I agree with you that I could not stay in a faith that I came to conclude was based on a myth. To me it would be like living a lie. So no matter how important the social or other ties might be, once I came to believe that a faith is based on a myth, I would have to leave that faith. I may not write a book about it, or even discuss it with my friends that remained in the faith I left. But I would have to go, I wouldn’t be able to do as Ferguson did.

As to whether the hierarchy of the Mormon faith advocate one thing but believe another, that’s very hard to say. It’s interesting speculation, but something we will never know, at least not in this lifetime. One thing I can say for sure, assuming the Catholic faith is true and the Mormon faith is not, I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes when such persons come before the Lord to account for their life.

 

[MelanieAnne]

LOL, no it takes almost 550 pages to track down what they plagiarized from, and the cultural context in which it was written. With extra notes on how Mormonism has adversely affected American society.

Have you read it? It is dreadful, until you get to Mosiah. That is where the Spalding material starts. They lost the original beginning of the book, and had to write something entirely different, when they could have just moved Ether to the front of the book. But they wanted to prove their racist and anti-Catholic bigotry.

This is interesting. Is it possible for you to summarize the points made?

 

[LongJourney]

This is interesting. It would appear that Ferguson thought that his affiliation with Mormonism was more like a social club than a religion.

There are MANY like that. Don’t judge a person by their religion. The sacrifices of leaving, and the advantages of working from within to change make it a very understandable decision.

 

[MelanieAnne]

There are MANY like that. Don’t judge a person by their religion. The sacrifices of leaving, and the advantages of working from within to change make it a very understandable decision.

I agree. It’s a personal choice. I couldn’t do that. But that doesn’t mean that what is right for me will also be right for someone else.

It should always be a matter of personal choice. It shouldn’t be a choice imposed by anyone else, of course, but as long as it is a personal choice, then it’s not up to the rest of us to judge.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

We’ll be fair and compose some ditties for the Catholics and Anglicans:

You put some guilt in, invent some indulgences now,
Tell the people they’re not innovations and you shake the guilt around
You ordain a ton of permanent deacons cuz you don’t have any priests
That’s what Catholicism is all about!

You put a gutless archbishop of Canterbury in,
You put an arch-feminist former marine biologist around
You sue conservatives for leavin’ and ordaining gays abounds
You act a little Catholic with Calvinist undertones
That’s what Episcopalian is all about!

What the heck…the Lutherans!

You put one angry overly-scrupulous German in,
You burn papal bulls and shout
You mock the pope and sola scriptura
and you eat lots of sourcrout
You talk about the “solas” and you break off from the Church
That’s what Lutherans were all about!

Hilarious - did you make this poem up yourself? I assume it’s to the tune of HokeyPokey?