The Mormon Temple Ceremony

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I try to be objective in research, and purposely stay away from websites that seem to have a clear bias. (i.e. fair, and exmormon.com) Some websites bias isn’t always readily visible, so I try to check more than one source.

But thank you for the compliment.
Can you point me to a website that is unbiased toward the mormons? I would be interested in seeing it. All the websites that have been posted on the mormons threads have been biased. So, it would really be interesting to see the sites that you research from. Also, your posts are rather biased against the lds church. And this must reflect the information that you receive. I don’t remember you ever saying a positive word about mormons or the mormon chuch. Something that would occur from researching from unbiased sites. But that is just my observation…I could be wrong.

Please post the weblinks.
 
This is not exactly true. The apostacy was not defined in one area. It was rather defined as a general apostacy or a great apostacy which would mean wide ranging and an accumulation of many factors. Changes in rites such as what happened in vatican II was never considered. But the histoy of christianity up to 1820 was. And as you know, the first sign was with martin luther who mormons claim was on the right track but the time for a restoration was not quite right, especially in europe which was confirmed by the religious wars which engulfed catholics and protestants in untold bloodshed during the reformation.

I think that it is great that you have found a home in the catholic church. But I will need to respond to points about the lds church and its members that I don’t agree with you about.
You’re misunderstanding what xixx is saying. Mormons frequently say that ordinances were changed from their original form, which is an evidence of the Great Apostasy. For example, in Tad R. Callister’s book, “The Inevitable Apostasy and the Promised Restoration”, the title of his 15th chapter is “Seventh Evidence: Many Ordinances Were Perverted, Others Lost, and New Ones Invented”. He then cites Isaiah 24:5-“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.”

So, Mormons claim that their were changes in the ordinances, from their original form, and this is cited as evidence of the Great Apostasy. The problem is that there are clear changes in the Endowment, with it evolving over time with additions, deletions, etc. (for more on this, read “The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship” by Buerger. Xixx’s final point then comes back up:
**
“What I’m saying is, even if we humor the idea that infant baptism, clerical celibacy, and icon/relic veneration, for example, are indeed all novel and not found in the Apostolic faith, if Jesus grants your church the power to change these with the changing culture and social normative symbology, wouldn’t it follow that the Catholic Church had this power all along?”**
 
Mormonism comes from Freemasonry and Gnosticism. Plain and simple.
 
Can you point me to a website that is unbiased toward the mormons? I would be interested in seeing it. All the websites that have been posted on the mormons threads have been biased. So, it would really be interesting to see the sites that you research from. Also, your posts are rather biased against the lds church. And this must reflect the information that you receive. **I don’t remember you ever saying a positive word about mormons **or the mormon chuch. Something that would occur from researching from unbiased sites. But that is just my observation…I could be wrong.

Please post the weblinks.
Please post links to your positive words about Catholics.
 
Can you point me to a website that is unbiased toward the mormons? I would be interested in seeing it. All the websites that have been posted on the mormons threads have been biased. So, it would really be interesting to see the sites that you research from. Also, your posts are rather biased against the lds church. And this must reflect the information that you receive. I don’t remember you ever saying a positive word about mormons or the mormon chuch. Something that would occur from researching from unbiased sites. But that is just my observation…I could be wrong.

Please post the weblinks.
Speaking the truth about the LDS Church is not biased against Mormons, it is being truthful about them
 
Can you point me to a website that is unbiased toward the mormons? I would be interested in seeing it. All the websites that have been posted on the mormons threads have been biased. So, it would really be interesting to see the sites that you research from. Also, your posts are rather biased against the lds church. And this must reflect the information that you receive. I don’t remember you ever saying a positive word about mormons or the mormon chuch. Something that would occur from researching from unbiased sites. But that is just my observation…I could be wrong.

Please post the weblinks.
LOL, as usual you are wrong. I will address your last statement first. One comment that I remember quite clearly had to do with the way the local mormon churches are set up. I specifically said that maybe the reason their chapel was in the center of the building, with other rooms surrounding it was because Jesus was at the center. Even dianai liked that comment. I even defended not disclosing the temple ceremonies.
To the defense of our Mormon friends.

They make a promise not to discuss these things, just like I promise not to discuss things that are told to me in confidence.

I do everything in my power to keep my promises, and I am sure they look at it the same way.

Whether it is public record or not, a promise is a promise.

I’m on your side on this one Dianaid
How is that shoe leather tasting right about now?

As for the websites I use, I use many. I don’t rely on the first hit I get when I do a search. I also don’t have any of them bookmarked (like you do). Also, with you, it is obvious that anything, or any site that doesn’t show the mormon church in a glowing light is an anti site, or anti reference. But, as you will see below, I even use mormon websites.

One site that I use, is an independent site from the University of North Carolina. Obviously an independent source that has no reason to be biased. But of course, it shows things that are unfavorable to the mormons so you automatically consider it biased, or anti.

ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/index.html

By the way, I have also quoted more than once from the history of the lds church. Is that anti? We know it is biased. One of my favorite things in there is where one of the early prophets admitted that JS killed two people. The best response that I got on that was “he was misinformed.”

boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/Vol_VII Chapter 9

I have also quoted from signaturebooks.com, which is a website that promotes mormon writings. Specifically regarding the claim that the mormon temple ceremonies being in the congressional record. One poster on here swears up and down that it is in there. However, it clearly states that the notion that the temple ceremonies were never read into the record, and any idea of that is merely folklore.

signaturebooks.com/?p=491

That shoe leather must be tasting pretty good right about now.

So, as you can see, you are pretty off base with your assertions. I was also able to bring your deflection right back on topic wasn’t I? After all, this is about the temple ceremonies isn’t it?
 
Forgot one…

We hear alot about Gov Boggs and his extermination order. What we fail to hear is how Sidney Rigdon issued one, a full 3 months before Gov. Boggs. In essence, throwing down the gauntlet.

sidneyrigdon.com/rigd1838.htm

This is a scanned copy of the speech, printed with the church’s approval.

So, again, I use mormon sources too.
 
I believe Dale Broadhurst is a member of the Community of Christ church, aka RLDS.
I believe you are correct, but obviously 'ol Sid was mormon, and those are the words he spouted.

I actually found that link from a video on youtube. The video said that Sid’s speech was published with JS’s approval.
 
I believe you are correct, but obviously 'ol Sid was mormon, and those are the words he spouted.

I actually found that link from a video on youtube. The video said that Sid’s speech was published with JS’s approval.
No doubt. 🙂 When Sid and Joe clashed, it was over power. Sid essentially provided the means for Joe to get it, and once there, Joe wanted it all for himself. If you check out the mormon D&C, a lot of the claimed visions were Sid’s, not Joe’s.

Sid continued claiming visions after Joe’s death, and it is the group who followed him that Emma went with. Those who followed Brigham call those visions false. ha!
 
No doubt. 🙂 When Sid and Joe clashed, it was over power. Sid essentially provided the means for Joe to get it, and once there, Joe wanted it all for himself. If you check out the mormon D&C, a lot of the claimed visions were Sid’s, not Joe’s.

Sid continued claiming visions after Joe’s death, and it is the group who followed him that Emma went with. Those who followed Brigham call those visions false. ha!
lol
 
Not quite. Many mormons were masons and they would have seen a rip off a mile away. I have addressed this issue many times on this forum but the same old same old is used over and over. However, I will again post information about it.

en.fairmormon.org/Temples/Endowment/Freemasonry

Of course, I will not pretend that this information will ever be taken into consideration by other catholic posters but, maybe there is hope that one will read it and think about it. 🙂
If you dig through the sources cited in the materials you linked, the best evidence presented in defense of the LDS view that LDS temple rites are ancient is that provided by Margaret Barker in her work on the original Jewish Temple. I’ve read all of her articles and her most important texts (Great High Priest, Temple Theology, Temple Themes in Christian Worship). I won’t go so far as to say that the F.A.R.M.S. folks that FairLDS relies on “twist” Barkers work, but they do cherry pick her findings to support the LDS view. They focus on the minimal parallels between the ancient Jewish temple and the LDS temple, ignoring the other, far more plentiful parallels between the ancient temple and the earliest Christian liturgies - which are still preserved the the Tridentine Rite and especially the Orthodox Divine Liturgy. It’s ironic, but after becoming acquainted with Barker’s work (suggested to me by an LDS friend of Nibley’s, hilariously enough, who thought it would help me see the divinity behind LDS temple rituals) I was convinced that BYU/FARMS/FairLDS claims were specious, left the LDS church and became a Catholic. I’m sure the guy who pointed me in Barker’s direction would be shocked and dismayed at the result. But to me, the evidences Barker brings to bear shows an obvious progression from ancient Judaism to Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Mormonism is left hanging in the wind as a late-comer copying mere memories of the ancient Jewish temple rites transmitted to Joseph Smith in Nauvoo through his exposure to Kabbalah at the hands of Alexander Neibaur, Joseph’s Hebrew tutor and a Kabbalist, and through Joseph’s exposure to Masonry, which itself is a product of the movement (which included rosicruianism and the rise of alchemy) that emerged after the appearance of the kabbalistic writings in Europe in the medieval era. Kabbala itself contains Jewish memories of the temple in Jerusalam, but corrupted and filtered through the rabbinic movement and memories of the second (Herod’s) temple. It’s a controversial claim, but Barker asserts that the first Christians (who became Catholics/Orthodox) preserved memories of the first (Solomon’s) temple rites and passed them into their liturgies, which you can still experience in slightly modified form today. In fact, Barker claims that everything (Second Temple rites and the rabbinic movement of modern Judaism that followed from it, gnosticism, kabbalah, Catholic/Orthodox liturgies, even Islam) all derive from memories of the first temple in Jerusalem. It is her argument that it was the first Christians, beginning with Jesus himself through the apostles to Catholicism/Orthodoxy, who best preserved the original rites and theology of the first temple. The BYU/FARMS people who claim to love Barker so much and depend on her to support all of their recent apologetics in defense of the LDS temple ignore all of this “inconvenient to Mormonism” info in her work and cherry pick only what they find to be useful to support their views. It’s all specious work, and that’s the kind of “scholarship” available in the links you provided to defend the LDS point of view.

NS
 
If you dig through the sources cited in the materials you linked, the best evidence presented in defense of the LDS view that LDS temple rites are ancient is that provided by Margaret Barker in her work on the original Jewish Temple. I’ve read all of her articles and her most important texts (Great High Priest, Temple Theology, Temple Themes in Christian Worship). I won’t go so far as to say that the F.A.R.M.S. folks that FairLDS relies on “twist” Barkers work, but they do cherry pick her findings to support the LDS view. They focus on the minimal parallels between the ancient Jewish temple and the LDS temple, ignoring the other, far more plentiful parallels between the ancient temple and the earliest Christian liturgies - which are still preserved the the Tridentine Rite and especially the Orthodox Divine Liturgy. It’s ironic, but after becoming acquainted with Barker’s work (suggested to me by an LDS friend of Nibley’s, hilariously enough, who thought it would help me see the divinity behind LDS temple rituals) I was convinced that BYU/FARMS/FairLDS claims were specious, left the LDS church and became a Catholic. I’m sure the guy who pointed me in Barker’s direction would be shocked and dismayed at the result. But to me, the evidences Barker brings to bear shows an obvious progression from ancient Judaism to Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Mormonism is left hanging in the wind as a late-comer copying mere memories of the ancient Jewish temple rites transmitted to Joseph Smith in Nauvoo through his exposure to Kabbalah at the hands of Alexander Neibaur, Joseph’s Hebrew tutor and a Kabbalist, and through Joseph’s exposure to Masonry, which itself is a product of the movement (which included rosicruianism and the rise of alchemy) that emerged after the appearance of the kabbalistic writings in Europe in the medieval era. Kabbala itself contains Jewish memories of the temple in Jerusalam, but corrupted and filtered through the rabbinic movement and memories of the second (Herod’s) temple. It’s a controversial claim, but Barker asserts that the first Christians (who became Catholics/Orthodox) preserved memories of the first (Solomon’s) temple rites and passed them into their liturgies, which you can still experience in slightly modified form today. In fact, Barker claims that everything (Second Temple rites and the rabbinic movement of modern Judaism that followed from it, gnosticism, kabbalah, Catholic/Orthodox liturgies, even Islam) all derive from memories of the first temple in Jerusalem. It is her argument that it was the first Christians, beginning with Jesus himself through the apostles to Catholicism/Orthodoxy, who best preserved the original rites and theology of the first temple. The BYU/FARMS people who claim to love Barker so much and depend on her to support all of their recent apologetics in defense of the LDS temple ignore all of this “inconvenient to Mormonism” info in her work and cherry pick only what they find to be useful to support their views. It’s all specious work, and that’s the kind of “scholarship” available in the links you provided to defend the LDS point of view.

NS
Thanks for this! I have Barker’s Temple Themes in Christian Worship and The Great High Priest, but haven’t read them in full yet. I do see that some Mormon apologists tend to focus heavily on her work, claiming that it provides further evidence of the ancient Hebrew origin of Mormonism.

And I agree, when Barker was writing books like “Temple Themes”, she obviously wasn’t thinking about Mormonism as the “Christian Worship” that she was studying, but the more ancient Catholic and Orthodox liturgies.

You may be interested in this:

articulifidei.blogspot.com/2007/11/mormonism-and-margaret-barker.html
articulifidei.blogspot.com/2007/12/mormonism-and-margaret-barker-part-2.html
articulifidei.blogspot.com/2007/12/mormonism-and-margaret-barker-part-3.html
articulifidei.blogspot.com/2008/01/mormonism-and-margaret-barker-part-4.html
 
Thanks for this! I have Barker’s Temple Themes in Christian Worship and The Great High Priest, but haven’t read them in full yet. I do see that some Mormon apologists tend to focus heavily on her work, claiming that it provides further evidence of the ancient Hebrew origin of Mormonism.

And I agree, when Barker was writing books like “Temple Themes”, she obviously wasn’t thinking about Mormonism as the “Christian Worship” that she was studying, but the more ancient Catholic and Orthodox liturgies.

You may be interested in this:

articulifidei.blogspot.com/2007/11/mormonism-and-margaret-barker.html
articulifidei.blogspot.com/2007/12/mormonism-and-margaret-barker-part-2.html
articulifidei.blogspot.com/2007/12/mormonism-and-margaret-barker-part-3.html
articulifidei.blogspot.com/2008/01/mormonism-and-margaret-barker-part-4.html
I have not researched this, but I read or heard once that the Masons claim that their temple ceremony is based on the early temple…so, if the LDS temple ceremony resembles, it makes sense that the LDS would resemble it since Joe stole it from them
 
LOL, as usual you are wrong. I will address your last statement first. One comment that I remember quite clearly had to do with the way the local mormon churches are set up. I specifically said that maybe the reason their chapel was in the center of the building, with other rooms surrounding it was because Jesus was at the center. Even dianai liked that comment. I even defended not disclosing the temple ceremonies.

How is that shoe leather tasting right about now?

As for the websites I use, I use many. I don’t rely on the first hit I get when I do a search. I also don’t have any of them bookmarked (like you do). Also, with you, it is obvious that anything, or any site that doesn’t show the mormon church in a glowing light is an anti site, or anti reference. But, as you will see below, I even use mormon websites.

One site that I use, is an independent site from the University of North Carolina. Obviously an independent source that has no reason to be biased. But of course, it shows things that are unfavorable to the mormons so you automatically consider it biased, or anti.

ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/index.html
The above website is highly suspect as I have pointed out before. Since when is a public university encouraging people to leave a particular faith? And should tax payers money go into such an university where mormons also attend? And where is the separation of church and state?

Conclusion: the website link is highly suspect. And it certainly is not unbiased.
 
…so, if the LDS temple ceremony resembles, it makes sense that the LDS would resemble it since Joe stole it from them
If you say so…:rolleyes: By the way, what would you say if mormons and protestants would refer to the pope as Benny? Would you report such posters? Just curious to know. 🙂
 
The above website is highly suspect as I have pointed out before. Since when is a public university encouraging people to leave a particular faith? And should tax payers money go into such an university where mormons also attend? And where is the separation of church and state?

Conclusion: the website link is highly suspect. And it certainly is not unbiased.
Show me where that website is encourgaging people to leave a particular faith.

Why do you continually try to equate presenting facts with bias? They have merely presented the facts without any spin. Any reasonably intelligent person can read the information there, and make a determination for themselves. That is not something that can be said of the sources you use however.

You are merely trying to use your standard tactic that if it doesn’t show mormonism or JS in a glowing light, it must be anti. You really should try something different because that line isn’t working.

Also, how do you know any tax dollars went into their research? It very well could have been done by independent study. One of the nice things about public education is there isn’t nearly the amount of censorship that you would find at a private school like BYU.

Don’t you have anything else to say about your other accusations? You did see where I defended mormonism right? You also saw where I used mormon sources right?

What I see is your failure to admit to your errors and attempted distortion.

BTW, “suspect” does not equal “biased”. But good try.
 
No doubt. 🙂 When Sid and Joe clashed, it was over power. Sid essentially provided the means for Joe to get it, and once there, Joe wanted it all for himself. If you check out the mormon D&C, a lot of the claimed visions were Sid’s, not Joe’s.

Sid continued claiming visions after Joe’s death, and it is the group who followed him that Emma went with. Those who followed Brigham call those visions false. ha!
Emma did not follow sid. In fact, she just wanted to be left alone in her grieving. It was not until much later that she was approached by former members to allow her son to become leader of what became known as the Reorganized lds church.

And there was no clash of power between sid and joe. At any moment, sid could have spilled the beans, but didn’t. In fact, on his deathbed infront of his family, he claimed again that he did not write the book of mormon. And even his wife denied that sid wrote the book of mormon.

Such is life…🙂
 
The best interview that I came across about mormons and masons is the interview with greg kearney a mormon and a master mason. He goes into the history and the similiarites and the unsimiliarities.

mormonstories.org/?p=14

As I have said before, many of the early mormons were masons and they would have recognized it if Joe stole from the mason ceremony. But…no one to my knowledge left the lds church because of the temple ceremony being ‘stolen’ from the masons. Conclusion: equating the mason ceremony with the lds ceremony is a red herring. 🙂
 
If you say so…:rolleyes: By the way, what would you say if mormons and protestants would refer to the pope as Benny? Would you report such posters? Just curious to know. 🙂
His name was Joe, was it not? I have read where he was called Joe frequently. I dilike typing, so I shorten when i can (i.e B of M, etc.)

Now, since the name “Benedict” was taken from an earlier Pope, I doubt you will find where anyone has ever called the Pope “Benny”, so your example, like most of your examples, is a red herring.

But, should you and the other Mormons wish to call him benny, go ahead.

I will call Smith “Joe”
 
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