The Mormon Church and Dissent

[why_me]

The new testament cautions the church to be of one heart and one mind. This is why the lds church frowns on dissent.

Philippians 2:2

New International Version (©1984)
then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Then make me truly happy by agreeing wholeheartedly with each other, loving one another, and working together with one mind and purpose.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.

International Standard Version (©2008)
then fill me with joy by having the same attitude, sharing the same love, being united in spirit, and keeping one purpose in mind.

GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Then fill me with joy by having the same attitude and the same love, living in harmony, and keeping one purpose in mind.

King James Bible
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

American King James Version
Fulfill you my joy, that you be like minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

American Standard Version
make full my joy, that ye be of the same mind, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind;

Bible in Basic English
Make my joy complete by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in harmony and of one mind;

Douay-Rheims Bible
Fulfil ye my joy, that you may be of one mind, having the same charity, being of one accord, agreeing in sentiment.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Latin rite is the only one requiring celibacy. The teaching authority of the Church comes from Rome, and it is also a charism of the Holy Spirit…In other words, when statements were finally clarified, inspite of outward appearances of given ages, the primacy of Rome has always been there.

Yes, celibacy was an option then. If a man has a calling to become a priest, but would like to marry, he can look at the Orthodox.

There was alot of abuse and infidelity and the issue of taking lay people’s monetary support and using it for priests’ families…that would end up getting more than the the families themselves lived on…as well as supporting illegitimate children. Married priests then had affairs…

You should read the Dialogues of St. Catherine, and especially the use of hyperbole in her writings on ‘The Church’…she addressed priests who were vowed celibate sleeping with women, the pedophiles, and how demons inspired clerics to do acts against nature, and then come to offer Mass the next day…as a stench up to heaven…’…the act of the sin as so the demons themselves could not witness it…she called ecclesiastics ‘worms’ and promoting those who were attractive…but short on the purity of ministers of Jesus Christ.

The offering at Mass requires clean hands and a pure soul. She also said we as lay people could never pay back the priests what they have given us – Manna from Heaven–God Himself. And we are to pray and do penance for them. And they are our brothers.

The whole United States Christianity has lost the value of the Christian brotherhood and I am very ashamed of it.

We must hold on to what is best, study ancient Christian history, count the losses and make amends…Jesus always exhorted us to be one…and we have His Church to handle disputes and misunderstandings…

Our God never abandoned us to ourselves, but left us His shepherd and Church. Yes, it has gone through times of great scandal…but the Lord has forgiven all of them who did so…it is Jesus Christ Who sustains the Church.

 

[aspirant]

I am sure that there has been debate from the inside about it. But any priest who advocates an end of celibacy from the pulpit and criticises the pope and then goes on to marry will be shown the door.

Now you’re changing your tune significantly. But the truth is, even this guy would not be “shown the door” if he did not choose to leave. He’d just be laicized. Then his life would be more or less like any other lay person, doing what we lay people do.

 

[aspirant]

The Latin rite is the only one requiring celibacy.

Even the Latin Church allows exceptions, frequently ordaining the married men who used to be priests in Anglican, Episcopal, and even Lutheran churches.

But you are right about this only being Latin discipline. In the Eastern Catholic Churches, who are also in full communion with the Pope, canon law allows the ordination of married as well as celibate men without any exception to the disciplinary law being made.

The same occurs in non-Catholic Eastern Orthodox Churches.

As I have said, the Latin law requiring that only celibate men be ordained is only a disciplinary law, not a matter of doctrine or morality. It is changeable, and any Catholic is allowed to believe that it should be changed. There has been at least one American archbishop who was for many years very vocal regarding his belief that it should be changed. He was not excommunicated or “shown the door” for voicing this opinion; it doesn’t even come close to being an excommunicable offense. He simply served his very long career and retired at a very ripe old age.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, Aspirant, we have an Episcopalian priest, married, whose marriage is now accepted.

I worked with an Italian priest many years ago overseas.

We resumed our friendship this past year after a 10 year lapse. He is back home now…he had me look at his new website.

I cannot believe how much this priest is continuing to do in his life…remarkable…

I shared with him that if he were married, he would not have been able to help so many. He is a very devoted person. IF he had married, he would have spent time for his family and been a great husband and father. But he would not have been able to help so many others.

I have great emotion when I see priests becoming ordained, and prostrating themselves as in a death to themselves to give themselves totally to the Lord for His service…

I would answer really, that the world needs more celibate priests totally devoted to them, than being obsessed that priests needing to have sex or they will go after your kids.

Afterall, the greatest sex abuse in this country is in secular society by people who are free. And look at all the new, American-based Christian sects that focus on sex and have sex abuse. But America has a most difficult time with celibacy because we have become a culture obsessed with sex.

 

[Answersplease]

Read the full interview for Margaret Toscano:
pbs.org/mormons/interviews/toscano.html

How does the Mormon Church treat its intellectuals?

…there’s a real anti-intellectual strain that’s been there for quite some time. Certainly this is true in terms of Mormon studies.
…

…if you’re an active LDS person and you want to write about Mormonism, there are just certain things that you cannot talk about.
…

I know so many women who have gotten in trouble for talking about feminist issues. Obviously women in the priesthood and Heavenly Mother, but really raising any kind of feminist question is something you cannot do, questioning authority in any way – and in fact, I think that this is probably one of the biggest taboos in Mormonism.
…

And really, to be a Mormon intellectual means that you’re opening up yourself to being called into a church court. It’s a dangerous thing, and … the irony is, for example, at BYU, that if you really want to be a Mormon intellectual at BYU, your area of study cannot be Mormonism.

I do find it as ironic, because they try to say that the great thing about BYU is that you can blend your faith and your scholarship. But you can’t blend your faith and scholarship if your scholarship deals with gender, if it’s in anthropology, if it’s in Mormon history. If it’s anything like that, you cannot blend.

 

[dianaiad]

And Mormons are free to go about gossiping.

Regarding his historical, scholarly work.

He never says one word about being ex’d for anything but his historical work.

Quinn does not deny he is gay now. He is very open about it. He was not openly gay at the time of his excommunication.

Of course he didn’t say one word about being ex’d for anything but his historical work. He didn’t think it would gain him the sort of sympathy he wanted to admit that he was actively homosexual…and he was actively gay at the time of his excommunication. That was why he was excommunicated.

The very language of his excommunication proves that one. “Conduct unbecoming a member of the church” AND 'apostasy?" …when we know that the charge of apostacy was not a unanymous vote, but that the other was? His 'historical work" (which is incorrect) would fall under apostacy–but 'conduct unbecoming a member of the church" is about actions; generally sexual misconduct.

You know, like Hardy the pinup pimp, and Quinn the gay guy…

 

[Answersplease]

(colors, emphasis, and underline added)

Margaret Toscano was excommunicated from the LDS Church in 2000 for disregarding warnings from church leadership and continuing to write and speak critically about the role of women in Mormonism and the theological doctrine of the Heavenly Mother.
…

Toscano currently teaches classics at the University of Utah.

How is this message conveyed to girls growing up in this church?

…a young Mormon woman in her early 30s came to me. She knows that I talk about women’s issues. She was very upset, wanted to have a sympathetic ear, because she’s concerned about women’s issues. She’s concerned about the working-mother issue. She’s concerned about the fact that we can’t talk about Heavenly Mother in Mormon meetings. She has other concerns. And she told me a story about how she recently went to her bishop to tell him some of her concerns. He’s a friend of hers, so she was feeling that she could have a sympathetic ear here, and she was more or less shocked when, instead of being sympathetic to some of her concerns, he told her that she was being influenced by Satan and that if she were only not a working mother – that her real problem here is that she’s a working mother and that, because she’s a working mother, she’s now opened herself to the influence of Satan. This has made her dissatisfied with her role as a Mormon woman. …

The disturbing thing to me is that why would she be accused of being influenced by Satan when, if you look at her, she’s completely active in the church? She has three children. She’s a great mother. She’s very active in her ward. She has a church calling that she’s fulfilling. She’s doing all the outward things that she is supposed to as a Mormon woman. And yet, by questioning them, now suddenly she’s a pawn of the devil. …

Read the full interview for Margaret Toscano:

pbs.org/mormons/interviews/toscano.html

 

[RebeccaJ]

The excommunication of Sonia Johnson had a similar, if not greater, impact on young mormon women.

 

[Answersplease]

The excommunication of Sonia Johnson had a similar, if not greater, impact on young mormon women.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Johnson

Sonia Johnson (born February 27, 1936) is an American feminist activist and writer. She was an outspoken supporter of the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) and in the late 1970s was publicly critical of the position of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church; see also Mormon), of which she was a member, against the proposed amendment. She eventually was excommunicated from the church for her activities.

 

[dianaiad]

Answersplease:
These women were both excommunicated for preaching that we should actively worship a Goddess, answersplease. Catholicism would have excommunicated them just as fast (faster, since heresy is one of those latae sententiae things…) for this.

As for supporting ‘women’s rights,’ that’s silly. The CoJCoLDS has always been lightyears ahead of the government and people surrounding them in this regard; our women were voting earlier, and were encouraged to be fully educated and to have careers in ‘traditionally male’ areas a LOT earlier. Men and women are DIFFERENT. That doesn’t mean that men and women cannot both be politicians, physicians, writers, lawyers, firemen, et. al…and that when performing those jobs they shouldn’t be paid precisely the same, but they are different–physically, emotionally and spiritually. “Different’ does NOT mean 'greater/lesser.” it simply means ‘different.’

It seems to me that the feminists of the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s were the true believers in the inferiority of woman kind, because their agenda wasn’t to make women ‘equal to’ men. For one thing, we do not NEED to be ‘made equal to men.’ We simply are. Their goal was to make us THE SAME AS men. …but we are not.

The FACT is, women bear the children. If mankind is going to continue on the planet, then this small reproductive fact, with all that goes with it, has to be acknowledged and celebrated. Being pregnant takes a toll on a woman’s body, mind and health. That’s why women are generally stronger than men (not in terms of muscle mass or size…but in terms of endurance and the ability to deal with life WHILE we are under stress in a way that most men simply cannot.)

I DARE any man to spend nine months of constant nausea, back pain, digestive problems, blood pressure problems and edema followed by hours of intense and unrelenting pain…that leaves you bleeding and weak for six weeks --an in charge of a helpless human being who does not allow you the sleep and rest you require–and how many of them would volunteer to do it twice?

I know the above sounds like a joke. Certainly women ask it with a wry twist to their expressions, and men dismiss it…but it’s not really a joke, people.

Women, from the time they hit puberty, BLEED one week out of every month, and a huge prercentage of them are in pain then, too. At the same time we are expected to behave as if nothing was going on. Nobody is supposed to know–and if someone DOES notice that the woman is in pain, the insult is aimed at the WOMAN. She is not, after all, supposed to show it.

That’s just the physical. The rest of it is ‘fuzzier…’ but we are different, and ‘modern feminism’ is ashamed of it. They are ashamed of being women, and want to pretend that none of this stuff actually happens to us. They don’t want to be equal to men, they want to BE men…and the ironic thing is, there isn’t a man on the planet who could handle actually BEING a woman.

It’s very much like Ginger Rogers…who did everything Fred Astaire did except backwards and in high heels. The CoJCoLDS understands this very well; women have always been given the honor, and given the encouragement and opportunities to develop their talents and abilities to the fullest extent. Education, professional opportunities, the vote…

But these women wanted more; they bought into the feminist mindset that women were not good enough–that we actually should be men; they advocated the priesthood for women, they advocated worshiping a goddess, and they simply did not get the point of God’s creation; men and women fit together. Not because they are the same, but because they complement each other and make each other whole. The man is not greater than the woman, nor the woman the man, but together make one in the sight of God. Each one has a specific RELIGIOUS role, but those roles are not ‘lesser’ or ‘greater’ because one is formally bestowed and the other ‘comes with.’

Ah, well…I don’t know why I am even bothering.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Nice spin.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Wives, come home from the typewriter, the laundry, the nursing, come home from the factory, the café.

 

[zaffiroborant]

The husband is expected to support his family and only in an emergency should a wife secure outside employment. Her place is in the home, to build the home into a heaven of delight.

 

[RebeccaJ]

zaff…yeah I was just starting my career when mormon women were told to go home. I said: NOT!

 

[Answersplease]

(color added to the original text)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints#cite_ref-Abanes_2003_pp.3D418_79-0

The Ostlings claim that the LDS church retaliates against members that publish information that undermines church policies,[76] citing excommunications of scientist Simon Southerton[77] and biographer Fawn M. Brodie.[78] They further claim that the church suppresses intellectual freedom, citing the 1993 excommunication of “The September Six”, including gay LDS historian D. Michael Quinn, and author Lavina Fielding Anderson.[76] The Ostlings write that Anderson was the first to reveal the LDS church keeps files on LDS scholars, documenting questionable activities, and the Ostlings claim that "No other sizable religion in America monitors its followers in this way.[76]

The American Association of University Professors, since 1998, has put LDS-owned Brigham Young University on its list of universities that do not allow tenured professors sufficient freedom in teaching and research.[79]

Richard Abanes lists the following as church members excommunicated or censured for views unnaccepable to the church hierarchy:[80]

Journalist Deborah Laake, for her book Secret Ceremonies : A Mormon Woman’s Intimate Diary of Marriage and Beyond
BYU English teacher Cecilia Konchar-Farr, for her views on abortion laws
Writer Janice Merrill Allred
English Professor Gail Houston
Anthropologist David Knowlton

[76] ^ a b c Ostling, Richard and Joan. Mormon America. pp. 351–370.
[77] ^ “Critical website discusses excommunication of Southerton”. affirmation.org/news/2005_35.shtml. Retrieved 2007-12-07.
[78] ^ Wolverton, Susan (2004). Having Visions: The Book of Mormon : Translated and Exposed in Plain English. Algora. p. 321. ISBN 0875863108.
[79] ^ “AAUP report” (PDF). aaup.org/NR/rdonlyres/27EB0A08-8D25-4415-9E55-8081CC874AC5/0/Brigham.pdf.
[80] ^ a b Abanes 2003, pp. 418

Richard Abanes and the Ostlings criticize the LDS church for maintaining a group called the Strengthening Church Members Committee, led by two church apostles.[80] According to the Ostlings, the purpose of this committee is to collect and file “letters to the editor, other writings, quotes in the media, and public activities” of church members that may be publishing views contrary to those of the church leadership.[81]

[80] ^ a b Abanes 2003, pp. 418
[81] ^ Sunstone, 16:2, no.88 (August 1992), p. 63. As quoted in Ostling and Ostling, p. 354.

 

[Answersplease]

The CoJCoLDS understands this very well; women have always been given the honor, and given the encouragement and opportunities to develop their talents and abilities to the fullest extent. Education, professional opportunities, the vote…
…

The man is not greater than the woman, nor the woman the man, but together make one in the sight of God. Each one has a specific RELIGIOUS role, but those roles are not ‘lesser’ or ‘greater’ because one is formally bestowed and the other ‘comes with.’

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints#cite_ref-141

The Cult Awareness and Information Centre also point to comments such as those made by LDS leader Bruce R. McConkie, who wrote that a “woman’s primary place is in the home, where she is to rear children and abide by the righteous counsel of her husband”.[142]

[142] ^ The Role of Women in Mormonism

 

[why_me]

It seems to me that the feminists of the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s were the true believers in the inferiority of woman kind, because their agenda wasn’t to make women ‘equal to’ men. For one thing, we do not NEED to be ‘made equal to men.’ We simply are. Their goal was to make us THE SAME AS men. …but we are not.

The FACT is, women bear the children.

Answersplease is being a little hypocritical here since sonja johnson and the organization that she became a member and a leader of (NOW) was pro-abortion. And as we know, no catholic should belong to such an organization.

 

[why_me]

Diana,

I don’ think that many people read the posts from answersplease since his posting style is rude and selfish. It really is best to igore him since weaving through his blue and red letters and the words of the orginal poster can be mind boggling and confusing which is why others ignore him.

 

[Answersplease]

Now you know why I have why me on ignore.

The only time I am unfortunate enough to see his posts is when someone quotes him.

From the thread: **Milk before meat **

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6183038#post6183038

Post # 18 (color and emphasis added to original text)

First, it is not suprising that in public JS would deny polygamy. I would have done so too

since the hatred for mormons was very real. Polygamy would have created an intolerable position for the early mormons if the cat was let out of the bag. And so, I can see denying polygamy in public. No problem.

Post # 19
why me:

Quote: from answerplease:

St. Augustine said, “God does not need my lie.”

And yet, I am sure that augustine lied since he was not perfect.