The Mormon View of Jesus Christ

[RebeccaJ]

I am being told I was lied too by many Mornon friends including my LDS grandmother.

That’s the usual response I get from Mormons too. Apparently, believing what you were taught by Mormons in a Mormon church isn’t what we were supposed to do.

But then, I do agree, “don’t believe what Mormons teach” is a very good approach to Mormonism.

 

[Todd520]

I am being told I was lied too by many Mornon friends including my LDS grandmother.
That’s not what I asked, I asked those questions for a specific reason. yes or no easy questions. You can go ahead and answer as well. Just yes or know.

You post the Christian Creed and cross out (Christ Universal / His very Body) ?
That was wrong to do here at this forum . Where inside of you did this come from?

I crossed out the only part of the creed that might be confusing for an LDS.
I think LDS also support the communion of Saints if it is defined as: the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, and the souls already in the afterlife.

Again, your questions are not simple yes no answers, but I will provide you with links and specific answers if you PM your top couple to me.

 

[catholic-rcia]

I crossed out the only part of the creed that might be confusing for an LDS.
I think LDS also support the communion of Saints if it is defined as: the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, and the souls already in the afterlife.

Again, your questions are not simple yes no answers, but I will provide you with links and specific answers if you PM your top couple to me.

Do any Christians here find these questions hard to answer yes or no too? I don’t need an explanation from you Todd. I would not have to explain my answers to other Christians or have them go to other links in order to be able to answer them. Pretty 101 as it should be. By the way maybe you could explain the CS Lewis quote you use when compared to the Joseph Smith Quote I included. It has the roots of your very faith, where it began, unless I have been lied to.

Do you believe that there is anything good about you apart from Jesus?

Would you still be a good person without Him?

Do you believe Satan to be the spirit brother of Jesus?

Do you believe that God the Father has a Father?
Do you believe that as man is God once was?

Do you believe Jesus took the sins of the world in Him including your own and nailed them to the Cross and died with them in Him to save you?

Do you believe that Jesus is the only eternal Son of God, no others like Him in all of the heavens?

Do you believe that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega?

Do you believe that you were created through Him and for Him?

Do you believe that Jesus has always been, no beginning like you or me?

Todd520: "**I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person’s **

**religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently, **
**on the faults of other people’s religions, he is in a bad condition." **
-C.S. Lewis (Collected Letters Vol. 3 p. 209).

Is this certain personage below in a good or bad condition according to the quote from CS Lewis?..and who teaches the Great Apostacy? as I was taught as a youngster.

…I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that **all their creeds were an abomination in his sight **… He again forbade me to join with any of them (Joseph Smith 2:18-20).

" The Catholic Church is not built on the fall of another Church, it was built by Jesus because we are all fallen" - Rich Horrell / UtahMission

Todd there can be no compromise between Mormons and Christians, its too black and white. Even on Moral issues because Catholic beleive that evryhting that is moral is of Christ not us. Its the separation from the Most Holy Trinity that is the biggest problem the LDS face. God have mercy on your souls. Unless you are willing to give up your very self to Jesus you will have no life. We do it through Confession of our sins. Through this kind of truth.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Whats the LDS belief on hell?

 

[Todd520]

Catholic, have you bothered to read the whole thread? I will give you top of mind answers that may not reflect official doctrine.

Do you believe that there is anything good about you apart from Jesus? Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit guides me

Would you still be a good person without Him? Same as above

Do you believe Satan to be the spirit brother of Jesus? I believe we are all created by God and so are all part of the same family. In this sense you and I are brothers.
Do you believe that God the Father has a Father? No
Do you believe that as man is God once was? No
Do you believe Jesus took the sins of the world in Him including your own and nailed them to the Cross and died with them in Him to save you? Because of Jesus’ Attonement, all people will be resurrected, and those who obey His gospel will receive the gift of eternal life with God.

Do you believe that Jesus is the only eternal Son of God, no others like Him in all of the heavens? Yes, Jesus is the only begotten son of God

Do you believe that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega? Yes (saw it earlier in this thread)Do you believe that you were created through Him and for Him? please expand to a full thought

Do you believe that Jesus has always been, no beginning like you or me? Yes

 

[dianaiad]

I guess it is possible that I was lied to. But how can they all be telling me the same lies?
All of the Mormons who come to the Catholic Church here in Utah tell me the same things about what they know to be true. I have been with them for 12 years now.
Two of which our LDS Bishops daughters. One from Grace Idaho and the other from Logan. They were very much involved with your church. Would they not be telling us the truth? And all of the others?

Please answer these questions yes or no so you can clear up what I have come to beleive about your Church.

Do you believe that there is anything good about you apart from Jesus?

Would you still be a good person without Him?

Do you believe Satan to be the spirit brother of Jesus?

Do you believe that God the Father has a Father?

Do you believe that as man is God once was?

Do you believe Jesus took the sins of the world in Him including your own and nailed them to the Cross and died with them in Him to save you?

Do you believe that Jesus is the only eternal Son of God, no others like Him in all of the heavens?

Do you believe that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega?

Do you believe that you were created through Him and for Him?

Do you believe that Jesus has always been, no beginning like you or me?

Just yes or no

www.utahmission.com

None of those are ‘yes or no’ questions, my friend.

 

[dianaiad]

I am being told I was lied too by many Mornon friends including my LDS grandmother.
That’s not what I asked, I asked those questions for a specific reason. yes or no easy questions. You can go ahead and answer as well. Just yes or know.

You post the Christian Creed and cross out (Christ Universal / His very Body) ?
That was wrong to do here at this forum . Where inside of you did this come from?

I don’t know anybody who said you were ‘lied to,’ by LDS friends or by your grandmother. I am, however, out and out telling you that you have our beliefs wrong, and those you have RIGHT are taken so out of context as to be wrong.

Let us take “Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.”

Tell me; what is your first thought when you hear/see that? What is it about that sentence that disturbs you, or makes you gasp in outrage?

I’ll tell you one thing: the first time someone said that “Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers,” in this horrified tone of voice–I was utterly bewildered. I thought, yeah, they are…so?

I couldn’t for the life of me figure out where the horror of it lay.

After all, they are siblings only in the sense that we are ALL of us children of God. However, none of us (including Jesus) is Satan’s sibling in the flesh–we have been born and have mortal bodies, and are siblings because we are Adam and Eve’s descendents physically–Satan does not, and will never, be that. As well, Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God–that is, while He is OUR brother spiritually and physically–being children of God and being descendents of our first parents, He is the ONLY person whose physical, mortal Father is God the Father–and in that sense, He has NO siblings. That leaves Him at quite a remove from Satan.

Still, since Satan is also a spiritual son of God, no matter what he did, then yes, Jesus and Satan are brothers–as are all of us brothers and sisters, even the most evil of us–and the best of us.

The argument, then, isn’t about any special relationship between Satan and Jesus, except as eternal enemies, perhaps. It IS an argument about creation, and who WE are. Children, literally, of our Father in Heaven.

…and I find this National Inquirer method of attacking LDS doctrine to be beyond contempt, actually—right up there with saying that Catholics are cannibals because they believe that they literally eat the flesh of Jesus when taking the Eucharist. The thing is, on one level, that’s exactly true----but on the very much larger, more meaningful and theological level, it’s not; it’s actually a very smelly red herring.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Your serious? Those are all yes and no answers. Wheres the stumbling block?

 

[dianaiad]

Whats the LDS belief on hell?

A. There is one.
B. It’s hard to get into.

Of course, ‘hell’ can also be a relative concept–the further away one gets from God the Father, the less–joy?–one might have. However, we beleive that even the lowest degree to which most people are going to is better than here; by a lot.

There is, however, a very special place reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin; denial of the Holy Ghost. Now me, I think that those who do that are quite literally spitting in God’s eye–that is, someone who, in full and absolute knowledge of exactly what he is doing, tells the Holy Ghost–who he absolutely knows is telling the truth–that he doesn’t want any part of it. This person deliberately and with full knowledge joins Satan and crew.

These are those who suffer the 'second death." spoken of. My own personal opinion, of course, but that has GOT to be hard to do; very few, if any, human being has that level of absolute knowledge regarding the Holy Ghost. Other people have different opinions. I hope I"m right. …these are the folks who are cast out completely from any hope of God’s influence; ‘outer darkness,’ indeed.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t know anybody who said you were ‘lied to,’ by LDS friends or by your grandmother. I am, however, out and out telling you that you have our beliefs wrong, and those you have RIGHT are taken so out of context as to be wrong.

Let us take “Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.”

Tell me; what is your first thought when you hear/see that? What is it about that sentence that disturbs you, or makes you gasp in outrage?

I’ll tell you one thing: the first time someone said that “Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers,” in this horrified tone of voice–I was utterly bewildered. I thought, yeah, they are…so?

I couldn’t for the life of me figure out where the horror of it lay.

After all, they are siblings only in the sense that we are ALL of us children of God. However, none of us (including Jesus) is Satan’s sibling in the flesh–we have been born and have mortal bodies, and are siblings because we are Adam and Eve’s descendents physically–Satan does not, and will never, be that. As well, Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God–that is, while He is OUR brother spiritually and physically–being children of God and being descendents of our first parents, He is the ONLY person whose physical, mortal Father is God the Father–and in that sense, He has NO siblings. That leaves Him at quite a remove from Satan.

Still, since Satan is also a spiritual son of God, no matter what he did, then yes, Jesus and Satan are brothers–as are all of us brothers and sisters, even the most evil of us–and the best of us.

The argument, then, isn’t about any special relationship between Satan and Jesus, except as eternal enemies, perhaps. It IS an argument about creation, and who WE are. Children, literally, of our Father in Heaven.

…and I find this National Inquirer method of attacking LDS doctrine to be beyond contempt, actually—right up there with saying that Catholics are cannibals because they believe that they literally eat the flesh of Jesus when taking the Eucharist. The thing is, on one level, that’s exactly true----but on the very much larger, more meaningful and theological level, it’s not; it’s actually a very smelly red herring.

satan was an archangel. Has nothing to do with Christ being brothers.

 

[dianaiad]

Your serious? Those are all yes and no answers. Wheres the stumbling block?

They are ‘yes or no’ answers the way “Are Catholics cannibals?” is. See my post on the one about Jesus and Satan being brothers.

To be honest, every one of those questions is a false dichotomy. It’s like asking asking 'well, is the sky blue…yes or no?" on a very cloudy, rainy day. The answer is ‘yes,’ because though clouds are mostly deep gray-blue, they are still sorta blue–and certainly if there were no clouds in the sky, it would be blue—but the connotation of the question is not really about simple color, is it?

I know that no Catholic would put up with a similar twisted list about his or her own beliefs.

 

[dianaiad]

satan was an archangel. Has nothing to do with Christ being brothers.

Well, here’s the thing, Gary. We believe that ‘angel’ is a job description, not a species classification. God created ALL of us…all things, all beings, everything that lives. In this sense, then, we are all siblings.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So wheres the verse in the Bible that specifically states this brotherhood?

 

[dianaiad]

So wheres the verse in the Bible that specifically states this brotherhood?

The Book of Job counts Satan as one of the 'sons of God," in Job 1:6. While Luke and Rev. both speak of his fall, neither takes that ‘son of God’ status from him; that’s not an assigned title, after all, but fact; God is the spiritual Father and Creator of all things. Therefore—all siblings.

This isn’t new to Chrsitians (or even Catholic Christians, for that matter.) Giovanni Papinni quoted Lactantius…“Before creating the world, God produced a spirit like himself replete with the virtues of the Father. Later He made another, in whom the mark of divine origin was erased, because this one was besmirched by the poison of jealousy and turned therefore from good to evil. He was jealous of his older brother who, remaining united with the Father, insured his affection unto himself. This being who from good became bad is called devil by the Greeks.”.

Papini concludes that, “According to Lactantius, Lucifer would have been nothing less than the brother of the logos, of the word, ie. of the second person of the trinity” (Giovanni Papini, The Devil, p. 81). (the previous information from here: lightplanet.com/response/answers/lucifer.htm. You can read the full article there.)

 

[GaryTaylor]

What also isn’t new to Cathlics is the 4th Lateran Council. Have you ever read it?

This a quite an extrodinary leap to conclusions. Its border line perposterous. You do realize this?

What I find most facinating is you could take this hugh leap of faith here. But debate one single word in the Bible over Marys Virginity? I find that facinating. But I suppose I shouldn’t the human mind never cease’s to amaze me.

 

[JHow]

Papini and Lactantius ?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the Sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

Not sure how you get brother of Jesus out of this.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Papini and Lactantius ?

Yup, were quoting a Italian journalist from 1940-1950? I could be wrong on the date but not by much.

Thats about as reliable as the Divinci Code.

 

[JHow]

Giovanni Papinni quoted Lactantius…“Before creating the world, God produced a spirit like himself replete with the virtues of the Father. Later He made another, in whom the mark of divine origin was erased, because this one was besmirched by the poison of jealousy and turned therefore from good to evil. He was jealous of his older brother who, remaining united with the Father, insured his affection unto himself. This being who from good became bad is called devil by the Greeks.”

Ah, this guy, from the Original Catholic Encyclopedia:

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Lucius_Cecilius_Firmianus_Lactantius

“The strength and the weakness of Lactantius are nowhere better shown than in this work. The beauty of the style, the choice and aptness of the terminology, cannot hide the author’s lack of grasp on Christian principles and his almost utter ignorance of Scripture. The “dualistic and panegyrical” passages which have been such a puzzle to students of Lactantius are manifestly not from his pen, but from that of some one who lived close to his time, probably a rhetorician of Trier.”

and this one…

“Lactantius carries us into the fourth century. He was an elegant and eloquent writer, but like Arnobius was not a well-instructed Christian.”

and so forth…

“We have actually Christian writers, in East and West, such as Arnobius, and to some extent Lactantius and Julius Africanus, who show that they are only half instructed in the Faith.”

 

[dianaiad]

What also isn’t new to Cathlics is the 4th Lateran Council. Have you ever read it?

This a quite an extrodinary leap to conclusions. Its border line perposterous. You do realize this?

What I find most facinating is you could take this hugh leap of faith here. But debate one single word in the Bible over Marys Virginity? I find that facinating. But I suppose I shouldn’t the human mind never cease’s to amaze me.

You asked for biblical evidence. I gave you that evidence which is found in the bible. Of course we believe this because of material that is NOT in the bible…the Book of Moses, for instance. However, UNLIKE the Catholics who seem to have a problem with this concept, I don’t expect you to accept this idea as gospel truth; just that you understand that WE believe what we believe, not what others are misrepresenting it as.

For instance, when Catholics site Holy Tradition as a prooftext for the perpetual virginity of Mary, I have not had a single problem with the fact that they DO believe this, or why. The problem lay in the fact that many of them seem to think that Holy Tradition applies to me–that I must believe this because Catholic Holy Tradition says so.

Sorry.

This is different; I’m not trying to prove to you that our idea regarding the relationship between God, HIs Only Begotten Son Jesus and Lucifer is 'true." I’m simply correcting inaccurate portrayals of what it actually IS.

…please note; I wasn’t asked to provide proof from anywhere other than the bible, y’know, so that’s what I did.

Don’t move the goal posts.