The Mormon View of Jesus Christ

[shagenbarth]

QUOTE=ParkerD;7101090]Shagenbarth,
I have not been following this thread, but noticed that you want an answer about 2 Corinthians 11:1-15.

First, about your LDS member friends, there is no need to “fear for them.” You might try and figure out why it is you think you need to fear for them. I don’t think they “fear for you.” As long as a person is repenting with Christ’s help so they don’t stay in the same trap day after day and week after week and year after year, then they are going to be improving their lives and don’t need to be “feared for.” Those who don’t, can be encouraged through example or through words of loving encouragement, but don’t need to be “feared for” since this life is all about freedom of choice anyway and conveying that they are being “feared for” is a way of seeking to decrease their freedom of choice and make them feel “forced into belief.” Forcing someone into belief is ultimately not going to help them, because then their belief isn’t heartfelt…

I will plan to respond to this message in pieces so that it does not get too long.

The initial purpose of this thread was to discuss the Mormon view of Christ. We have many responses within this thread that indicate that the Christ that the LDS church preaches is not the same Jesus Christ, the one only begotten Son of God, that the rest of the Christian world believes in. One of your past presidents, (or is it prophet?), Gordon B. Hinkley boldly and succintly stated on June 20, 1998 that the LDS do not believe in the traditional Christ. (Gordon B. Hinckley, cited in “Crown of Gospel is Upon Our Heads,” LDS Church News, (Saturday, 20 June 1998): 7. Please read 2 Corinthians 11.

I do indeed fear for my Mormon friends, for all Mormon people, and for all who encounter the Mormon missionaries that are sent all over the world, because the LDS are preaching a gospel that is not one that Jesus himself taught, one that Paul and the other apostles preached, one that was handed down century after century. Jesus said that He is the Way, the Truth and the Light and the only way to Father is through HIM. If the LDS church preaches a different Christ, then it follows that the members of this church cannot be on the pathway to the Father.

As for the arguement that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians Chapter 11 and Galatians 1:6-9 clearly warn about accepting another Christ, and another gospel. “…but even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed…” Gal 1: 8

If Joseph Smith, did indeed encounter an “angel of light” and presented him ultimately with this “other gospel,” how can you ignore the warnings present in the above passages? 2 Corinthians 11:14 states “for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.”

I am not forcing you to believe as I do. I am asking the tough questions and am wondering how they might be answered by someone in your church.

Peace.

 

[Anglican_Gal]

I don’t understand the fascination and obsession with LDS and Mormons.

One reason a person should be concerned about Mormonism (and to a lesser extent, Jehovah’s Witnesses) is that pseudochristian groups are parasitic on the Body of Christ. While Cathoics and Protestants have sent missionaries out to to evangelize those persons who have not heard the Gospel, nor even know the Name of Christ, Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses send their missionaries to your neighbor’s door, to your parents’ door, to your brother’s door, your sister’s door, to your door. Down in Brazil they are making headway, and throughout South and Central America, as their missionairies proselytize mainly Roman Catholics, who unfortunately are not well versed in their faith.

The Mormon missionaries in my area target hispanics in the Wal-Mart parking lot. They send Spanish speaking missionaries to those areas of the country with a high percentage of hispanics. Recently, after the missionaries spent some time with two hispanic men, I called the missionaries over and asked, “did you tell those guys that you believe you can become a god?” They were floored at my question. I said, “I just want to make sure that you told them the truth about Mormonism.”

So, it’s important that Christians, and especially Catholics who are losing significant members to this and other cults, make sure that potential “contacts” are informed about the groups seeking to draw them into a cultic belief system.

 

[stormy99]

**Sounds good until DNA evidence says can’t have happened…no links at all …

stormy/COLOR]**

 

[stormy99]

OK STM, but I thought that the “God was once a man just like you and me” belief was one of those that has now fallen away. And that now achieving “exaltation” (for ordinary folk such as you and me) means ultimately being with God in Heaven. Is that not right? I haven’t collected citations to show where Mormons have claimed that on this forum, but I thought sure that was one of the doctrines that has evolved over time into something else. Do I have it wrong?

]

**Nope and if you live everything just right according the LDS rules etc you can also become a God and populate other worlds…

I have no idea where Jesus comes into this but I know his brother wasn’t Satan as he didn’t have a brother…as in hIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON…

stormy**

 

[stormy99]

This is what I am getting at. Mormons use the same words and terms as traditional Christianity, yet mean entirely different things by these words and terms in some cases. But an unsuspecting inquirer will not know this.

On the other hand, were Mormon missionaries to tell inquirers right away about such beliefs as “Heavenly Mother” and that we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father/God and Heavenly Mother, people would know right away that there is something distinctly different about Mormonism.

And that is why I suspect it is mentioned only rarely if at all to potential inquirers.

**Try never mentioned to potential converts…or they would be leery about inquiring further. I didn’t find out about "spirit children etc until it was too late…along with facts about their view of Jesus…and no internet…you don’t find out til later.

stormy**

 

[Pahoran]

The initial purpose of this thread was to discuss the Mormon view of Christ. We have many responses within this thread that indicate that the Christ that the LDS church preaches is not the same Jesus Christ, the one only begotten Son of God, that the rest of the Christian world believes in. One of your past presidents, (or is it prophet?), Gordon B. Hinkley boldly and succintly stated on June 20, 1998 that the LDS do not believe in the traditional Christ. (Gordon B. Hinckley, cited in “Crown of Gospel is Upon Our Heads,” LDS Church News, (Saturday, 20 June 1998): 7. Please read 2 Corinthians 11.

If you wish to understand another faith – and I mean really understand it – then you need to find out how its adherents understand it.

Please take a moment and review this article.

You appear to have assumed that President Hinckley was saying that we worship someone else. He wasn’t, because we don’t.

Gordon B. Hinckley believed and taught, all his life, that Jesus of Nazareth, who was born in Bethlehem to Mary, was tried under Herod and crucified under Pilate and rose from the dead the third day, was and is the divine Son of God, and the only Saviour of all mankind. He never at any time imagined that we worshipped a numerically distinct being called “Christ;” he did, however, well understand the important qualitative differences between our doctrine of Christ, and the various Christological views espoused by other Christian churches.

Once you understand that fact, then you will not be led into the error you make above.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Pahoran]

One reason a person should be concerned about Mormonism (and to a lesser extent, Jehovah’s Witnesses) is that pseudochristian groups are parasitic on the Body of Christ.

Is it really necessary for you to rely upon such loaded and pejorative language?

It is a demonstrated, objective fact that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, and always has been, a Christian church. This fact is established in Offenders for a Word by Peterson and Ricks. Anyone who wants to find out can read it free, online, simply by clicking the link.

While Cathoics and Protestants have sent missionaries out to to evangelize those persons who have not heard the Gospel, nor even know the Name of Christ, Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses send their missionaries to your neighbor’s door, to your parents’ door, to your brother’s door, your sister’s door, to your door. Down in Brazil they are making headway, and throughout South and Central America, as their missionairies proselytize mainly Roman Catholics, who unfortunately are not well versed in their faith.

The reality, of course, is that our missionaries carry the message of the Restored Gospel to everyone who will listen.

The Mormon missionaries in my area target hispanics in the Wal-Mart parking lot.

Actually they don’t “target” anyone at all; they preach the Gospel to all who want to hear.

They send Spanish speaking missionaries to those areas of the country with a high percentage of hispanics.

And do you find that sinister? Do you think it would be better to send Tongan-speaking missionaries into Hispanic neighbourhoods, so that the Spanish-speaking missionaries could be spared for work among the Chinese community?

Recently, after the missionaries spent some time with two hispanic men, I called the missionaries over and asked, “did you tell those guys that you believe you can become a god?” They were floored at my question. I said, “I just want to make sure that you told them the truth about Mormonism.”

Of course they told them “the truth about Mormonism;” that’s what the missionaries do, you see. Of course they also did not get into an in-depth doctrinal discussion in a supermarket parking lot. Why should they?

So, it’s important that Christians, and especially Catholics who are losing significant members to this and other cults, make sure that potential “contacts” are informed about the groups seeking to draw them into a cultic belief system.

You realise, don’t you, that in this context “cult” and its cognates are mere pejoratives, designed to poison the well against those you target?

Because, you see, I do.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[shagenbarth]

One reason a person should be concerned about Mormonism (and to a lesser extent, Jehovah’s Witnesses) is that pseudochristian groups are parasitic on the Body of Christ. While Cathoics and Protestants have sent missionaries out to to evangelize those persons who have not heard the Gospel, nor even know the Name of Christ, Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses send their missionaries to your neighbor’s door, to your parents’ door, to your brother’s door, your sister’s door, to your door. Down in Brazil they are making headway, and throughout South and Central America, as their missionairies proselytize mainly Roman Catholics, who unfortunately are not well versed in their faith.

The Mormon missionaries in my area target hispanics in the Wal-Mart parking lot. They send Spanish speaking missionaries to those areas of the country with a high percentage of hispanics. Recently, after the missionaries spent some time with two hispanic men, I called the missionaries over and asked, “did you tell those guys that you believe you can become a god?” They were floored at my question. I said, “I just want to make sure that you told them the truth about Mormonism.”

So, it’s important that Christians, and especially Catholics who are losing significant members to this and other cults, make sure that potential “contacts” are informed about the groups seeking to draw them into a cultic belief system.

EXACTLY! We all have something to be concerned about. Thank you for your response.

 

[dianaiad]

EXACTLY! We all have something to be concerned about. Thank you for your response.

Indeed, we all do have something to be concerned about.

I am currently studying libel law (well, sort of…I’m taking a class in communications law) and there is one thing I have learned about libel law in the USA. It is that almost always, truth is an absolute defense.

That is, it doesn’t matter what the lie is, the truth defeats it. It utterly astounds me that mere lawyers seem to have figured out what millions of theists don’t seem to grasp; that you don’t have to prove that the other guy lied. You just have to prove that you are telling the truth.

In theistic terms, this means that you don’t have to go individually attack each and every belief system that you disagree with. In fact, nobody has time for that. All anybody needs to do is study and present his OWN faith to the best of his ability. Present what you believe to be the truth about YOUR faith—and trust in God to let those who listen to you, and to the ‘others’ you hate so much, understand the difference.

For one thing, there are far more of “them” than there are of you; which lie is more important than another? a falsehood is a falsehood, and the truth fixes all of them. For another, I’ve never met anybody who devotes his or her time to combating someone else’s beliefs that didn’t end up tilting at straw windmills. Inevitably they battle beliefs that nobody actually holds–and I can’t imagine a dumber way to waste time.

 

[tskrobacz]

As Catholics we hold that Jesus and Christ are 2 separate expressions of faith. Christ is the word that per John 1:2 “was in the beginning with God”. Christ was incarnate or enfleshed in Jesus. The same Christ that is enfleshed in all creation, revealed singularly and for all in the life of Jesus.

The title of this thread might better be stated “The Mormon View of Jesus the Christ”.

 

[Anglican_Gal]

You know, I saw some video on Youtube where some Mormon Apostle guy said something like, “Jesus had a body, like his father.” What the heck is that supposed to mean?

Mormons believe there are three different gods in the Trinity, not Three Persons, as Christians teach. Two of these gods have physical bodies, including the Father, the one they call “heavenly father,” because Mormons believe that “heavenly father” sexually procreated the spirits of all men in premortal life along with his “wives.” Heavenly father, don’t forget, is a mortal man from another planet (as some Mormon leaders have speculated), and was somehow “exalted” to an immortal, powerful god who rules over this world.

Heavenly father’s first spirit “son” was Jesus; another was Lucifer, making Jesus and Lucifer spirit brothers. Huckabee, by the way, was right when he made this statement about Mormon belief, thus creating a problem for Romney who had to basically deny this Mormon teaching. Romney smoothed over it without denying it, if you’ll recall. Jesus’ earthly, fleshly body was produced when “heavenly father,” also known by Mormons as Elohim visited Mary on earth and procreated with her the physcial body of Jesus. Remember, Mormons do not believe Mary conceived as a Virgin - only that she was a Virgin until she “conceived” Jesus through the instrumentality of her “heavenly father,” Elohim. If you doubt this, check this out (and remember, they believe that Mary was also a spirit daughter of Elohim in pre-existence, which means that Jesus’ conception was actually incestuous):

exmormon.org/mormon/mormon385.htm

The Holy Ghost (Mormons used to teach that the Holy Spirit was some kind of spiritual, non-personal substance, as do the JWs - although they no longer hold to this view) is a personage of “spirit,” but is not omnipresent, and somehow achieved godhood (as did Mormon Jesus) in pre-existence.

In summary, Jesus has a physical body which he obtained in “mortal” existence, but after becoming (somehow) a god; The father, another god, has a physical body which he gained on another earth like ours while going through mortality; The Holy Ghost has a “tabernacle” of spirit. These three gods equal the Mormon “godhead.”

Here is a statement from one early Mormon authority (a member of the First Presidency):

**Well, who was His [Jesus’] father? Why God was His father; and who was God’s father? Why God had a father like you and I have. …

Heavenly Father once a mortal man. Every child knows that its earthly father had a father, and its grandfather had a father, and so on back as far as they can be traced; it can believe also that if it lives to become a man or a woman, it will also have children.

The Prophet Joseph teaches us that our Heavenly Father was once a man and dwelt on an earth like we do upon this one and that He has gone on from step to step, from one degree of glory and exaltation to another, until He now rules and governs. (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon, selected, arranged, and edited by Jerreld L. Newquist [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1987], 101.)**

More info on this link: irr.org/mit/finessing-god-once-a-man.html

I know this stuff is bizarre, and just as far away from Christianity as any pagan belief system. Just because Mormons use Christian terminology doesn’t make them Christian, not when they redefine those Christian words to fit their neo-paganism. Just because a person stands in a garage doesn’t mean he’s a car.

 

[Anglican_Gal]

Indeed, we all do have something to be concerned about.

I am currently studying libel law (well, sort of…I’m taking a class in communications law) and there is one thing I have learned about libel law in the USA. It is that almost always, truth is an absolute defense.

That is, it doesn’t matter what the lie is, the truth defeats it. It utterly astounds me that mere lawyers seem to have figured out what millions of theists don’t seem to grasp; that you don’t have to prove that the other guy lied. You just have to prove that you are telling the truth.

In theistic terms, this means that you don’t have to go individually attack each and every belief system that you disagree with. In fact, nobody has time for that. All anybody needs to do is study and present his OWN faith to the best of his ability. Present what you believe to be the truth about YOUR faith—and trust in God to let those who listen to you, and to the ‘others’ you hate so much, understand the difference.

For one thing, there are far more of “them” than there are of you; which lie is more important than another? a falsehood is a falsehood, and the truth fixes all of them. For another, I’ve never met anybody who devotes his or her time to combating someone else’s beliefs that didn’t end up tilting at straw windmills. Inevitably they battle beliefs that nobody actually holds–and I can’t imagine a dumber way to waste time.

**Every statement I ever make has an authoritative statement from Mormon leaders or their writings to back it up. So, don’t sorry about libel. Be concerned with the statements made by Mormon leaders. Address those issues, not the obfuscatory tactic of accusing posters of some evil motivation.

I worked for a lawyer many years, and have studied the law, I assure you.**

 

[Todd520]

Anglican Gal,
Why did you bother to quote Diana if you weren’t going to respond to what she said?
Also, please use official mormon links if you are going to show what we believe. I’ll help you as an example:

LDS Godhead
"we know that the members of the Godhead are three separate beings. The Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bones, and the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit (see D&C 130:22). "
Although the members of the Godhead are distinct beings with distinct roles, they are one in purpose and doctrine. They are perfectly united in bringing to pass Heavenly Father’s divine plan of salvation.

If you quote using official sources then the ‘truth’ is evident (assuming you did not abuse context)

Every statement I ever make has an authoritative statement from Mormon leaders or their writings to back it up. So, don’t bother with your veiled threats. I worked for a lawyer many years, and have studied the law a lot more than you, I assure you.

 

[Anglican_Gal]

As Catholics we hold that Jesus and Christ are 2 separate expressions of faith. Christ is the word that per John 1:2 “was in the beginning with God”. Christ was incarnate or enfleshed in Jesus. The same Christ that is enfleshed in all creation, revealed singularly and for all in the life of Jesus.

The title of this thread might better be stated “The Mormon View of Jesus the Christ”.

What do you mean, “enfleshed in all creation?” Sorry, but that sounds like some kind of pantheism. He is, as God, omnipresent, but transcends His creation. As far as I know, that is true Catholic teaching.

 

[Caprica]

**Every statement I ever make has an authoritative statement from Mormon leaders or their writings to back it up. So, don’t sorry about libel. Be concerned with the statements made by Mormon leaders. Address those issues, not the obfuscatory tactic of accusing posters of some evil motivation.

I worked for a lawyer many years, and have studied the law, I assure you.**

Sorry,we always address what our leaders have said, in the appropriate context. That context isn’t found at “authoritative” sites like exmormon.org. It’s always amusing to see posters use such websites to critique Mormonism when they also hate when non-Catholics use websites like CARM or JustforCatholics.org (and other websites that quote Catholic leaders and texts) to “prove” what Catholics really believe. The same goes for the Anglican equivalents.

 

[Anglican_Gal]

Anglican Gal,
Why did you bother to quote Diana if you weren’t going to respond to what she said?
Also, please use official mormon links if you are going to show what we believe. I’ll help you as an example:

If you quote using official sources then the ‘truth’ is evident (assuming you did not abuse context)

Do you seriously think that “official” Mormon links have quotes from early Mormons? They’d rather forget Brigham Young ever lived, and they just go bananas when you bring up the King Follett Discourse by Joe Smith:mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm One Mormon missionary denied that there was such a “discourse.” I quickly educated him.

**Mormonism is very slippery. On the one hand they’ll tell you that if the doctrine is not found in the “standard works,” it isn’t official. On the other hand, they say that all their prophets have been inspired, along with their apostles. God speaks through them. It is entirely legitimate to quote Young and others who have spoken “officially” in Mormonism. Of course, today’s Mormonism would rather forget what has been done in the past, in order to appear more “Christian,” and lure the uninformed into their sect.

Tell me, are your Mormon temple rites found in the “standard works?” Of course not - but you, as a Mormon (you are, right?), believe those rites are necessary for your exaltation to godhood, true? **

 

[Anglican_Gal]

Sorry,we always address what our leaders have said, in the appropriate context. That context isn’t found at “authoritative” sites like exmormon.org. It’s always amusing to see posters use such websites to critique Mormonism when they also hate when non-Catholics use websites like CARM or JustforCatholics.org (and other websites that quote Catholic leaders and texts) to “prove” what Catholics really believe. The same goes for the Anglican equivalents.

You’ll find those statements by Young and other’s supposedly “inspired” by God on many sites, and you know it. Mormons will always throw their former leaders under the bus in their quest to cover up the past. But, when a person become a Mormon, then they are confronted with the esoteric, secret doctrines of Mormonism - which is why so many leave within one year of joining the group.

Nobody knows Mormonism like an ex-Mormon, I assure you. They’ve made it their business to research it.

 

[Caprica]

Do you seriously think that “official” Mormon links have quotes from early Mormons? They’d rather forget Brigham Young ever lived, and they just go bananas when you bring up the King Follett Discourse by Joe Smith:mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm

Really? I just did a search for “Follett” at LDS.org, and it turned up 39 hits. And you just linked to a BYU website that has it. Popular LDS apologist and author Blake Ostler refers to it extensively in his work “Exploring Mormon Thought: Of God and Gods”. Sorry, your statement is false.

LDS.org has plenty of quotes from early Latter-day Saints, as well as in our Church manuals.

 

[Caprica]

You’ll find those statements by Young and other’s supposedly “inspired” by God in many sites, and you know it. Mormons will always throw their former leaders under the bus in their quest to cover up the past. But, when a person become a Momron, then they are confronted with the esoteric, secret doctrines of Mormonism - which is why so many leave within one year of joining the group.

Sorry, this is false. Latter-day Saints know that our leaders are not always infallible, nor are they inerrant or impeccable. They are humans like the rest of us (and just like the Biblical prophets). What we do know is that critics such as yourself attempt to hold LDS prophets to an unbiblical standard, since not everything a prophets says is believed to be an inspired statement. Critics want LDS prophets to be seen as supposedly inspired in everything they say or do, and that they are not supposed to have their own opinions and speculations on various issues, which is not a Biblical standard for prophets in the first place, nor is it consistent with historical analyses of how prophets were seen in ancient Israelite culture.

 

[Caprica]

Nobody knows Mormonism like an ex-Mormon, I assure you. They’ve made it their business to research it.

Yes, just like ex-Catholics that make it their business to research Catholicism. They know it better than actual Catholics…Do you agree?