The Mormon Church and Dissent

[ParkerD]

Yes, this…

Me I like JPII’s letter to the Fourth World Conference on Women of the United Nations.

Zaffiroborant,
Thanks for citing and sharing that letter, of which a part of it says:

In order to respect this natural order of things, it is necessary to counter the misconception that the role of motherhood is oppressive to women, and that a commitment to her family, particularly to her children, prevents a woman from reaching personal fulfilment, and women as a whole from having an influence in society. It is a disservice not only to children, but also to women and society itself, when a woman is made to feel guilty for wanting to remain in the home and nurture and care for her children. A mother’s presence in the family, so critical to the stability and growth of that basic unity of society, should instead be recognized, applauded and supported in every possible way. By the same token society needs to call husbands and fathers to their family responsibilities, and ought to strive for a situation in which they will not be forced by economic circumstances to move away from the home in search of work.

1. Moreover, in today’s world, when so many children are facing crises that threaten not only their long–term development, but also their very life, it is imperative that the security afforded by responsible parents – mother and father – within the context of the family be re–established and reaffirmed. Children need the positive environment of a stable family life that will ensure their development to human maturity – girls on an equal basis with boys.

Very good counsel, indeed–to be supported and applauded earnestly.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes ParkerD, a good teaching I agree with.

To the point of the the thread, and this tangent on mormons viewing working women as dissenters (within mormonism)…nothing that the Pope says indicates that a working woman ceases to be a mother. LDS, and some Catholics too, have this view that working mothers have abandoned her children or have ceased to respect motherhood. That we are trying to be men and as such we cease to be women. These are ridiculous, and sexist, assertions.

“There should be no doubt that on the basis of their equal dignity with men “women have a full right to become actively involved in all areas of public life, and this right must be affirmed and guaranteed, also, where necessary, through appropriate legislation” (Ibid.). In truth, in some societies, women have made great strides in this direction, being involved in a more decisive way, not without overcoming many obstacles, in cultural, social, economic and political life (Cf.* Ibid*.). This is a positive and hopeful development which the Beijing Conference can help to consolidate, in particular by calling on all countries to overcome situations which prevent women from being acknowledged, respected and appreciated in their dignity and competence. Profound changes are needed in the attitudes and organization of society in order to facilitate the participation of women in public life, while at the same time providing for the special obligations of women and of men with regard to their families.”

What I put in red, is exactly how I felt when Kimball was telling me to go home. That is, there was no acknowledgment, respect, or appreciation for the dignity of my work or my accomplishments.

“8. The challenge facing most societies is that of upholding, indeed strengthening, woman’s role in the family while at the same time making it possible for her to use all her talents and exercise all her rights in building up society.”

This particular paragraph addresses Diana’s false dichotomy.

In other words, the Pope isn’t telling working women to go home, he is saying a working woman needs to be upheld and strengthened in her familial role. Any mother I have known who works, of any religion or none at all, has this desire. Some people, on the other hand, seek to demonize working women with implications that I should have this view of myself. I don’t.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,
Thanks for citing and sharing that letter, of which a part of it says:

Very good counsel, indeed–to be supported and applauded earnestly.

And these points.

“Solutions to the issues and problems raised at the Conference, if they are to be honest and permanent, cannot but be based on the recognition of the inherent, inalienable dignity of women, and the importance of women’s presence and participation in all aspects of social life.”

“**It should in fact be clear that “when women are able fully to share their gifts with the whole community, the very way in which society understands and organizes itself is improved” **(Ibid. 9). This is a recognition of the unique role which women have in humanizing society and directing it towards the positive goals of solidarity and peace. It is far from the Holy See’s intentions to try to limit the influence and activity of women in society. On the contrary, without detracting from their role in relation to the family, the Church recognizes that women’s contribution to the welfare and progress of society is incalculable, and the Church looks to women to do even more to save society from the deadly virus of degradation and violence which is today witnessing a dramatic increase.”

“There should be no doubt that on the basis of their equal dignity with men “women have a full right to become actively involved in all areas of public life, and this right must be affirmed and guaranteed, also, where necessary, through appropriate legislation” (Ibid.). In truth, in some societies, women have made great strides in this direction, being involved in a more decisive way, not without overcoming many obstacles, in cultural, social, economic and political life (Cf. Ibid.). This is a positive and hopeful development which the Beijing Conference can help to consolidate, in particular by calling on all countries to overcome situations which prevent women from being acknowledged, respected and appreciated in their dignity and competence. Profound changes are needed in the attitudes and organization of society in order to facilitate the participation of women in public life, while at the same time providing for the special obligations of women and of men with regard to their families. In some cases changes have also to be made to render it possible for women to have access to property and to the management of their assets. Nor should the special difficulties and problems faced by single women living alone or those who head families be neglected.”

There are points made on both sides if the issue in his letter. This reflects deeper thought on the subject and that these issues are more complex than "women take care of the the home and men take care of the rest. Yes women should not be made to feel guilty for staying home or feel that motherhood is oppressive on the other hand they shouldn’t be made to feel guilty if they participate in the larger society. The letter shows the belief that society can be improved when women are actively involved in all areas of public life and society itself should be organized to facilitate their participation.

 

[JMJ4]

dianaiad - I absolutely agree that being a good mother is essential.

If a woman chooses to marry and chooses to have a family, then she should take care of her children, first and foremost.

I think the difference is that for Catholic women, marriage is a choice. Catholic girls do not believe that they have to get married in order to go to heaven. We can remain single, work, become nuns…it is our choice.

We can get married later in life and not be called “old maids”. We can marry a non-Catholic and still have a church wedding and non-members are welcome to attend the ceremony.

I think the debate really is about a woman’s right to choose how she wants to live her adult life and how much control she is willing to give her church on these personal matters.

 

[dianaiad]

Diana, rather than telling me what my experiences were/are, you could just ask. You know? You haven’t, but yes, I did start working at 16 and haven’t stopped since. But that is not the point at all. If you even thought about leaving mormonism for one second, it wouldn’t take you long to realize that it is not as simple as turning off a light. When I heard that talk I believed it was someone telling me what to do. Today, no, I don’t believe this.

You have told your story about leaving the church here, Rebecca. More than once, actually. As you can see, I was actually paying attention.

As to having a job when you were sixteen…well, I too started working when I was sixteen. (thinking…) no, make that 14 for me. I doubt, however, that very many sixteen year olds are ‘beginning their careers.’ I’m sure a few are…but unless they are day care center operators, landscape gardeners or fast food restaurant managers, I rather doubt that the jobs they began with are the ones they would eventually call ‘careers,’ do you?

…of course, there is the occasional software designer…and sports star, I suppose.

As well, you have to have been aware, even when you were sixteen, that the church’s advice and call for women who could to come home was not addressed to sixteen year old unmarried high school students.

…and if you really did believe that it was 'someone telling [you] what to do, then the problem wasn’t in what they were saying, but rather in what your perceptions were. Since your perceptions were erronious, WHY ARE YOU BLAMING THE CHURCH? Even now, when you are admitting that it WAS your perception and not actuallity, you are still blaming the church. C’mon, Rebecca. You left. Do you still have to justify your decision by blaming the church for YOUR misunderstanding?

 

[dianaiad]

Diana, I have said nothing but what I judged for myself. You are the one that has gone off on very long pontifications about how awful working mothers are.

Equivocating, Rebecca. Since I was a working mother, it would be a little dumb for me to say that all working mothers are awful. I was rather clear here. I said that women (and men, too…I put that in every time, amof…how come you aren’t yelling at me for calling working FATHERS ‘awful?’) who put their working lives and careers ahead of the wellbeing of their children have no business having any. Children, that is.

And that, m’dear, is precisely what you did with that “NOT…” telling someone “you can’t tell ME what to do, I’ll do whatever I want to do whether it’s good for my kids or not!” sideswipe. Because that’s how you were presenting the church’s position on this; not as concern for the wellbeing of the family, but rather as an attempt to control and diminish women, telling them to stay home and be slaves to the household.

Whatever…the leaders were, and are, right; and in that they agree with most child development experts in the country. It is MUCH better for a child to have a parent at home when they are. Daycare is NOT the best way to raise your kids, if there is any choice. It does not ‘take a village to raise a child.’ It takes concerned parents who are actually THERE.

 

[dianaiad]

Yes, this…

Me I like JPII’s letter to the Fourth World Conference on Women of the United Nations.

You agree that what I have said about the importance of women (and men) in their roles as parents, and…

then you recomend this letter, which has THIS quote in it?

…*In order to respect this natural order of things, it is necessary to counter the misconception that the role of motherhood is oppressive to women, and that a commitment to her family, particularly to her children, prevents a woman from reaching personal fulfilment, and women as a whole from having an influence in society. It is a disservice not only to children, but also to women and society itself, when a woman is made to feel guilty for wanting to remain in the home and nurture and care for her children. A mother’s presence in the family, so critical to the stability and growth of that basic unity of society, should instead be recognized, applauded and supported in every possible way. By the same token society needs to call husbands and fathers to their family responsibilities, and ought to strive for a situation in which they will not be forced by economic circumstances to move away from the home in search of work. *

Z, I see that you are another person who figures that it’s not what someone says, but who says it that makes something True or not. If the Pope says it, it’s gospel…but if a MORMON says it (as I did in those ‘rants’ you claim I am making) then of course it is oppresive to women?

…and you guys don’t understand why I get so flamin’ FRUSTRATED in here?

 

[dianaiad]

dianaiad - I absolutely agree that being a good mother is essential.

If a woman chooses to marry and chooses to have a family, then she should take care of her children, first and foremost.

I think the difference is that for Catholic women, marriage is a choice. Catholic girls do not believe that they have to get married in order to go to heaven. We can remain single, work, become nuns…it is our choice.

We can get married later in life and not be called “old maids”. We can marry a non-Catholic and still have a church wedding and non-members are welcome to attend the ceremony.

I think the debate really is about a woman’s right to choose how she wants to live her adult life and how much control she is willing to give her church on these personal matters.

Yes, you have those choices (though some of the points you raise are rather strange and off the topic…) and so, by the way, to LDS women. (well, except for the becoming a nun thing.)

Please look back at my posts. In NO way have I demeaned women who work. What I stated, and stated extremely clearly and strongly, was that women who put their work ahead of their families should not have children. They should make one of those other choices that you mention.

 

[dianaiad]

dianaiad - I absolutely agree that being a good mother is essential.

If a woman chooses to marry and chooses to have a family, then she should take care of her children, first and foremost.

I think the difference is that for Catholic women, marriage is a choice. Catholic girls do not believe that they have to get married in order to go to heaven. We can remain single, work, become nuns…it is our choice.

We can get married later in life and not be called “old maids”.

Well, so can we, m’dear. We did not invent the term ‘old maid,’ y’know.

We can marry a non-Catholic and still have a church wedding and non-members are welcome to attend the ceremony.

Indeed, so can we. In fact, if a Mormon woman chooses to marry a non-Mormon man, the only sort of wedding she CAN have is a ‘church wedding and non-members are welcome to attend the ceremony.’ As well, if it is that important for an LDS couple to have non-members at their weddings, they can have a wedding that everyone can come to, wait a year and THEN have the Temple sealing done. Most couples don’t do that, though.

I think the debate really is about a woman’s right to choose how she wants to live her adult life and how much control she is willing to give her church on these personal matters.

What, do you think that the CoJCoLDS takes whips to working women or something? Some sort of church discipline, perhaps–excommunication or shunning or…???

(thinking…) actually, so sorry to disappoint you and all, but no. Shoot, a working mother can get a Temple recommend, hold church jobs, vote and everything. Wow. We can even wear blue jeans, pants, and y’know what? (whisper this one…) We can wear swimsuits without caps, tights and skirts!

 

[zaffiroborant]

You agree that what I have said about the importance of women (and men) in their roles as parents, and…

then you recomend this letter, which has THIS quote in it?

…*In order to respect this natural order of things, it is necessary to counter the misconception that the role of motherhood is oppressive to women, and that a commitment to her family, particularly to her children, prevents a woman from reaching personal fulfilment, and women as a whole from having an influence in society. It is a disservice not only to children, but also to women and society itself, when a woman is made to feel guilty for wanting to remain in the home and nurture and care for her children. A mother’s presence in the family, so critical to the stability and growth of that basic unity of society, should instead be recognized, applauded and supported in every possible way. By the same token society needs to call husbands and fathers to their family responsibilities, and ought to strive for a situation in which they will not be forced by economic circumstances to move away from the home in search of work. *

Z, I see that you are another person who figures that it’s not what someone says, but who says it that makes something True or not. If the Pope says it, it’s gospel…but if a MORMON says it (as I did in those ‘rants’ you claim I am making) then of course it is oppresive to women?

…and you guys don’t understand why I get so flamin’ FRUSTRATED in here?

I see you also ignore the other parts of the letter, which I quoted in a later post.

 

[TheosisM]

One of my Mormon friends from college (female) was pre-med. She was/is pretty devout, and didn’t seem to have a problem with considering a medical career. I believe that her sister was either pre-med or wanted to be a scientist (I remember because she told me how much her sister loved organic chemistry ). Seemed like women working wasn’t that big of a deal for that Mormon family.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Equivocating, Rebecca. Since I was a working mother, it would be a little dumb for me to say that all working mothers are awful. I was rather clear here. I said that women (and men, too…I put that in every time, amof…how come you aren’t yelling at me for calling working FATHERS ‘awful?’) who put their working lives and careers ahead of the wellbeing of their children have no business having any. Children, that is.

And that, m’dear, is precisely what you did with that “NOT…” telling someone “you can’t tell ME what to do, I’ll do whatever I want to do whether it’s good for my kids or not!” sideswipe. Because that’s how you were presenting the church’s position on this; not as concern for the wellbeing of the family, but rather as an attempt to control and diminish women, telling them to stay home and be slaves to the household.

Whatever…the leaders were, and are, right; and in that they agree with most child development experts in the country. It is MUCH better for a child to have a parent at home when they are. Daycare is NOT the best way to raise your kids, if there is any choice. It does not ‘take a village to raise a child.’ It takes concerned parents who are actually THERE.

lol. I believe you were the one who made a snide, and inaccurate, remark about my husband not being able to take care of me. Hardly the position of someone defending a stay-at-home dad.

 

[dianaiad]

I see you also ignore the other parts of the letter, which I quoted in a later post.

Z…would you care to explain to me how I could, in an answer to THIS post, anything you referred to in a LATER one? Did someone invent time travel and forget to tell me about it?

As to the letter itself, I ignored nothing. I didn’t notice that anything the Pope wrote in any other part of that letter contradicted the quote I just gave you. Did you?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Z…would you care to explain to me how I could, in an answer to THIS post, anything you referred to in a LATER one? Did someone invent time travel and forget to tell me about it?

Today is the 14th my posts are from the 12th and 13th no time travel needed.

As to the letter itself, I ignored nothing. I didn’t notice that anything the Pope wrote in any other part of that letter contradicted the quote I just gave you. Did you?

Another myopic view of his letter.

 

[JMJ4]

Yes, you have those choices (though some of the points you raise are rather strange and off the topic…) and so, by the way, to LDS women. (well, except for the becoming a nun thing.)

Please look back at my posts. In NO way have I demeaned women who work. What I stated, and stated extremely clearly and strongly, was that women who put their work ahead of their families should not have children. They should make one of those other choices that you mention.

dianaiad- Maybe my points seem strange and off topic to you, but actually I was “reading between the lines” when reading your post exchanges with Rebecca. Maybe I was off - sorry!

(I am very close to several LDS women and there is tremendous pressure to marry young and to marry a RM. Isn’t it a requirement to be married to go to the higher levels of heaven?)

I do not think you have demeaned women who work. I was not suggesting this.

 

[sablouwho]

there is tremendous pressure to marry young …

When I was investigating LDS, I was in a ward with a lot of young married couples. I felt like such an exotic zoo animal–being in my mid-30’s and being divorced. Felt totally out of place. Not that anyone there did anything to make me feel out of place–they were all super nice. But being single in that ward (even though I was married once before) was rough. Really rough.

 

[TheosisM]

When I was investigating LDS, I was in a ward with a lot of young married couples. I felt like such an exotic zoo animal–being in my mid-30’s and being divorced. Felt totally out of place. Not that anyone there did anything to make me feel out of place–they were all super nice. But being single in that ward (even though I was married once before) was rough. Really rough.

Guess that’s why there are singles wards

 

[sablouwho]

Guess that’s why there are singles wards

The singles wards in my area have an upper age limit of 30, so that really wasn’t a viable solution.

 

[Answersplease]

(color and bolding and underlining added as highlights to the original texts)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critici…s#cite_ref-141

The Cult Awareness and Information Centre also point to comments such as those made by LDS leader Bruce R. McConkie, who wrote that a “woman’s primary place is in the home, where she is to rear children and abide by the righteous counsel of her husband”.[142]

[142] ^ The Role of Women in Mormonism

**
I also know that the women in Utah have the highest use of Prozac…they are held to such high level of perfection and if they do wrong, their husband will not allow them entrance into heaven…**

 

[Xavierlives]

Guess that’s why there are singles wards

I think I recall that being a pretty funny movie too.