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dianaiad
Guest
WEll, one must then wonder; which one is 'half-instructed?" Remember, my friend, our opinion of the direction the church took.
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JHow
Guest
I fully admit I did not know Lactantius until I found him in the Encyclopedia here, but he didn’t exactly receive the rousing endorsement of the editors, did he? I guess his name comes up if you are debating this topic.WEll, one must then wonder; which one is 'half-instructed?" Remember, my friend, our opinion of the direction the church took.
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shagenbarth
Guest
What we have to remember here, folks, is that the LDS church DOES NOT have the same vocabulary, the same Bible (even though they may reference the KJV they largely rely on the BOM), and the same belief in the Trinity as ALL other Christian Churches. We can debate and ask them questions such as these quoted from an earlier thread…but, to what avail?
Do you believe that there is anything good about you apart from Jesus? Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit guides me
Would you still be a good person without Him? Same as above
Do you believe Satan to be the spirit brother of Jesus? I believe we are all created by God and so are all part of the same family. In this sense you and I are brothers.
Do you believe that God the Father has a Father? No
Do you believe that as man is God once was? No
Do you believe Jesus took the sins of the world in Him including your own and nailed them to the Cross and died with them in Him to save you? Because of Jesus’ Attonement, all people will be resurrected, and those who obey His gospel will receive the gift of eternal life with God.
Although they will answer that they, for example, can be a good person WITHOUT Jesus, they acknowledge that they CAN be, with the Holy Spirit’s help. What they don’t recognize, or understand, is that Jesus IS the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus IS God…They are inseparable, and they (LDS) don’t understand that.
Now, as for the following quote:
I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that **all their creeds were an abomination in his sight **… He again forbade me to join with any of them (Joseph Smith 2:18-20).
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I find it incredible, that no one is able to recognize that perhaps, Joseph Smith was duped by Satan in an attempt to send those astray who were foolish enough to follow. When Joe was instructed to not join any of the Christian Churches because they were all an “abomination,” I wonder, then, who they were an “abomination” to? Let’s think about it for a second. Who, would want there to be such a departure from the Christian Churches of the day (or even today?) Who would want to prevent many to enjoy the Glory of God because they could not enter into heaven because of their beliefs and/or practices? Even though our Christian churches do not agree on everything, they pretty much agree on the IMPORTANT issues. (I know…a subjective statement.)
Again, I ask all to read 2 Corinthians, Chapter 11, at least verses 13-14. In this passage, Paul talks about false gods, and how, even if an angel of light should come to you, claiming to have another gospel, do not follow him, for he is not of God. (I’m paraphrasing here.) Paul also leaves a pretty stern warning for those who DO follow this other gospel, or testament.
In conclusion, Christ said that He will not leave us orphaned. He will not abandon us. He died to SAVE US ALL. He would NOT have created a church several millenia ago, only to abandon it because it fell into “great apostacy” as the Mormon church contends. The Church has been intact since the day of its creation, and it has never fallen.
I continue to pray for those in darkness, that they will hear the truth, and recognize it when it is presented to them.
Peace to you all.
Do you believe that there is anything good about you apart from Jesus? Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit guides me
Would you still be a good person without Him? Same as above
Do you believe Satan to be the spirit brother of Jesus? I believe we are all created by God and so are all part of the same family. In this sense you and I are brothers.
Do you believe that God the Father has a Father? No
Do you believe that as man is God once was? No
Do you believe Jesus took the sins of the world in Him including your own and nailed them to the Cross and died with them in Him to save you? Because of Jesus’ Attonement, all people will be resurrected, and those who obey His gospel will receive the gift of eternal life with God.
Although they will answer that they, for example, can be a good person WITHOUT Jesus, they acknowledge that they CAN be, with the Holy Spirit’s help. What they don’t recognize, or understand, is that Jesus IS the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus IS God…They are inseparable, and they (LDS) don’t understand that.
Now, as for the following quote:
I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that **all their creeds were an abomination in his sight **… He again forbade me to join with any of them (Joseph Smith 2:18-20).
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I find it incredible, that no one is able to recognize that perhaps, Joseph Smith was duped by Satan in an attempt to send those astray who were foolish enough to follow. When Joe was instructed to not join any of the Christian Churches because they were all an “abomination,” I wonder, then, who they were an “abomination” to? Let’s think about it for a second. Who, would want there to be such a departure from the Christian Churches of the day (or even today?) Who would want to prevent many to enjoy the Glory of God because they could not enter into heaven because of their beliefs and/or practices? Even though our Christian churches do not agree on everything, they pretty much agree on the IMPORTANT issues. (I know…a subjective statement.)
Again, I ask all to read 2 Corinthians, Chapter 11, at least verses 13-14. In this passage, Paul talks about false gods, and how, even if an angel of light should come to you, claiming to have another gospel, do not follow him, for he is not of God. (I’m paraphrasing here.) Paul also leaves a pretty stern warning for those who DO follow this other gospel, or testament.
In conclusion, Christ said that He will not leave us orphaned. He will not abandon us. He died to SAVE US ALL. He would NOT have created a church several millenia ago, only to abandon it because it fell into “great apostacy” as the Mormon church contends. The Church has been intact since the day of its creation, and it has never fallen.
I continue to pray for those in darkness, that they will hear the truth, and recognize it when it is presented to them.
Peace to you all.
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catholic-rcia
Guest
Shagenbarth, you saved me the time to respond. Praise God. Truth has no favorites whether Catholic or Mormon. You brought forth truth. I hope it sinks in to those Like me who need this truth.
In Christ
Rich
www.utahmission.com
In Christ
Rich
www.utahmission.com
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Todd520
Guest
shagenbarth,
trick questions deserve trick answers - “the Holy Spirit guides me”
If the question implied there was no Jesus or no God, then I ignored the hypothetical assertation.
If the question inquired on the role of Jesus, I ignored it and confirmed how God communicates to me.
You were correct in identifying there is a word definition gap between LDS an RCC. With this in mind,
it’s much more constructive for us all to ask clear and concise questions that don’t tee of usage differences.
trick questions deserve trick answers - “the Holy Spirit guides me”
If the question implied there was no Jesus or no God, then I ignored the hypothetical assertation.
If the question inquired on the role of Jesus, I ignored it and confirmed how God communicates to me.
You were correct in identifying there is a word definition gap between LDS an RCC. With this in mind,
it’s much more constructive for us all to ask clear and concise questions that don’t tee of usage differences.
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catholic-rcia
Guest
Dear shagenbarth
No trick questions here, you nailed it.
Different Holy Spirit / Different God / Different Jesus.
The questions I asked earlier have yes or no answers for a Christian that understands the basics of our Christian faith. All Christian denominations.
Its interesting to see where and how the spin starts. It’s very clear, yet it starts to become blurred. Hell I hear is the same way, without God you can never really put your finger on anything. Once you think you have something figured out it moves in another direction. Things that should be clear are not.
Praise God for our Catholic Faith.
Its clarity in all things, even in the mysteries that we have trust, to be fully revealed in the proper time, especially through Jesus who gives us this clarity through His Holy Spirit, His Body, His Church. He is our very breath as it is Him whom breathes us. He asks us to pick up the Cross and follow Him. It is good to be in a home that has Crosses to pick up.
In Christ
Rich
www.chooseyourcross.com
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Todd520
Guest
My apologies, i saw them differently and thus gave qualified answers to many of the questions
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dianaiad
Guest
In other words, they are ‘yes or no questions’ for Christians who already agree with you. Since that is so, why bother asking them?
I’m quite certain that you would not appreciate my heartfelt agreement with you–applying your words to YOUR beliefs.
Ok, which is it…everything is clear, or everything isn’t, but you have faith that the murky stuff will be cleared up later?
…and if that’s OK for you, to have mysteries that you have faith in, and will be cleared up later, why isn’t it OK for others to have them, as well?
Sauce, goose, gander?
I understand the concept of the religious mystery. What I do NOT understand is how one group can accept the concept in their own faith tradition, and refuse to accept it in someone else’s–to the point of the mockery and disdain you have exhibited here?
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shagenbarth
Guest
When Catholics (or even Protestant Christians) say “Priest” and when LDS say “priest” we are talking about two vastly different things. So, it’s not unusual for you to say “mystery” and for Christians to say, “mystery” and mean totally different things too. Mary conceiving Jesus by the Holy Spirit is a mystery to Christians. Christ dying on the cross and then rising again three days later is a mystery to Christians. We cannot fully understand these mysteries, but accept them as faith and trust that understanding will come when our time comes to join Jesus in Heaven. I fully understand and accept that LDS members have a faith that relies on a “burning in the bosom” rather than on fact or reason. What’s the definition of faith, anyway? (rhetorical question!)
Are you a truth-seeker? I have to believe that you are in order to venture out into a forum that is not of your faith, to try to argue your beliefs and try to understand that of another.
Please forgive me for the attitude you must have felt in my earlier post. It is not disdain that I feel, rather it is worry for my friends who are LDS members, and for all the members of your church, as well as those who will encounter missionaries trying to convert them to your faith. Why does your church send out missionaries? It’s to spread your faith, is it not? To teach the “truth” as your church sees it. It’s the same here.
Along that line, I cannot help but wonder why no LDS member has responded to my query and request to read 2 Corinthians 11: 1-15? How do you interpret that text? How would your church? Please help me to understand…I have to assume that because it has not been addressed that this is a very tough point for your church to argue. I am not trying to be disrespectful. I am trying to understand, and possibly provide an opportunity for you and your church members to think. Jesus said, “I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father, except through Me.” Are you so sure then, that at the end of your days, you were right and you followed the right Testament, the right Christ, the right Father, the right Holy Spirit?
I am not trying to force my opinions down your gullet. I have not said, “you must believe as I do.” I am gently asking for you to read a passage of the Bible, think about it, and then tell me what you think.
I will patiently wait for your reply. In the meantime, I will continue to pray for you, earnestly, that you will continue to be a truth-seeker, and to not simply push these things to the side because they are too tough a subject to deal with.
Peace to you, sincerely…
S.
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catholic-rcia
Guest
**How would you describe a religouse mystery? **
P.S
I do love the LDS with Christ love, I love you as well sincerely…Really I do
**Rich **
**www.utahmission.com **
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ParkerD
Guest
Shagenbarth,
I have not been following this thread, but noticed that you want an answer about 2 Corinthians 11:1-15.
First, about your LDS member friends, there is no need to “fear for them.” You might try and figure out why it is you think you need to fear for them. I don’t think they “fear for you.” As long as a person is repenting with Christ’s help so they don’t stay in the same trap day after day and week after week and year after year, then they are going to be improving their lives and don’t need to be “feared for.” Those who don’t, can be encouraged through example or through words of loving encouragement, but don’t need to be “feared for” since this life is all about freedom of choice anyway and conveying that they are being “feared for” is a way of seeking to decrease their freedom of choice and make them feel “forced into belief.” Forcing someone into belief is ultimately not going to help them, because then their belief isn’t heartfelt.
The LDS use the KJV translation of the Bible, as you may be aware. It is always a little different than more modern translations, but it is greatly reliable and has a beautiful use of the English language.
Verse 15 has a completely different meaning in the King James Version of the Bible, as follows:
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
That verse ought to remind the reader of some of the following other New Testament verses:
Rev. 20: 12-13
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Matt. 16: 27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
It also ought to remind the reader of Jesus’ teachings when the Pharisees accused Him of not being “of God.” He responded that a “house divided against itself shall not stand”. He repeatedly taught “ye shall know them by their fruits.”
So your LDS friends are not only not caused to “fear” when you say that you “fear for them,” but they being familiar with these clear Biblical teachings look around and “know them by their fruits” and know that “he shall reward every man according to his works” and that all the talk in the world that says “you have to believe this certain way that we believe or you need to fear” is non-Biblical, and is directly contrary to what the Savior taught.
Another similar important teaching is:
Matt. 7: 21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
So that is why seeking the Spirit and getting the Spirit is so important every day of our lives. When we get the Holy Spirit into our lives daily, we will be finding ways to “do the Father’s will” and will be following the Savior in doing those things that really are heart-felt acts of love, and our words will also be words of love.
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zerinus
Guest
That proves what? Assuming that you are right, that could only mean that your definition of “Priest” is incorrect, because we know that ours is.
It means what it says. There is nothing complicated about that passage that it should need “interpreting”. I understand by it whatever the author intended me to understand by it. Perhaps you should start by telling us what you want us to understand by it, and why. Then we might be getting somewhere.
Sure! Why shouldn’t I be?
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catholic-rcia
Guest
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catholic-rcia
Guest
2 Corinthians 11:1-15
It is my firm belief that the same one who spoke to Eve in the Garden of Eden is the same one who spoke to Joseph Smith in the grove. When you look at both the Serpent tempting Eve into believing she could become wise like God apart from God (Trinity) the conversation that Joseph puts forth regarding which church to join has the same underlying tones and specifics. It’s rather obvious is it not? All of our sin large or small is out of a hatred of Jesus. This comes from Satan. Yes for some it is hard to decipher. I believe you need to be Christian in order to understand these simple truths.
It is my firm belief that the same one who spoke to Eve in the Garden of Eden is the same one who spoke to Joseph Smith in the grove. When you look at both the Serpent tempting Eve into believing she could become wise like God apart from God (Trinity) the conversation that Joseph puts forth regarding which church to join has the same underlying tones and specifics. It’s rather obvious is it not? All of our sin large or small is out of a hatred of Jesus. This comes from Satan. Yes for some it is hard to decipher. I believe you need to be Christian in order to understand these simple truths.
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shagenbarth
Guest
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zerinus
Guest
Whatever your definition is, it is likely to be the wrong one if it disagrees with ours.
So you must be preaching “another Christ” then, because we are preaching the true one.
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shagenbarth
Guest
You are very clever, (Sir/Madam) in your distraction techniques, but I cannot help but see that you have not answered the questions. You have not interpreted the text that I asked for your clarification on. I can only imagine that you have no answer yourself. Instead, you make remarks that invite no further conversation and offer no real substance for further inquiry. Your hope, I gather, is that those who care to respond will tire, and this thread will die out. Until you do respond with some thoughtfulness, your responses require no further reply or notice.
Peace and understanding to you…
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ParkerD
Guest
Shagenbarth,
You may have missed the above, but what about my offer to have a conversation with you, through answering your question about 2 Corinthians 11:1-15?
Peace and good day to you.
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shagenbarth
Guest
To ParkerD
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I will read through it, and the bible passages as well and return with thoughts…
Until then, peace…
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I will read through it, and the bible passages as well and return with thoughts…
Until then, peace…
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ParkerD
Guest
Shagenbarth,
Thanks, and wishing you peace and good will also.
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