The Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are Brainwashed

[zerinus]

The Assyrian Church of the East is in full communion with Jehovah’s Witnesses and LDS (Mormons). Its supreme leader, His Holiness Mar Dinkha IV is a proven Nestorian as he denies the deity of Jesus, by confessing boldly Jesus is NOT God The Word but a (mere) man. According to Assyrian Cathecism published by Mar Thoma Press (India), Jesus died apart from God The Word, the Second Qnuma of the Holy Trinity.

Have you heard that recently both Assyrians and Jehovah’s Witnesses have established full communion as both faith traditions agreed Jesus is NOT God The Word but a creation?

The Watch Tower Society has even agreed to accept the dogma of Peshitta Primacy and agreed to accept the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed in the Syriac language, which is also the language of Jesus.

This is historic move!

I don’t know what relationship the JWs have with the Assyrian Church of the East (I hadn’t heard of the latter until now); but I like to know how you got the LDS (Mormon) mixed up with that lot. We have nothing to do wih either the JWs or the Assyrians; although we respect their right to believe as they do.

 

[Catholic20064]

Debate all you want but I truly believe it. I believe it more today than yesterday. Agree or disagree. That is what this topic is for, Have fun-

I think they would say the same thing about Catholics.

 

[David_Steel]

But it gives me the chance to say that I have known more than a few Mormons personally, and to each one they are friendly, generous, dedicated and admirable, even if they hold different beliefs.

I must agree with most of that. I have known very few Mormons, but the ones that I have known are trustworthy, patient, moral, clean living people. I have a tremendous amount of admiration for them.

Having said that, I do have a sort of natural curiosity about some of their alleged beliefs. For example, each man will become a god and have his own planet? Do they really believe this, or is it a rumor created by some evangelical zealot?

 

[zerinus]

I must agree with most of that. I have known very few Mormons, but the ones that I have known are trustworthy, patient, moral, clean living people. I have a tremendous amount of admiration for them.

Thank you for your kind words aout the Mormons.

Having said that, I do have a sort of natural curiosity about some of their alleged beliefs. For example, each man will become a god and have his own planet? Do they really believe this, or is it a rumor created by some evangelical zealot?

That is a mixture of truh an falsehood. I don’t know how deeply you are into Christian theology; if you are, you will know that the doctrine of “deificaion” (becoming gods) is an ancient and well documented Christian doctrine. It is by no means a novel invention of Mormonism. But becoming “gods of your own planet” is not true Mormon doctrine.

 

[David_Steel]

Thank you for your kind words aout the Mormons.

I don’t know how deeply you are into Christian theology;

I must admit that I am not very well read on the subject. That is one of the reasons that I am here. I want to learn more about my own religion, and at the same time, hopefully pick up some more info about other religions of the world.

 

[SkinnyJay]

That is a mixture of truh an falsehood. I don’t know how deeply you are into Christian theology; if you are, you will know that the doctrine of “deificaion” (becoming gods) is an ancient and well documented Christian doctrine. It is by no means a novel invention of Mormonism. But becoming “gods of your own planet” is not true Mormon doctrine.

This “deification” has always troubled me. Mostly because of it’s ambiguous nature. I can accept deification if it means becoming “like” God, sharing in His redemption(atonement) to become smart/strong enough to stop all this sinning against Him but that about it. We are already “made in His image”. We can dirty it up and He can clean us up but we are what we are for a reason. Why create people with the goal of giving them your power to send them here without it? To have them prove something to you? You are God you can see what they will do even before you created them!

I am not sure I am believing your statement of “gods of your own planet is not true Mormon doctrine” because in my talks with missionaries and other Mormons this was exactly what they said. If you do everything right in the eyes of God you will be granted the power to create and beget so you go and make spirit children with your wife(s) to populate a new world of your own. (Just an aside that bugged me as well, do you expect your children to worship you like you worship God? to pray to you?)

This was my understanding of literally what I was told by Mormons. A friend would go on about how she can’t wait to be able to make flowers, beautiful flowers. Innocent enough but still if you can create flowers why not a whole planet? Something I think is singularly reserved for God, whether creating a flower or a planet. Was not the sin of Adam and Eve that they wanted to become God or gods?

Also what stops people from creating things in this world once they are deified? If I died and was granted this power why not create something nice for the people I care about.

Maybe my information is faulty or perhaps my understanding of the information I was provided. Either way could you correct me if I am wrong?

 

[traillius]

. Joseph gained nothing in this life, but left behind a legacy and a united church 200 years later with 13.5 million members world-wide.

Jesus gained nothing in this life, but he left behind a legacy and a united church 2000 years later with 1 billion members world-wide.
Oh and one more thing, Jesus hung on a tree to achieve our salvation, Joseph smith never did anything close to this.

 

[StrawberryJam]

The OP believes that Mormons and Jehovah’s are brainwashed, and believes it to be a fact.

Where is the evidence for this “fact?” To be a fact, it requires evidence, not opinion.

 

[traillius]

I adon’t know much about mormons, but JW"s are definitely not christian. From the JW own website.

" Christ was first of God’s creations" Explain it any way you wish, using any reference you wish, but Christ is one with God, and eternally has been. "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. The word became flesh and dwelt among us " Jesus is the word. " Jesus cannot be both God and created by God. Since I don’t believe in Apostacy, which would make Jesus and God both Liars, I find an irreconcilable contradiction, therefore I can conclude that JW’s don’t believe that Jesus is the Christ and that he came in the Flesh, therefore they are not of God, and not christians.
None of this means that I hate JW’s I will pray for their conversion and salvation.

 

[zerinus]

This “deification” has always troubled me. Mostly because of it’s ambiguous nature. I can accept deification if it means becoming “like” God, sharing in His redemption (atonement) to become smart/strong enough to stop all this sinning against Him but that about it.

Deification in early Christianity meant more than that.

We are already “made in His image”. We can dirty it up and He can clean us up but we are what we are for a reason. Why create people with the goal of giving them your power to send them here without it? To have them prove something to you?

We are here to follow in the footsteps of the Savior. He was made “a little lower than the angels” in order to rise above them; and so are we:

Hebrews 2:

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

You are God you can see what they will do even before you created them!

I didn’t follow that one.

I am not sure I am believing your statement of “gods of your own planet is not true Mormon doctrine” because in my talks with missionaries and other Mormons this was exactly what they said.

That is not a good start, not believing what I say!

If you do everything right in the eyes of God you will be granted the power to create and beget so you go and make spirit children with your wife(s) to populate a new world of your own. (Just an aside that bugged me as well, do you expect your children to worship you like you worship God? to pray to you?)

No, that is not LDS doctrine. We are told that those who achieve exaltation will continue to have posterity; but how that is accomplished is not revealed.

This was my understanding of literally what I was told by Mormons. A friend would go on about how she can’t wait to be able to make flowers, beautiful flowers. Innocent enough but still if you can create flowers why not a whole planet? Something I think is singularly reserved for God, whether creating a flower or a planet. Was not the sin of Adam and Eve that they wanted to become God or gods?

The details of what man can and cannot do in that state has not been revealed; but as far as creativity is concerned, man is a creative being. God has made Him in His own image. That means His moral image as well as physical image. That means that as God is a creative being, so is man. And I don’t think that that attribute of man will end when he dies. Here he can create anything from a wheel to a space module. I don’t know what in heaven he will or will not be able to create. But I believe that he will continue to be a creative being.

Also what stops people from creating things in this world once they are deified? If I died and was granted this power why not create something nice for the people I care about.

I didn’t follow that exactly. As I said, man is a creative being, and will continue to be a creative being when he dies and after he is resurrected. What he can and cannot create in that state I do not know.

Maybe my information is faulty or perhaps my understanding of the information I was provided. Either way could you correct me if I am wrong?

A mixture of fact and fiction I would say.

 

[SkinnyJay]

No, that is not LDS doctrine. We are told that those who achieve exaltation will continue to have posterity; but how that is accomplished is not revealed.

So you believe you will have descendants but do not know how you will get them?

A mixture of fact and fiction I would say.

Thanks for your reply but just to clarify, Mormons in no way believe that when their body is completely glorified they will be able to reign over their own planet and populate said planet with their own children?

 

[SkinnyJay]

The details of what man can and cannot do in that state has not been revealed; but as far as creativity is concerned, man is a creative being. God has made Him in His own image. That means His moral image as well as physical image. That means that as God is a creative being, so is man. And I don’t think that that attribute of man will end when he dies. Here he can create anything from a wheel to a space module. I don’t know what in heaven he will or will not be able to create. But I believe that he will continue to be a creative being.

I agree except for the physical image

I don’t know what I will be able to do in heaven beyond laying flat on my face in gratefulness at His mercy. But the idea of, that I believed to be the Mormon stance, of creating a world similar to this one for a place for my children is a power reserved for God. I consider myself unworthy to have that much responsibility of so many lives. There is no one on this earth who I would entrust that much responsibility besides God.

 

[zerinus]

So you believe you will have descendants but do not know how you will get them?

That is right. The exact wording of the scripture is that for a person who does not enter the highest degree of the celestial glory, “that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase” (D&C 131:4). The exact meaning of the word “increase” is not made clear in that verse; but it is a reasonable assumption that it means an endless posterity. Such a promise was made to Abraham regarding his seed, that “out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; . . .” (D&C 132:30). Beyond that it has not be revealed how that “increase” is obtained.

Thanks for your reply but just to clarify, Mormons in no way believe that when their body is completely glorified they will be able to reign over their own planet and populate said planet with their own children?

“Mormons” may believe all kinds of things. That doctrine has been taught by some Church leaders in the past. But that does not make it official Church doctrine.

I agree except for the physical image

I don’t know what I will be able to do in heaven beyond laying flat on my face in gratefulness at His mercy.

Well, if you think that the greatest thing that you can do in heaven is to lie down flat on your stomach for the rest of eternity, that is probably what you will get. We think that man was created for a nobler purpose than that. Peter says that they will be “partakers of the divine nature,” and Paul says that they will become “heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ”. That suggests to me something more than lying flat on your stomach for the rest of eternity.

But the idea of, that I believed to be the Mormon stance, of creating a world similar to this one for a place for my children is a power reserved for God. I consider myself unworthy to have that much responsibility of so many lives. There is no one on this earth who I would entrust that much responsibility besides God.

What you consider yourself to be worthy of in the hereafter is irrelevant to me or to Christian doctrine. Christian theology is not derived on the basis of how you feel about that. I thought I just explained to your that we don’t know what man is or is not capable of creating in the next life; but I believe he will continue to be a creative being in heaven as he is here on earth.

 

[chris2009]

Generally it’s the parents responsibility to teach these things at home not some teachers job during Mass. As I understand it the18 months are called Nursery and 3 year olds are called Sunbeams and both have a teaching manual.
QUOTE]
As an LDS member, I’ve served in the bishopric before and I’ve also served in the nursery before. As you mentioned, nursery is for ages 18 months to 3 years old. With 20 little kids running around, you could argue that the kids are brainwashing the adults! It can take a ton of patience and drive you crazy.

I can tell you exactly what is being taught (and the church is the same world-wide). You start with play time, then you have snack time, then you have more play time, then you have a 5 min lesson on brainwashing subjects like “I’m Thankful for Fish” or “I Love My Family”. Good luck getting their attention though-- A good rule of thumb I’ve learned is the child’s age equals their attention span in minutes. Then they sing a song, then it’s back to play time!

Anyone can check out the Sunbeam Teaching Manual online here:

lds.org/library/display/0,4945,8184-1-4470-1,00.html

 

[dianaiad]

Jesus gained nothing in this life, but he left behind a legacy and a united church 2000 years later with 1 billion members world-wide.
Oh and one more thing, Jesus hung on a tree to achieve our salvation, Joseph smith never did anything close to this.

Why are you comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ? WE don’t. We compare him to men like Peter and Paul, to Moses or Abraham; he was a prophet, not the Messiah.

And he most certainly met an end similar to those of the early NT apostles.

 

[dianaiad]

I adon’t know much about mormons, but JW"s are definitely not christian. From the JW own website.

" Christ was first of God’s creations" Explain it any way you wish, using any reference you wish, but Christ is one with God, and eternally has been. "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. The word became flesh and dwelt among us " Jesus is the word. " Jesus cannot be both God and created by God. Since I don’t believe in Apostacy, which would make Jesus and God both Liars, I find an irreconcilable contradiction, therefore I can conclude that JW’s don’t believe that Jesus is the Christ and that he came in the Flesh, therefore they are not of God, and not christians.
None of this means that I hate JW’s I will pray for their conversion and salvation.

According to their website, they believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah…and they call themselves Christians.

That means…they are Christians. They may not be right about their beliefs, but they are Christians according to the standards of the dictionary…

And no, you don’t get to decide for yourself who is, and who is not, Christian because you do, or do not, approve of their beliefs. That way lies trouble.

 

[chris2009]

Forgive me haven’t read all the posts…

Then you haven’t beent to the monthly fast and testimony meetings. After the sacrament is passed it’s open mike night for bearing one’s testimony.
“I know the church is true, I know Joseph Smith is a prophet, I know the Book of Mormon is Scripture [insert personal anecdote here] InthenameofJesusChristAmen.”
Rinse and Repeat for the rest of the meeting.
People are constantly called on for their testimony - either in sunday school classes, relief society/priesthood, missionary visits, etc. the pressure to repeat the party line is strong.

Are you suggesting bearing one’s testimony is bad? A testimony is stating what you know to be true. The apostles and prophets of old constantly bore testimony to the truths of the gospel. It is the bearing of testimony that sparks the faith of others to believe. The New Testament and Old Testament are “testimonies” of the truth. The Holy Ghost will bear witness to the truth.

Peter received a testimony that Jesus is the Christ by the Holy Ghost.

Matt 16:13-17
“13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

 

[SkinnyJay]

That is right. The exact wording of the scripture is that for a person who does not enter the highest degree of the celestial glory, “that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase” (D&C 131:4). The exact meaning of the word “increase” is not made clear in that verse; but it is a reasonable assumption that it means an endless posterity. Such a promise was made to Abraham regarding his seed, that “out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; . . .” (D&C 132:30). Beyond that it has not be revealed how that “increase” is obtained.

Ok I understand.

“Mormons” may believe all kinds of things. That doctrine has been taught by some Church leaders in the past. But that does not make it official Church doctrine.

Alright then so what is taught by church leaders is not the same as Church doctrine, check. Interesting but if you say so.

]Well, if you think that the greatest thing that you can do in heaven is to lie down flat on your stomach for the rest of eternity, that is probably what you will get. We think that man was created for a nobler purpose than that. Peter says that they will be “partakers of the divine nature,” and Paul says that they will become “heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ”. That suggests to me something more than lying flat on your stomach for the rest of eternity.

You and I both know I said I don’t know what I would do beyond that not only that.

What is the purpose of divine nature? We will share in that purpose.

What you consider yourself to be worthy of in the hereafter is irrelevant to me or to Christian doctrine. Christian theology is not derived on the basis of how you feel about that. I thought I just explained to your that we don’t know what man is or is not capable of creating in the next life; but I believe he will continue to be a creative being in heaven as he is here on earth.

I do not disagree with any particular statement. However what could be the reason of missionaries and regular Mormons teaching me and being taught themselves specific cases of what we can create when in fact Mormons don’t know.

 

[chris2009]

Yes, I can find infant baptism in the bible. If you read Eusebius, you would know there was never a ‘Great Apostasy.’ To think otherwise, you would have to cherry pick just the right quotes.
I’ve never seen anyone of any age ‘sprinkled’ during Baptism unless it was just during the mythical vortex of history call the dark ages.

I was wondering if you’d provide the reference in the Bible to infant baptism. I’ve never found one in my King James Version.

Regarding the apostasy, there are many scriptures, however, what do you think of this one below:

2 Thes. 2:1-4
“1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

Some in the church thought the second coming was near. Paul then assures them that two things must FIRST happen before Christ comes again:

1. A falling away first (the original Greek word used is “apostasia” or apostasy), and
2. The man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

The Bible also teaches of the need for a restoration of all things.
Acts 3:19-21
“19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

Why would there be a need to restore ALL things if nothing had been lost?

 

[chris2009]

We are not anti-mormons. We just have a lot of questions that never get answered.

I’m sorry if I came off too strong or bold. I don’t believe you are anti-mormon, but I have talked to many who are that seem to not really want their questioned answered, but keep changing the subject to cause confusion.

No, the word “Trinity” is not there, but Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all called God and Lord in the Bible. That’s why it says to baptize in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. It does not say NAMES.

Yes, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are no doubt throughout the Bible. The trinity has a slightly different meaning though that was developed with the Nicene Creed and then later with the Athanasian Creed.

Where in the Bible or in the Book of Mormon does it say that God is THREE different beings that are one in purpose?

Actually I believe the Bible does a better job then the Book of Mormon in explaining this doctrine. There are many places in the Bible that teach this. However, I believe one of the plainest is in John 17 - Jesus’ intercessory prayer. It is so plain, I don’t know how any person can interpret it differently.

As you know in the Bible Jesus constantly refers to He and the Father being “one”. What does this mean? Jesus explains this in John 17:11.

“And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.”

Now Jesus was praying to Father for His apostles. Surely Jesus wasn’t asking that the apostles be of one “substance” physically. What was Jesus saying here then? Jesus wanted the apostles to be unified in purpose just as Father and Jesus are in complete unity and harmony.

The entire arguement in 325 AD with Emporer Constantine and all the bishops surrounded this issue: Was the essense of the Father & Son of the “same” substance or of a “similar” substance? (In other words, one or two beings?) The arguement was between Homoousians (those for “same” substance) and Homoiousians (those for “similar” substance). The little letter “i” changed the entire meaning. Some say the arguement was over one small “iota”. Constantine could not afford division within Rome at this time and quickly brought the debate to a close. The Nicene Creed was created indicating Father & Son were of the “same” substance.