The Mormon creed

[Marie5890]

I have heard that Mormons are not creedal. But they are. Their Articles of Faith are the definition of being a creed, even to the extent of starting off as “We believe…”

The word “creed” comes from the word “credo” which is Latin for “I believe…”
I don’t remember it really being discussed when I was LDS, so perhaps that is why there are some who see themselves as being non-creedal. They haven’t given it much thought.

 

[Hatikvah]

Well, Christianity (or, better yet, anyone identifying as a Christian for a working definition) ought to have a creedal faith in some form. Even if one were to deny the Nicene, Chalcedonian, and Athanasian creeds, we still have the less objectionable Apostle’s Creed (which does not espouse very much theology, just the very basics) and the “Kurios Iesous” (Jesus is Lord) creed.

The very fact of “Jesus is Lord” proves that Christianity is a creedal religion at its core because we can sum up our faith as such, even if it’s a mass oversimplification.

 

[jane_doe]

I have heard that Mormons are not creedal. But they are. Their Articles of Faith are the definition of being a creed, even to the extent of starting off as “We believe…”

The word “creed” comes from the word “credo” which is Latin for “I believe…”

LDS have nothing against statements of belief: we make them quite often and some are recorded in scripture. But it’s important to remember who’s the author of each statement. So while it’s fantastic when I make a statement of my beliefs, my statements are not on par with God’s Words-- I still have much to learn and being human make mistakes. Statements of beliefs made in scripture however, those are from God and are indeed scripture. The Articles of Faith would be one such example.

Speaking of the mainstream Christian creeds (Nicene, etc): these are statements of beliefs written by humans, and are not scripture. Hence, they are not treated as scripture by LDS. It is due to this rejection of **these specific creeds **that LDS are sometimes called “non-creedal”. It is not because LDS have something against statements of belief.

 

[Marie5890]

LDS have nothing against statements of belief: we make them quite often and some are recorded in scripture. But it’s important to remember who’s the author of each statement. So while it’s fantastic when I make a statement of my beliefs, my statements are not on par with God’s Words-- I still have much to learn and being human make mistakes. Statements of beliefs made in scripture however, those are from God and are indeed scripture. The Articles of Faith would be one such example.

Speaking of the mainstream Christian creeds (Nicene, etc): these are statements of beliefs written by humans, and are not scripture. Hence, they are not treated as scripture by LDS. It is due to this rejection of **these specific creeds **that LDS are sometimes called “non-creedal”. It is not because LDS have something against statements of belief.

Mormons still have a creed, though, written by Joseph Smith.
The Articles of Faith ARE a creed.

 

[jane_doe]

Mormons still have a creed, though, written by Joseph Smith.
The Articles of Faith ARE a creed.

The Articles of Faith are believed to be scripture, which makes this apples and oranges.

 

[Horton]

LDS have nothing against statements of belief: we make them quite often and some are recorded in scripture. But it’s important to remember who’s the author of each statement. So while it’s fantastic when I make a statement of my beliefs, my statements are not on par with God’s Words-- I still have much to learn and being human make mistakes. Statements of beliefs made in scripture however, those are from God and are indeed scripture. The Articles of Faith would be one such example.

Speaking of the mainstream Christian creeds (Nicene, etc): these are statements of beliefs written by humans, and are not scripture. Hence, they are not treated as scripture by LDS. It is due to this rejection of **these specific creeds **that LDS are sometimes called “non-creedal”. It is not because LDS have something against statements of belief.

Since the LDS church does not believe the bible to be actual and correct scripture, then your statement nonsensical. You state creeds are not scripture and invalid because they written by man and yet all LDS scripture is written by man, JS and his followers, so therefore your Articles of Faith are true?

 

[jane_doe]

Since the LDS church does not believe the bible to be actual and correct scripture

False statement.

 

[Hatikvah]

Since the LDS church does not believe the bible to be actual and correct scripture, then your statement nonsensical. You state creeds are not scripture and invalid because they written by man and yet all LDS scripture is written by man, JS and his followers, so therefore your Articles of Faith are true?

Perhaps we should try not to make rash statements… Jane would understand this more than we would, and we’re not scholars of Mormonism.

I’m not sure whether it’s correct, but I’ve heard that the LDS Church accepts the Bible as Scripture “insofar as it is translated correctly.” But it makes sense that if a translation is completely manipulated and butchered, it is no longer the Bible as we know it. It is a Scripture of man.

 

[jane_doe]

I’m not sure whether it’s correct, but I’ve heard that the LDS Church accepts the Bible as Scripture “insofar as it is translated correctly.” But it makes sense that if a translation is completely manipulated and butchered, it is no longer the Bible as we know it. It is a Scripture of man.

Correct.

 

[Horton]

Perhaps we should try not to make rash statements… Jane would understand this more than we would, and we’re not scholars of Mormonism.

I’m not sure whether it’s correct, but I’ve heard that the LDS Church accepts the Bible as Scripture “insofar as it is translated correctly.” But it makes sense that if a translation is completely manipulated and butchered, it is no longer the Bible as we know it. It is a Scripture of man.

I asked a valid question that jane will not answer. She made the claim creeds should not be made because they are the writings of man, but then goes on to claim the creed “articles of faith” are of scripture. I asked since all there scripture is written by man, how does this make sense.

This is my point exactly! The LDS accept all LDS scripture as divinely inspired but the don’t accept the bible as divinely inspired. If they did accept it there would be no need for the caveat “insofar as it s translated correctly”. They know there is scripture in the bible that does not support LDS theology so they make the claim it is an incorrect translation and therefor invalid.

And just for the record I do not believe Jane is a scholar of Mormonism anymore than I am of Catholicism. Do I know certain things about Catholic theology? Yep I do, however I certainly do NOT know everything about Catholicism and I will never claim I do.

 

[TOmNossor]

I wrote this and didn’t post it, but it answers much of Horton’s questions.

Mormons still have a creed, though, written by Joseph Smith.*

The Articles of Faith ARE a creed.

As best I can read Jane’s reply, she said ALMOST that.

She said that LDS have Creeds, but they scriptural and from God. *

… But it’s important to remember who’s the author of each statement. … Statements of beliefs made in scripture however, those are from God and are indeed scripture.* The Articles of Faith would be one such example. *

Speaking of the mainstream Christian creeds (Nicene, etc): these are statements of beliefs written by humans, and are not scripture.* Hence, they are not treated as scripture by LDS.

The Articles of Faith come to us from God via public revelation and are included in our scriptures.

**

I think this provides a solid way in which LDS are opposed to Creeds created by humans and comfortable with Creeds created by revelation from God.

Would you suggest that the Nicene Creed (or the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed) is (or are) REVELATION from God? *

If not, then we have defined an important difference between Catholic use of Creeds and LDS use of Creeds.

**

Catholics use creeds Catholics believe are NOT REVELATION from God and LDS use of Creeds LDS believe are REVELATION from God.

Charity, TOm

 

[jane_doe]

but then goes on to claim the creed “articles of faith” are of scripture.

LDS do acknowledge the Articles of Faith as scripture. That is a fact.

The LDS accept all LDS scripture as divinely inspired but the don’t accept the bible as divinely inspired.

Again, this is a false statement.

If they did accept it there would be no need for the caveat “insofar as it s translated correctly”.
.

Again, false statement. Would YOU accept a poorly translated Bible as being authentic? Of course not!

 

[jane_doe]

I think this provides a solid way in which LDS are opposed to Creeds created by humans and comfortable with Creeds created by revelation from God.

Would you suggest that the Nicene Creed (or the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed) is (or are) REVELATION from God? *

If not, then we have defined an important difference between Catholic use of Creeds and LDS use of Creeds.

**
Catholics use creeds Catholics believe are NOT REVELATION from God and LDS use of Creeds LDS believe are REVELATION from God.

Well said!

 

[TOmNossor]

This is my point exactly! The LDS accept all LDS scripture as divinely inspired but the don’t accept the bible as divinely inspired. If they did accept it there would be no need for the caveat “insofar as it s translated correctly”. They know there is scripture in the bible that does not support LDS theology so they make the claim it is an incorrect translation and therefor invalid.

Most LDS who have explored these issues would be absolutely comfortable with the statement that the “Autographs” of the Bible are inspired precisely as the BOM is inspired.* There are twoproblems IMO. The small one is that the Bible has passed through non-inspired copyest who we KNOW have changed it on purpose and on accident.* (The larger one is that theBiblehas been*“translated” theologically into lots of errant ideas that LDS reject.)*

We have ZERO autographs today.

Concerning the first problem:

The Comma Johanneum is almost universally accepted as an example of a copyest who intentionally inserted text into the scriptures.* Fortunately for us today we know that this was done because as we trace manuscripts, we can discover that the Comma Johanneum is not in the earliest and instead is only in a large number of later manuscripts.* The KJV of the Bible has the Comma Johanneum in it.

The accidental errors are more frequent and not theologically motivated by copyest who seem to have not had the same concept of “Biblical Innerrancy” that modern non-LDS Christians have.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to know if (and quite unlikely that) we have the ORIGINAL Bible text.* This is just true and most textual scholars acknowledge it.

Concerning the 2nd problem, I will forgo specifics and instead say:

The Bible as we have it IMO is quite reliable.* It is rare (and I oppose this practice) for a LDS to say, our truth is this and it disagrees with the Bible because the Bible is only correct, “so far as it is translated …”** It is my position that LDS believe things BEYOND the Bible because our beliefs are based on the SAME THING the Bible is based on, namely, the revelation of God.* So, our beliefs are consistent with the Bible, but not sola scriptura.* So, I do not “know there is scripture in the bible that does not support LDS theology,” except if it is taken as the ONLY source of theology.

Catholics are in the SAME place in that they believe things BEYOND the Bible.* This thread is not about such things, so I will not offer Catholic beliefs that all Sola Scriptura Christian would reject, but like LDS they have such things too.

Charity, TOm

 

[SyroMalankara]

Would you suggest that the Nicene Creed (or the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed) is (or are) REVELATION from God? *

If not, then we have defined an important difference between Catholic use of Creeds and LDS use of Creeds.

**

Catholics use creeds Catholics believe are NOT REVELATION from God and LDS use of Creeds LDS believe are REVELATION from God.

Charity, TOm

Not Revelation, but the Catholic Creeds are, I believe (Credo), infallible expressions of Faith.

 

[jane_doe]

Not Revelation, but the Catholic Creeds are, I believe (Credo), infallible expressions of Faith.

But not revelation and not to be bound with scripture.
The LDS Articles of Faith are viewed as revelation and are bound with rest of scripture.

 

[LivingWaters7]

But not revelation and not to be bound with scripture.
The LDS Articles of Faith are viewed as revelation and are bound with rest of scripture.

Catholics do not share this understanding of something being “bound” with the rest of scripture.

Catholics believe that Divine Revelation is found in two places: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Both are equal. Something doesn’t have to be “bound with scripture” to be considered Revelation, nor does it have to be “bound with scripture” to be considered inspired and/or holding apostolic authority.

Catholics believe that the living transmission of sacred teachings and Revelation is accomplished in the Holy Spirit. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."

Catholics believe that the Creeds are not merely man made, uninspired documents. Indeed, they are authoritative documents teaching apostolic Truths. As you may know, Catholics believe that the Councils of the Church are authoritative (by virtue of the Church’s Divine authority), and the pronouncements of these Councils are protected by the Holy Spirit. Many of the Creeds that are held as authoritative come from these sacred Councils. We believe that these definitions and expoundings that come from Councils are authoritative and binding on the faithful, right along with sacred scripture.

Again, it is clear that Catholics and LDS do not have a common understanding in relation to what you’re talking about re: something being “bound” with scripture.

 

[Horton]

Again, false statement. Would YOU accept a poorly translated Bible as being authentic? Of course not!

But you must as the LDS insist on the caveat “insofar as it is translated correctly”. If you believe your KJV of the bible is inspired text, then why the need for the caveat?

 

[Horton]

Catholics do not share this understanding of something being “bound” with the rest of scripture.

Catholics believe that Divine Revelation is found in two places: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Both are equal. Something doesn’t have to be “bound with scripture” to be considered Revelation, nor does it have to be “bound with scripture” to be considered inspired and/or holding apostolic authority.

Catholics believe that the living transmission of sacred teachings and Revelation is accomplished in the Holy Spirit. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."

Catholics believe that the Creeds are not merely man made, uninspired documents. Indeed, they are authoritative documents teaching apostolic Truths. As you may know, Catholics believe that the Councils of the Church are authoritative (by virtue of the Church’s Divine authority), and the pronouncements of these Councils are protected by the Holy Spirit. Many of the Creeds that are held as authoritative come from these sacred Councils. We believe that these definitions and expoundings that come from Councils are authoritative and binding on the faithful, right along with sacred scripture.

Again, it is clear that Catholics and LDS do not have a common understanding in relation to what you’re talking about re: something being “bound” with scripture.

Very well said:thumbsup:

 

[Marie5890]

(copied and pasted from a post from 2012. Not sure where the idea that the Nicene Creed is not scriptural. credit to Paul Saltzman)

"Since the Nicene Creed is the basic statement of faith for historical Christianity, I thought it would be helpful to include the text of the Creed along with corresponding scripture references in order to show its thoroughly scriptural basis:

I believe in one God, (Mark 12:29, 12:32, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father almighty, (2 Corinthians 6:18)
maker of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1:1, Revelation 4:11)
of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 11:3)

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:5)
the Only Begotten Son of God, (John 3:16)
born of the Father before all ages. (Colossians 1:15, 1:17)
God from God (John 1:1-2), Light from Light, (John 1:4, 1:9, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Hebrews 1:3)
true God from true God, (1 John 5:20)
begotten, not made (John 1:18), consubstantial with the Father (cf. 1 John 1:5 & John 1:4, 1:9);
through him all things were made (John 1:3, 1:10, Colossians 1:16, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 11:36, Hebrews 1:10).
For us men and for our salvation (Matthew 1:21, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Colossians 1:13-14)
he came down from heaven, (John 3:13, 3:31, 6:38)
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary (Luke 1:34-35),
and became man (John 1:14, Hebrews 2:14).

For our sake he was crucified (1 Peter 2:24) under Pontius Pilate (Mark 15:15),
he suffered death (Matthew 27:50) and was buried, (Matthew 27:59-60)
and rose again on the third day (Mark 9:31, 16:9, Acts 10:40)
in accordance with the Scriptures (Luke 24:45-46, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
He ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9)
and is seated at the right hand of the Father (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69).
He will come again in glory (Mark 13:26, John 14:3, 1 Thessalonians 4:17)
to judge the living and the dead (Matthew 16:27, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1, 1 Peter 4:5)
and his kingdom will have no end (Hebrews 1:8, 2 Peter 1:11).

I believe in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8), the Lord, the giver of life, (John 6:63, 2 Corinthians 3:6)
who proceeds from the Father (John 15:26) and the Son (John 16:7),
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, (2 Corinthians 3:8)
who has spoken through the prophets (1 Peter 1:10-11, Ephesians 3:5).

I believe in one (Ephesians 4:4), holy (Ephesians 1:4, 5:27), catholic (Matthew 28:19, Acts 1:8) and apostolic (Ephesians 2:20) Church (Matthew 16:18, Romans 12:4-5, 1 Corinthians 10:17).
I confess one baptism (Ephesians 4:5, Galatians 3:27, 1 Corinthians 12:13) for the forgiveness of sins (Colossians 2:12-13, Acts 22:16)
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead (Romans 6:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 4:16)
and the life of the world to come (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1). Amen."