The Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are Brainwashed

[Rightlydivide]

I do not think so.
Thats what the world thinks about us too.
It is what the world would probably say about Catholics for the most part.
But no, I do not think so. I dont agree with them at all but I dont agree with your choice of semantics…and thats what I really think as well!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

In the end it boils down to who do you believe? Do you believe that God the Father had human flesh and a mother goddess and that Jesus preached to native americans? Do you believe that an entire race was cursed with dark skin? Do you believe that the Bible and the Church that Jesus Christ set up on the rock of Peter was false and languished for 1800 years until Joseph Smith found some plates and “translated” them in secrecy?

Do you believe that the trinity is boloney and that celebrating one’s birthday is evil? Or how about the 30,000 saved and the other things JWs teach?

Both of these religions are predicated on one man’s interpretation of salvation at least 1800 years after the fact. They are also based on the notion of apostasy and that the Church was corrupted, evil, and false for 1800 years…hardly compelling.

And the way the Mormons and JW’s have espoused that the Bible was either mis-translated or parts of it should be removed/re-vamped are extremely revealing of a cult mentality.

Catholicism is 2000 years old as is Orthodoxy. Even Anglicans and Lutherans and other protestants hold fast to the Bible as whole, true, and unwavering as the Word of God.

I’ve read the Book of Mormon twice and found it to be absolutely a work of fiction and hardly consistent with the truths we see in Holy Scripture. And looking at the history of Joseph Smith and his run-ins with the law for gazing at peep stones and his so-called “translation” of the “Book of Abraham,” oh man, that’s a keeper!

Smith obtained an Egyptian sarcofagus and a a mummy with a scroll in hieroglyphics. As usual, he claimed to translate it and said it was the “Book of Abraham.” It has a lengthy narrative about Abraham’s lost teachings and wanderings, etc. In the 1970’s or 80’s that scroll was examined and proved to be a scroll showing how to embalm mummies! Just google the Book of Abraham and Joseph Smith together.

How can people trust Smith or Charles Russell? They have such shady pasts?

Add to that the myriad of proven inconsistencies with the Book of Mormon and North American resources, geography, and native peoples, it’s proven itself to be false…There were no horses in North America until the Spanish but somehow they were there in ancient times, etc…The BOM is full of anachronisms showing it is false.

This link is quite thorough and helpful to show such anachronisms and inconsistencies

mormonmesoamerica.com/

 

[zaffiroborant]

First, having just checked the dictionary and found the word “cult” to mean either “a system of religious beliefs and ritual”, “a religion regarded as unorthodox” or “great devotion among a group to a particular person, idea or thing”, I, personally would not find the use of the word “cult” offensive because I know its correct definition. The sad thing is that most people using the word “cult” have no idea of the word’s correct definition. One definition of a cult is “a great devotion among a group to a particular person, idea or thing,” and LDs are truly devoted to our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Second, I’ve never agreed with Protestant Doctrine, at least not how Protestants put it across, and in my mind it’s always been either Catholic or a Restorationist Church. Before I even met the Missionaries or knew anything of the Church, I’d already come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is not correct. But it’s interesting how much the Catholic Church resembles ours, most of the Doctrine is very similar, though it’s like the Catholic Doctrine is a half formed version of ours, just like I’d expect if the LDS Church was true (well I say if, but you know what I mean). There are things I disgree with in the Catholic Church, but I think they are a good 80 - 90% there.

Last, (Orson F. Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, Part 3, (Salt Lake City:
Deseret News Press, 1921), 63-64.)A Catholic Opinion.–Many years ago there came to Salt Lake City a learned a doctor of divinity, a member of the Roman Catholic Church. I became well acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar,
with perhaps a dozen, languages at his tongue’s end, he seemed to know all
about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy, and was never weary of displaying his vast erudition. One day he said to me: “You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is betweenCatholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right,we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestants haven’t a leg
to stand on. If we are wrong, they are wrong with us, for they were a part
of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom
we cut off long ago. If we really have, as we claim, the apostolic
succession from St. Peter, there was no need for Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the Gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the Gospel in latter days.” The Catholic theologian’s name is John A. Reiner. The source is Orson F. Whitney’s autobiography, Through Memory’s Halls: The Life Story of Orson F. Whitney, as Told by Himself (Independence, MO: Zion’s Printing and Publishing Company, 1930), 222-23. [If you want to buy a copy of the book, be forewarned that it is long out of print; the cheapest one I saw on the internet was $325.]"The statement is also included in LeGrand Richard’s book “A Marvelous Work and A Wonder” on page 3 entitled “A Catholic Utterance” and is also included in a pamphlet entitled “The Strength of the Mormon Position”.

I’ve never come across any supporting documentation on your “great scholar” and “Catholic theologian” story. As far as I can see it is nothing more that a faith promoting tale, it reads alot like most Ensign stories or those handed out by the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

As to brainwashing I really can’t say but I do think it’s strange to have church issued teaching manuals for children 18 months through 2 years. If it is brainwashing it starts way earlier than any other church I’ve ever heard of. In most other churches I’ve seen it’s take the babies with you to church or put them in babysitting.

 

[MaryElizabeth22]

I don’t think Mormons are brainwashed, I think they have been deceived. Joseph Smith was a Freemason, who used his Freemason teachings to create a new “religion.”

There is absolutely no proof of a “Great Apostasy.” If it did happen, when and where did it begin? Who started it? Who defended against it? Where is it in the history books? Why would Jesus start the Catholic Church with St. Peter as the first Pope and say the “gates of hell shall not prevail against it,” and then the Mormons teach that the gates of hell prevailed against the Catholic Church.

Matt. 16: 18-19 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

If there was a “Great Apostasy” then why do Mormons read the Bible. The Bible came from the Catholic Church in 400 AD. Wouldn’t the Bible be an “apostate” book?

There is but only one God, three persons in one, that Mormons don’t believe in. The Bible continually calls Jesus “God” and “Lord.” (Didn’t Thomas say to Jesus “my Lord and my God”?) Also, the Bible does not say that active male members of God’s church will occupy their own planet one day, and become a “god” of that planet after they pass away. It is Satan that tried to get Adam and Eve to believe they can be like God if they eat of the fruit. Satan, himself, tried to become like God and look what happened to him.

I think Mormons are good people that have been gravely deceived. They have been taught to overlook the cross, which is our salvation, and to believe that they too can be God some day.

 

[pete_29]

So are christians! Have fun

So are atheists, it’s just that they brainwash themselves and won’t admit it. Having fun

 

[zerinus]

Greetings everyone!

I’ve posted the scripture I quote below from the Doctrine and Covenants before and honestly it is one of my favorite scriptures of all time. It declares the pattern of heaven and the pattern that we, as individuals, should embrace with our dealings with each other. I’m particularly reminded of the principles of this scripture when dealing with my children. God doesn’t operate via coercion or unrighteous dominion in compelling or forcing His will upon His children. He allows us to choose, for better or for worse, to make the choices in life we make.

Brainwashing is antithetical to how God operates and to the doctrines and principles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It isn’t part of the program and it shouldn’t be a part of the lives of the Church’s members.

God, and I believe His church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, teaches us that we should not “…exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness…” but rather we are to teach and to uplift, “…only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever” (D&C 121:37,41-42,45-46).

It is somewhat coincedental that I was just speaking of this with my brother lastnight. The fact that there are thousands of Mormon scientist, philosophers, astronomers, biologist, doctors, and experts from every field of knowledge and practice, with degrees from prestigious schools, years of training and schooling, and years of experience, in the eyes of many, it seems, this is all irrelevant. Regardless of anything else, they are still the brainwashed quaky Mormon kooks and everything they say or do is tainted. No matter how rational the position or how good the person, some will always view the Mormons as just some brainwashed kooks. In the end, however, I think most Mormons feel honored and blessed to be charged falsely, ridiculed, mocked, and looked down upon for the sake of the Savior, Jesus Christ. It is the plight of all of saints, ancient or latter-day, to suffer the ridicule of the ignorant. Jesus said, “[f]ools mock, but they shall mourn…” promising that “…[his] grace is sufficient for the meek” (Ether 12:26). The grace of Christ is sufficient for me and if following the path that Jesus Christ has tread (and it is to Jesus that the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ lead) means being brainwashed, then I’ll have a second dose please!

Inspite of the clamour of the belittling crowd, though, I am happy that there are still many of those who have ears that hear and those who have eyes that see.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

What I find more interesting in such threads is the number of Catholics who come out in defence of the Mormons! I have been here a bit longer than you have been, and got to know some of the folks round here a bit better than you do. People like PattyPryor and Tundramom tend to be more of an embarrassment to Catholicism than a pain to Mormonism; and Zundrah seems to be paddling her little boat rapidly along the same stream. I don’t think that Mormons need to get worked up about them all that much.

 

[matthewadam]

From American Heritage Dictionary,

Brainwashing:

1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.

I would not consider what Mormons do to convert and retain members to fall under this definition.

Whilst I do not doubt the intentions of individual JWs, this is exactly what they are taught to do. The ‘religion’ of the Watchtower is a tremendously scary thing when you get to its core. It is all about control…and to be frank, marketing.

In the case of Mormons, while in no way do I share belief in their distinctive and unique doctrines, I would not class them in the same category when it comes to ‘brainwashing’.

 

[zerinus]

Whilst I do not doubt the intentions of individual JWs, this is exactly what they are taught to do. The ‘religion’ of the Watchtower is a tremendously scary thing when you get to its core. It is all about control…and to be frank, marketing.

In the case of Mormons, while in no way do I share belief in their distinctive and unique doctrines, I would not class them in the same category when it comes to ‘brainwashing’.

I am not a JW, and I can neither speak for nor defend their cause. They have to come and speak for themselves if they want to. But I am curious to know how you come to that conclusion with regard to the Mormons.

 

[ricko]

“I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.”
Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:4

mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/how-can-i-know-this-is-true

I don’t see any objectivity in the Mormon statement above. It says that the BOM is true and you will know it is true IF "ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

It is clear in that statement that if you do not believe then you do not have a sincere heart, you did not have real intent and you did not have faith in Christ. The problem lies with YOU in not believing. At the very least, this is mind manipulation.

 

[ricko]

44 And the elders of the church, two or more, shall be called, and shall pray for and alay their bhands upon them in my name; and if they die they shall die unto me, and if they live they shall live unto me.
From Doctrine and Covenants

Notice in the statement above concerning the ability of the Mormon apostles to heal. It gives an out for their inability to heal anyone. However, in the bible, when some of the Apostles did not heal, Jesus blamed it on them for lack of faith.

Since Mormons have actual apostles, it should follow that they would have the same powers of the apostles, that is to heal the sick and raise the dead. They can’t do any of those things because they are not apostles.

 

[chris2009]

Debate all you want but I truly believe it. I believe it more today than yesterday. Agree or disagree. That is what this topic is for, Have fun-

Have fun? Oh I’m sure we will all have a great time with this one.

This is an old imagined ignorant arguement against two easy targets – Mormons and JWs. Two religions that have almost nothing in common doctinally, but are pretty much the only ones who go door to door proselyting and were both started in the 1800’s. Perhaps it started when mainstream religions were losing members to these other churches at a rapid pace.

I have seen many people join the Mormon church in my life and then be disowned by their family. They endure much persecution for what they believe to be right. How is it possible that someone could change - sometimes so rapidly - and give up smoking, alcohol, past sins, etc and join this church? They MUST be brainwashed! Of course there is no way they could have been influenced by the Holy Spirit and have chosen to change their own lives through obedience.

Why don’t we just teach that Mormons have horns again? I’m sure there are plently of ignorant people in the world who would believe it.

I once saw a church’s sign on the outside of their building say, “Don’t read the Book of Mormon. That’s how they get you.” I had to laugh. It is true, the Book of Mormon will convince you that this church is true. Be very careful…

I doubt most good Catholic members believe in this brainwashing nonsense.

I have known many LDS people throughout my life and they are almost always the most intelligent, physically fit, bright people I’ve met. However, I am thoroughly convinced that satan loves ignorance.

Brainwashing is thrown around with the word “cult” all the time. Most people that use it don’t really know what the words mean, or even think about what they are saying, but just pass them on like sheep following what they’ve heard.

A cult is a group of people who gather together to worship. Brainwashing is not the same thing as being persuaded or convinced of something through gaining more knowledge.

QUITE SIMPLY, BRAINWASHING & CULT TEACHINGS ARE AN ATTEMPT FOR INSINCERE PEOPLE TO SCARE OTHERS AWAY FROM SINCERELY INVESTIGATING AND JOINING THE LDS CHURCH. (As well as the JW Church)

 

[chris2009]

From American Heritage Dictionary,

Brainwashing:

1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.

I would not consider what Mormons do to convert and retain members to fall under this definition.

Thank you.

 

[chris2009]

I believe that you have hit on at least one of the nails (bold above). From the very beginning Mormons (to be) are not given the BOM and asked to give their free opinion. They are told that the BOM is true and IS another testament of Jesus Christ and that the Holy Spirit will tell them it is true after praying about it. Here is the beginning of the brainwashing. They are told (in so many words) that the book is true and that if the person has faith the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to them. So first, they are told the book is true and the H.S. will prove it IF the person has faith. Now the person reading it is in a dilemma. If they don’t believe it then they know that they do not have faith so there is something wrong with them. That’s brainwashing

SkinnyJay provided the REAL definition of brainwashing here from the American Heritage Dictionary:
"Brainwashing:

1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs."

You are all missing the key to what brainwashing really is. Brainwashing is FORCED. Is is also aimed at destroying a person’s convictions and attitudes. Simply testifying that the Book of Mormon is true and promising them they will receive an answer by the Holy Ghost fits none of these requirements. In fact, this is exactly what the prophets of the Bible did constantly. “If they don’t believe it then they know that they do not have faith”? The investigator of the church has a CHOICE to believe whatever they want. They are encouraged and persuaded, but never forced. And the investigator’s convictions and attitudes are respected and not destroyed. The missionaries build upon their beliefs, not destroy them.

Doctrine and Convenants 121:41-42 best defines the way LDS are expected to teach:
“41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile”

It is the Savior’s plan of agency and free will to all mankind. Not Lucifer’s plan of force.

 

[chris2009]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Vvahwo9bWz0/SmMzg7YWYEI/AAAAAAAACeg/RVERgEapsXQ/s1600/mormonwithgun.jpg

foolish? Indeed.
Mormons on facebook

Granted, some 19 year olds need a kick in the pants.

I know what you mean. 60,000 19 year olds spreading the gospel throughout the earth – is this what the LDS church is relying upon? I served a mission years ago, so I know. I always said, “The church must be true, otherwise these 19 year olds would have destroyed the church long ago.” Most missionaries do a ton of maturing on their missions.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormons use emotional manipulation, which is covert aggression.

The JWs use far more overt tactics. “Shunning”, being the most well known.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I know what you mean. 60,000 19 year olds spreading the gospel throughout the earth – is this what the LDS church is relying upon? I served a mission years ago, so I know. I always said, “The church must be true, otherwise these 19 year olds would have destroyed the church long ago.” Most missionaries do a ton of maturing on their missions.

Yes, you have the same attitude of 19 year old Elder McGill.

 

[ricko]

SkinnyJay provided the REAL definition of brainwashing here from the American Heritage Dictionary:
"Brainwashing:

1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs."

You are all missing the key to what brainwashing really is. Brainwashing is FORCED. Is is also aimed at destroying a person’s convictions and attitudes. Simply testifying that the Book of Mormon is true and promising them they will receive an answer by the Holy Ghost fits none of these requirements. In fact, this is exactly what the prophets of the Bible did constantly. “If they don’t believe it then they know that they do not have faith”? The investigator of the church has a CHOICE to believe whatever they want. They are encouraged and persuaded, but never forced. And the investigator’s convictions and attitudes are respected and not destroyed. The missionaries build upon their beliefs, not destroy them.
.

Typical Mormon. You take the facts and distort them or you selectively pick a portion of the truth without revealing the remainder. You did this when you selected definition #1 and ignored definition #2 which plainly applied to the LDS. Here is a repeat of #2 along with another to back it up:

1. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.

impose beliefs on somebody: to impose a set of usually political or religious beliefs on somebody by the use of various coercive methods of indoctrination, including destruction of the victim’s prior beliefs

Leave it to a Mormon to try and gain sympathy by suggesting that we were saying it was FORCED brainwashing that was being applied when it was not.

 

[chris2009]

Yes, you have the same attitude of 19 year old Elder McGill.

You have a lot of growing up to do yourself.

 

[chris2009]

Mormons use emotional manipulation, which is covert aggression.

The JWs use far more overt tactics. “Shunning”, being the most well known.

Yes, it’s very popular in the world today to be Mormon or JW. You’re almost forced to join.

 

[chris2009]

Typical Mormon. You take the facts and distort them or you selectively pick a portion of the truth without revealing the remainder. You did this when you selected definition #1 and ignored definition #2 which plainly applied to the LDS. Here is a repeat of #2 along with another to back it up:

1. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.

impose beliefs on somebody: to impose a set of usually political or religious beliefs on somebody by the use of various coercive methods of indoctrination, including destruction of the victim’s prior beliefs

Leave it to a Mormon to try and gain sympathy by suggesting that we were saying it was FORCED brainwashing that was being applied when it was not.

I’m not asking for sympathy. I’m asking for common sense.

Concentrated means of persuasion, advertising campaign, repeated suggestions. All of the devil!

You’ve been trying to persuade me and are making repeated suggestions – so I suppose you are engaging in BRAINWASHING! Help! I can’t control myself – I’m a zombie follower!

Shall we list the great brainwashers of the past that fit these descriptions?

All the prophets and apostles of the Bible, Jesus Christ, Catholics, Protestants, Mormons and… Walmart.

The reason I didn’t include definition#2 was because it seemed like it pretty much would apply to every living, breathing thing upon the face of the planet.