The Mormon boys came to my door...

[hosemonkey]

Kolob and spirit babies do not exist. This is the fanciful imagination of Joseph Smith at work and millions of people have been led into this deception. These beliefs deserve to be questioned. Period.

Referring to the Inquisition is just as much an attack on the Catholic Church as would be referring to priests as pedophiles.
It’s a cliche attack on Catholicism, not an intellectual argument.

I’m not “going after” his personal faith, I’m questioning tenets of his theology that are disturbing and incompatible with Christian teaching.

This expression “call you on the carpet” or “calling you out” (as you have used in the past) is Jerry Springer talk. What I’m referring to your public personal attacks on me. I would not characterize them as “calling one out”. If you felt that my exchanges with Zerinus were rude, I would have had much more respect for your opinion if you would have sent me a PM. Further, you have in no way illustrated how I have not used Catholic teaching. You simply have deemed me rude.

But take this Catholic apologetic work found in the Catholic Answers library:

“The Wacky World of Joseph Smith And the un-Christianity of Mormon Theology” By Fr. Brian Harrison

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305fea4.asp

Do you find this title to be rude? It’s written by a Catholic priest. What you perceive as rude, I perceive as honest.

You still haven’t clarified how I have gone against the teaching of the Church. Just a point to note, I don’t believe Mormons fall under the category of “separated brethren”, as they are not Christian. Certainly, they fall under the category of fellow man, but “separated brethren” refers specifically to Christians.

See here:

**Q: I read recently that the Catholic Church had rejected Mormon baptism, since their view of Christ and the Trinity is so unusual. But I have to ask: Are Mormons considered separated brothers and sisters? While their views are strange to say the least, they are still separated, and we should reach out to them. If we view them as something other than separated, doesn’t that exclude ecumenism? I know that many view them as a cult, but aren’t cult members separated as well? **

A: The reason Mormons are not considered separated brethren is not because they aren’t “separated” from the Church-they are-but they aren’t “brethren” in the sense required.

The phrase *separated brethren *refers to those who, though separated from full communion with the Catholic Church, have been justified through baptism and are thus brethren in Christ. The Decree on Ecumenism (Unitatis Redintegratio) of Vatican II teaches that “all who have been justified by faith in baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.”

Because Mormonism is polytheistic and rejects the Trinity, Mormon baptism is not valid, and Mormons are not considered separated brethren. For the same reason, outreach to them, while certainly a good thing, is not ecumenism, though it can include dialogue and social cooperation as well as efforts to evangelize them.

catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0210qq.asp

Yes, I have. That’s correct.

Good post. Zerinus says that we have “lost the argument” against LDS. In fact, there is no argument FOR LDS. All I have heard from most mormons on these forums is “burning in the bosom”, “pray about it”, “listen to the (mormon) Holy Spirt”, and similar evasions and non-truths. No solid justification or reasoning for a whole bunch of non-Christian and non-Scriptural beliefs. Most of these beliefs springing from the fertile imagination of Joe Smith. It all hangs on the mormon belief that Joe Smith was a prophet. He WAS a prophet. A false prophet, one that Scripture warns us about.

 

[Eden]

He WAS a prophet. A false prophet, one that Scripture warns us about.

Undeniably true. Maybe anamchara can explain why it got their hackles up for me to quote passages from Sacred Scripture warning about false prophets earlier.

 

[hosemonkey]

Undeniably true. Maybe anamchara can explain why it got their hackles up for me to quote passages from Sacred Scripture warning about false prophets earlier.

Dunno. I had the impression that that poster had a squishy liberal feel. PC does not go far with me, one of the spiritual works of mercy is to “Instruct the ignorant”, I regard exposing mormon abberations as “Instructing the ignorant.”

 

[Lehl]

The reason why they act in this way is because they have lost the argument against LDS. If they had any valid arguments to bring against LDS, they would. It is a tacit admission of defeat. They don’t have a valid argument to bring against LDS, so they resort to playground bullying tactics in the hope of wining the day. But it never works. It always rebounds back on them. Sad!

zerinus

ROFL!

Zerinus, how can we lose an argument when you refuse to participate in the “meat” of it?

Evading direct questions and attempting to distract (monkey avatars anyone?) is your only game play here. It is classic Mormon Apologetics 101.

Talk about sad!

 

[Eden]

Dunno. I had the impression that that poster had a squishy liberal feel. PC does not go far with me, one of the spiritual works of mercy is to “Instruct the ignorant”, I regard exposing mormon abberations as “Instructing the ignorant.”

Agreed.

I wonder if amanchara can explain why they attacked me for “not using Catholic teaching”, but then referred to Mormons as “separated brethren” (which is not Catholic teaching).

 

[Lehl]

The Mormon religion appears to be designed to appeal to the male ego. I see nothing in it for women. They seem to prefer men and younger boys in their evangelization.

A personal relationship with God who is intimately involved with each and every detail of our life is so much more appealing in every way over this hodge podge that is Mormonism. I cannot see what anyone, save an egotistical male, sees in it. Can anyone explain?

You got me.

Especially since her salvation as a woman is dependent on her husband!

"LDS Apostle Erastus Snow preached the following on Sunday, Oct. 4, 1857:
Do the women, when they pray, remember their husbands?... Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord? "What!—my husband to be my lord?" **I ask, Can you get into the celestial kingdom without him? Have any of you been there? You will remember that you never got into the celestial kingdom [during the temple ceremony] without the aid of your husband. If you did, it was because your husband was away, and some one had to act proxy for him. No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant.** (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 291)"

 

[hosemonkey]

You got me.

Especially since her salvation as a woman is dependent on her husband!

"LDS Apostle Erastus Snow preached the following on Sunday, Oct. 4, 1857:

Do the women, when they pray, remember their husbands?... Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord? "What!—my husband to be my lord?" **I ask, Can you get into the celestial kingdom without him? Have any of you been there? You will remember that you never got into the celestial kingdom [during the temple ceremony] without the aid of your husband. If you did, it was because your husband was away, and some one had to act proxy for him. No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant.** (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 291)"

Yep! That sounds very much like the description of the moslem “heaven” found on another thread. Looks like females are doomed to be just breeders or servants for all eternity. Don’t mormon women have a clue?

 

[Lehl]

Yep! That sounds very much like the description of the moslem “heaven” found on another thread. Looks like females are doomed to be just breeders or servants for all eternity. Don’t mormon women have a clue?

Celestial polygamy IS something that does seem to upset many LDS women.

They try so hard to distance themselves from the polygamists here on earth…then to turn around and HAVE to accept it in their idea of heaven?

Wow.

 

[Philothea53]

Christianity is apostate. Mormonism is true.

zerinus

How can Christianity be apostate when Jesus Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church?

 

[Philothea53]

I think it is fair to say that there have always been Christians who apostasized from the faith.

There have also been Mormons who did the same from the Mormon faith.

We know these things from history.

I’m thinking here that Zerinus doesn’t mean the same thing when he says that Christianity is “apostate” as he would mean by saying that the LDS is “apostate.”

I’m absolutely sure that Mormons believe the Church was GONE from the earth until Joe Smith restored it.

 

[Philothea53]

I think it is fair to say that there have always been Christians who apostasized from the faith.

There have also been Mormons who did the same from the Mormon faith.

We know these things from history.

I’m thinking here that Zerinus doesn’t mean the same thing when he says that Christianity is “apostate” as he would mean by saying that the LDS is “apostate.”

I’m absolutely sure that Mormons believe the Church was GONE from the earth until Joe Smith restored it.

 

[Philothea53]

I don’t mean to speak for Zerinus, but from past conversations with him, I’ve learned that when he says Christianity is apostate, he doesn’t mean that all Christians have renounced the faith, which is what the word implies. What he means (and Z, correct me where I’m wrong) is that the authority of the Catholic Church was taken away. There is no valid priesthood. There are and always have been true Christians, but no priesthood. Now, how Mormons understand that there could be real Christians without the authority of Jesus active on Earth is beyond me, but I gather that this is what they believe.

Mormons believe that the Church was G O N E from the earth until it was restored by Joe Smith. Jesus Christ siad the gates of hell would not prevail AGAINST His Church but somehow something happened anyway cause Joe had to restore it. That is part and parcel of their supposed authority - Jesus lied?

 

[Lehl]

I’m absolutely sure that Mormons believe the Church was GONE from the earth until Joe Smith restored it.

I’ve often read how one of the major indications or sometimes the very definition of this supposed “apostasy” occured was when the last apostle died.

Yeah…but Mormons also interpret that the APOSTLE JOHN is STILL wandering the earth…tarrying. So if this apostle never died…there was no apostasy by their own definition

:banghead:

 

[Lehl]

Mormons believe that the Church was G O N E from the earth until it was restored by Joe Smith. Jesus Christ siad the gates of hell would not prevail AGAINST His Church but somehow something happened anyway cause Joe had to restore it. That is part and parcel of their supposed authority - Jesus lied?

Or was totally incompetent.

 

[Philothea53]

It is my understanding of LDS doctrine—which is as good as anybody else’s. I did not copy it from another source, if that is what you are asking.

In every religion there areas of theology that are controversial, about which it is possible to have more than one opinion. My understanding of LDS doctrine is that premeditated murder is unpardonable (see D&C 42:79). Others may justifiably disagree. Bear in mind that there are different kinds of murder. Not all murders are of equal severity in the sight of God. Maybe that is what they have in mind.

You would have to ask that question from the author of that article. I am not responsible for what other people write, nor feel obliged to defend or explain them, nor am I bound by what they have said. I derive my understanding of LDS doctrine directly from the standard works of the LDS Church; and that is the only source of LDS theology and doctrine that I would feel obliged to defend or explain.

zerinus

What is the Mormon feeling about abortion? Is it murder?

 

[Lehl]

What is the Mormon feeling about abortion? Is it murder?

Only in some very subjective instances.

"In a general conference address given in October of 1998, LDS President Gordon Hinckley took the opportunity to speak on the LDS Church’s position on abortion. While recognizing that abortion is an “ugly thing” that causes “remorse, sorrow and regret,” President Hinckley went on to say, **"While we denounce it, we make allowance in such circumstances as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have serious defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

President Hinckley said those who face such a question should “pray in great earnestness, receiving a confirmation through prayer before proceeding.” **

Straight from the “prophet’s” mouth.

Funny that a church who’s self-proclaimed great claim to fame is continuing revelation but HAS no revelation on when life begins.

“Fact: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has no official position on the moment that human life begins. Further, the Church has not taken a position on the issue of embryonic stem-cell research.”

[=“http://www.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=42bb39628b88f010VgnVCM100000176f620aRCRD&vgnextchannel=f5f411154963d010VgnVCM1000004e94610aRCRD"]](="http://www.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=42bb39628b88f010VgnVCM100000176f620aRCRD&vgnextchannel=f5f411154963d010VgnVCM1000004e94610aRCRD”])

 

[Lehl]

I’ve often read how one of the major indications or sometimes the very definition of this supposed “apostasy” occured was when the last apostle died.

Yeah…but Mormons also interpret that the APOSTLE JOHN is STILL wandering the earth…tarrying. So if this apostle never died…there was no apostasy by their own definition

:banghead:

Just adding the link from the LDS Church’s website citing the definition of the “Great Apostasy”

Following the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted and killed many Church members, and other Church members drifted from the principles taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles. **The Apostles were killed and the priesthood authority—including the keys to direct and receive revelation
—was taken from the earth ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3). **Because the Church was no longer led by priesthood authority and revelation, error crept into Church teachings. Good people and much truth remained, but the gospel as established by Jesus Christ was lost, resulting in a period called the Great Apostasy.

mormon.org/mormonorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=b4f4055b23710110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=39226db0580a1110VgnVCM100000176f620a____

 

[Philothea53]

Just adding the link from the LDS Church’s website citing the definition of the “Great Apostasy”
/{QUOTE]

So according to them Jesus was worng or lying or …

 

[Lehl]

Just adding the link from the LDS Church’s website citing the definition of the “Great Apostasy”

mormon.org/mormonorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=b4f4055b23710110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=39226db0580a1110VgnVCM100000176f620a____

Also adding the Doctrine and Covenants 7 the “revelation” given to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdry when they inquired of their “magic rocks” whether John the Apostle tarried IN THE FLESH or had died.

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829, when they inquired through the Urim and Thummim as to whether John, the beloved disciple, tarried in the flesh or had died. The revelation is a translated version of the record made on parchment by John and hidden up by himself. HC 1: 35–36.
**1–3, John the Beloved shall live until the Lord comes; 4–8, Peter, James, and John hold gospel keys. ** 1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my abeloved, what bdesirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me apower over bdeath, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt atarry until I come in my bglory, and shalt cprophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring asouls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my bkingdom.
5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater awork yet among men than what he has before done.
6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a aministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be bheirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.
7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will agive this power and the bkeys of this ministry until I come.
8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both ajoy in that which ye have desired.

scriptures.lds.org/dc/7

Therefore it is clear the Mormons have a very GRAVE contradiction.

The Great Apostasy is defined as “The Apostles were killed and the priesthood authority—including the keys to direct and receive
revelation—was taken from the earth.”

However, in one of their standard works is a revelation given directly to Joseph Smith that John the Beloved shall live until the Lord comes and that Peter, James, AND JOHN hold gospel keys.

So John is still on earth and has ALWAYS had the “keys” and the Mormon all-important “authority”.

There clearly was no “Great Apostasy” even by Mormons’ own definitions.

 

[Philothea53]

Yep! That sounds very much like the description of the moslem “heaven” found on another thread. Looks like females are doomed to be just breeders or servants for all eternity. Don’t mormon women have a clue?

Actually Joe’s wife, Emma, was pretty powerful. Joe and some of the others were meeting at the Smith’s and Emma complained about it to Joe. So Joe prayed about it and got a revelation that smoking is bad for you. Boy, it is who you know, isn’t it? There’s a similar reason why hot drinks are forbidden. The word among the female faithful is that Emma just got sick and tired of making coffee and tea for all those meetings of the Bishopric. :coffeeread:

That lady wielded some power. :tsktsk: