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jane_doe
Guest
Thank you for this informative response about Catholic beliefs. However, I gave my response to LDS docterine, as an LDS person. Not Catholic.
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wmscott
Guest
With regards to the bold, Paul Saltzman posted the below references that you cite as not being supported by scripture. LINK
I believe in one God, (Mark 12:29, 12:32, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father almighty, (2 Corinthians 6:18)
maker of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1:1, Revelation 4:11)
of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 11:3)
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:5)
the Only Begotten Son of God, (John 3:16)
born of the Father before all ages. (Colossians 1:15, 1:17)
God from God (John 1:1-2), Light from Light, (John 1:4, 1:9, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Hebrews 1:3)
true God from true God, (1 John 5:20)
begotten, not made (John 1:18), consubstantial with the Father (cf. 1 John 1:5 & John 1:4, 1:9);
through him all things were made (John 1:3, 1:10, Colossians 1:16, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 11:36, Hebrews 1:10).
For us men and for our salvation (Matthew 1:21, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Colossians 1:13-14)
he came down from heaven, (John 3:13, 3:31, 6:38)
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary (Luke 1:34-35),
and became man (John 1:14, Hebrews 2:14).
For our sake he was crucified (1 Peter 2:24) under Pontius Pilate (Mark 15:15),
he suffered death (Matthew 27:50) and was buried, (Matthew 27:59-60)
and rose again on the third day (Mark 9:31, 16:9, Acts 10:40)
in accordance with the Scriptures (Luke 24:45-46, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
He ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9)
and is seated at the right hand of the Father (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69).
He will come again in glory (Mark 13:26, John 14:3, 1 Thessalonians 4:17)
to judge the living and the dead (Matthew 16:27, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1, 1 Peter 4:5)
and his kingdom will have no end (Hebrews 1:8, 2 Peter 1:11).
I believe in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8), the Lord, the giver of life, (John 6:63, 2 Corinthians 3:6)
who proceeds from the Father (John 15:26) and the Son (John 16:7),
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, (2 Corinthians 3:8)
who has spoken through the prophets (1 Peter 1:10-11, Ephesians 3:5).
I believe in one (Ephesians 4:4), holy (Ephesians 1:4, 5:27), catholic (Matthew 28:19, Acts 1:8) and apostolic (Ephesians 2:20) Church (Matthew 16:18, Romans 12:4-5, 1 Corinthians 10:17).
I confess one baptism (Ephesians 4:5, Galatians 3:27, 1 Corinthians 12:13) for the forgiveness of sins (Colossians 2:12-13, Acts 22:16)
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead (Romans 6:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 4:16)
and the life of the world to come (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1). Amen.
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wmscott
Guest
Hi Marie, I guess I should have read the whole thread and not duplicated your post. Sorry.(copied and pasted from a post from 2012. Not sure where the idea that the Nicene Creed is not scriptural.credit to Paul Saltzman)
"Since the Nicene Creed is the basic statement of faith for historical Christianity, I thought it would be helpful to include the text of the Creed along with corresponding scripture references in order to show its thoroughly scriptural basis:
I believe in one God, (Mark 12:29, 12:32, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father almighty, (2 Corinthians 6:18)
maker of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1:1, Revelation 4:11)
of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 11:3)
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:5)
the Only Begotten Son of God, (John 3:16)
born of the Father before all ages. (Colossians 1:15, 1:17)
God from God (John 1:1-2), Light from Light, (John 1:4, 1:9, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Hebrews 1:3)
true God from true God, (1 John 5:20)
begotten, not made (John 1:18), consubstantial with the Father (cf. 1 John 1:5 & John 1:4, 1:9);
through him all things were made (John 1:3, 1:10, Colossians 1:16, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 11:36, Hebrews 1:10).
For us men and for our salvation (Matthew 1:21, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Colossians 1:13-14)
he came down from heaven, (John 3:13, 3:31, 6:38)
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary (Luke 1:34-35),
and became man (John 1:14, Hebrews 2:14).
For our sake he was crucified (1 Peter 2:24) under Pontius Pilate (Mark 15:15),
he suffered death (Matthew 27:50) and was buried, (Matthew 27:59-60)
and rose again on the third day (Mark 9:31, 16:9, Acts 10:40)
in accordance with the Scriptures (Luke 24:45-46, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
He ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9)
and is seated at the right hand of the Father (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69).
He will come again in glory (Mark 13:26, John 14:3, 1 Thessalonians 4:17)
to judge the living and the dead (Matthew 16:27, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1, 1 Peter 4:5)
and his kingdom will have no end (Hebrews 1:8, 2 Peter 1:11).
I believe in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8), the Lord, the giver of life, (John 6:63, 2 Corinthians 3:6)
who proceeds from the Father (John 15:26) and the Son (John 16:7),
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, (2 Corinthians 3:8)
who has spoken through the prophets (1 Peter 1:10-11, Ephesians 3:5).
I believe in one (Ephesians 4:4), holy (Ephesians 1:4, 5:27), catholic (Matthew 28:19, Acts 1:8) and apostolic (Ephesians 2:20) Church (Matthew 16:18, Romans 12:4-5, 1 Corinthians 10:17).
I confess one baptism (Ephesians 4:5, Galatians 3:27, 1 Corinthians 12:13) for the forgiveness of sins (Colossians 2:12-13, Acts 22:16)
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead (Romans 6:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 4:16)
and the life of the world to come (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1). Amen."
Just like the Mass, totally based in Scripture, yet there are many that would accuse the CC of not being Bible based.
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Marie5890
Guest
No need to apologize. It’s been my experience that many will say that, when it comes to the Catholic faith, that “thus and such” (whatever topic they are talking about) is not scriptural, without actually doing the studying to find out if it is or not.
The Nicene Creed is clearly taken from scripture, as both you and I have shared by way of Saltzman’s post, and thus, not written by men.
But it’s human nature to default to repeat what we have heard or been taught, without ever really knowing what we are repeating is factual.
We all do it.
The Creed was not written by men, but formulated right from Sacred Scripture itself.
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Horton
Guest
Thanks to you and Marie for posting this.
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Marie5890
Guest
You are welcome. I found it most helpful.
Also been reading Hahn’s “The Creed”, and he goes back even further into Judaism and the formations of creeds, including the Shema Yisrael being creedal in nature.
I always find it enlightening to see the echoes of Judaism in Catholicism/Othrodoxy.
I have a friend who became Catholic several years ago, a convert from Judaism. He told me one of the biggest draws was the Mass, particularly the Liturgy of the Word, and how it resembled and reminded him of when he was younger and went to synagogue.
He saw the echoes of family’s faith, and he felt at home with us.
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jane_doe
Guest
I said it is not scripture. Do you believe that it is scripture?(copied and pasted from a post from 2012. Not sure where the idea that the Nicene Creed is not scriptural.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
See my last post again as to why this is a non sequitur from the Catholic perspective.
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jane_doe
Guest
Yes, but 1) The previous poster did not use infallibility as a defense, but rather a man citing the Bible, 2) From an LDS perspective such a comment is equally non-sequietor.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
The previous poster was addressing the issue of whether the contents of the Nicene Creed are scriptural, and cited evidence that the Nicene Creed’s statements or professions of faith are indeed Biblical.
My post is simply addressing the matter of whether Catholics view the Nicene Creed (and other Creeds) as scripture, which is the issue you have brought up (indeed, that is what you have asked her). My response is that the question doesn’t make sense in Catholicism (at least if you are making an equivalence between how Mormons view the matter, re: when you were talking about something being “bound” with scripture), and that for Catholics, scripture is scripture, i.e. the Bible, there are other sources of Divine Revelation, and that pronouncements from sacred Councils of the Church, including the Nicene Creed, are authoritative and binding on the Faithful, just like scripture, as we believe the Spirit guides the living transmission of Truth in the Church.
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Marie5890
Guest
It most certainly is part of the deposit of faith and it’s formulation is clearly scriptural. Is it the Bible? No, but it doesn’t have to be. Just because not the Bible doesn’t mean it’s formulation (again, from the Bible itself) is not inspired by the Spirit.
Sacred Tradition is seen as inspired as Sacred Scripture, and are of equals.
There is nothing in the Creed that is not scripturally supported. Nothing “unBiblical”
Catholics don’t believe in Sola Scriptura.
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Marie5890
Guest
LW has done a much better job in articulating this than I have.
The Nicene Creed clearly has it’s formation in scripture. And as part of the Deposit of Faith, is authoritative and binding. There is nothing unBiblical about it.
But back to my original OP.
Mormons, too, have their creed (a formal statement of belief) in the Articles of Faith.
Mormons are just as creedal as Catholics, though it’s a different creed.
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jane_doe
Guest
You’re still ignoring who is the ultimate author…
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Marie5890
Guest
No, Im not. The Spirit. Again, Divinely inspired in its formulation.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
That’s the entire point I’ve been making! God is the ultimate author!
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Marie5890
Guest
Exaclty.
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Marie5890
Guest
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mackbrislawn
Guest
About creeds, maybe some background. The creeds were composed to counter heresies and false teachings that arose. Of course, in the beginning, the earliest Christians did not have creeds, they just believed what they believed, what they remembered from the teaching of the apostles, and they didn’t worry about it further.
Then heresies and false teachers came along to confuse the people. What should the people believe? So, creeds became necessary to distinguish what the true Christians believed as opposed to the false teachers. Hence, creeds that say, “I believe…” The statements in the creeds were crafted to oppose specific false teachings. For example the phrases “One in being with the Father,” “true God of true God,” “created, not made” combats Arianism.
The creeds are not scripture, but are scriptural. They are authoritative statements of the Church as to what God intends scripture to say. The false teachers used and twisted scripture to generate incorrect teachings, interpretations. So the Church responded by clarifying to the faithful what the true beliefs are, through the creeds. God prevented the Church from teaching incorrectly in the creeds. They are not revelation nor inspiration, but are kept by the Holy Spirit from being wrong statements of apostolic teachings.
As far as the caveat, “insofar as it is correctly translated,” that goes without saying. It hardly seems necessary to even mention it. Of course, how could it be otherwise? And we know that only the autograph manuscripts were inspired, the copies and translations are not.
Then heresies and false teachers came along to confuse the people. What should the people believe? So, creeds became necessary to distinguish what the true Christians believed as opposed to the false teachers. Hence, creeds that say, “I believe…” The statements in the creeds were crafted to oppose specific false teachings. For example the phrases “One in being with the Father,” “true God of true God,” “created, not made” combats Arianism.
The creeds are not scripture, but are scriptural. They are authoritative statements of the Church as to what God intends scripture to say. The false teachers used and twisted scripture to generate incorrect teachings, interpretations. So the Church responded by clarifying to the faithful what the true beliefs are, through the creeds. God prevented the Church from teaching incorrectly in the creeds. They are not revelation nor inspiration, but are kept by the Holy Spirit from being wrong statements of apostolic teachings.
As far as the caveat, “insofar as it is correctly translated,” that goes without saying. It hardly seems necessary to even mention it. Of course, how could it be otherwise? And we know that only the autograph manuscripts were inspired, the copies and translations are not.
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Horton
Guest
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TOmNossor
Guest
A definition at Nicea that was comprised of scriptural language was proposed, but it was rejected because it would not allow Arians to be excluded from the church.(copied and pasted from a post from 2012. Not sure where the idea that the Nicene Creed is not scriptural.
"Since the Nicene Creed is the basic statement of faith for historical Christianity, I thought it would be helpful to include the text of the Creed along with corresponding scripture references in order to show its thoroughly scriptural basis:
I believe in one God, (Mark 12:29, 12:32, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father almighty, (2 Corinthians 6:18)
maker of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1:1, Revelation 4:11)
of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 11:3)
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:5)
the Only Begotten Son of God, (John 3:16)
born of the Father before all ages. (Colossians 1:15, 1:17)
God from God (John 1:1-2), Light from Light, (John 1:4, 1:9, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Hebrews 1:3)
true God from true God, (1 John 5:20)
begotten, not made (John 1:18), consubstantial with the Father (cf. 1 John 1:5 & John 1:4, 1:9);
through him all things were made (John 1:3, 1:10, Colossians 1:16, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 11:36, Hebrews 1:10).
For us men and for our salvation (Matthew 1:21, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Colossians 1:13-14)
he came down from heaven, (John 3:13, 3:31, 6:38)
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary (Luke 1:34-35),
and became man (John 1:14, Hebrews 2:14).
For our sake he was crucified (1 Peter 2:24) under Pontius Pilate (Mark 15:15),
he suffered death (Matthew 27:50) and was buried, (Matthew 27:59-60)
and rose again on the third day (Mark 9:31, 16:9, Acts 10:40)
in accordance with the Scriptures (Luke 24:45-46, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
He ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9)
and is seated at the right hand of the Father (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69).
He will come again in glory (Mark 13:26, John 14:3, 1 Thessalonians 4:17)
to judge the living and the dead (Matthew 16:27, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1, 1 Peter 4:5)
and his kingdom will have no end (Hebrews 1:8, 2 Peter 1:11).
I believe in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8), the Lord, the giver of life, (John 6:63, 2 Corinthians 3:6)
who proceeds from the Father (John 15:26) and the Son (John 16:7),
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, (2 Corinthians 3:8)
who has spoken through the prophets (1 Peter 1:10-11, Ephesians 3:5).
I believe in one (Ephesians 4:4), holy (Ephesians 1:4, 5:27), catholic (Matthew 28:19, Acts 1:8) and apostolic (Ephesians 2:20) Church (Matthew 16:18, Romans 12:4-5, 1 Corinthians 10:17).
I confess one baptism (Ephesians 4:5, Galatians 3:27, 1 Corinthians 12:13) for the forgiveness of sins (Colossians 2:12-13, Acts 22:16)
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead (Romans 6:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 4:16)
and the life of the world to come (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1). Amen."
Your view that Nicea is scriptural relies upon bending scripture to your definition, not letting scripture speak for itself (IMO).
The idea that (cf. 1 John 1:5 & John 1:4, 1:9) means “homoousian” is a HUGE stretch.
The LDS idea that the however God is one is also a way in which humans (diciples) can be one is IMO the ONLY thing you can get from the Bible on HOW God is one.
Charity, TOm
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