The Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are Brainwashed

[MaryElizabeth22]

I am not a JW, and I can neither speak for nor defend their cause. They have to come and speak for themselves if they want to. But I am curious to know how you come to that conclusion with regard to the Mormons.

If you had read my post #24, you would have read some examples of Mormon’s unique doctrines. Here are those examples plus some others. I would write more, but my list is already very long.

1. Great Apostasy
   There is absolutely no proof of a “Great Apostasy.” If it did happen, when and where did it begin? Who started it? Who defended against it? Where is it in the history books? Why would Jesus start the Catholic Church with St. Peter as the first Pope and say the “gates of hell shall not prevail against it,” and then the Mormons teach that the gates of hell prevailed against the Catholic Church.

Matt. 16: 18-19 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

1. Bible
   If there was a “Great Apostasy” then why do Mormons read the Bible. The Bible came from the Catholic Church in 400 AD. Wouldn’t the Bible be an “apostate” book?

Also, why constantly state that the Bible is incomplete and yet supposedly read it? If it’s not complete, why didn’t Joseph Smith receive the “complete Bible”? He received the Book of Mormon, why not the “uncorrupt” Bible or at least the “missing” passages? Jesus said that God’s Word shall not pass away.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

1. Trinity
   There is but only one God, three persons in one, that Mormons don’t believe in. The Bible continually calls Jesus “God” and “Lord.”

Father
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

Son
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

Holy Spirit
2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

1. Polytheism
   The Bible does not say that active male members of God’s church will occupy their own planet one day, and become a “god” of that planet after they pass away. It is Satan that tried to get Adam and Eve to believe they can be like God if they eat of the fruit. Satan, himself, tried to become like God and look what happened to him.
2. Celestial Marriage
   How can we be married in heaven, if Jesus said there is no marriage in heaven?

Luke 20:34-36
And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

1. Temple Rituals
   Mormons are not allowed to discuss their temple rituals. Strange, neither can Freemasons. From what I know about Mormon temple rituals and Freemason rituals, they both are very similar, maybe because Joseph Smith was a registered Freemason.

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

1. The Book of Mormon
   Where are all the archeological sites of the ancient Hebrew people who settled in America as written in the Book of Mormon? They were supposedly here for over 1000 years, so there must be some physical proof. I can go to Israel and find actual proof that Jesus lived there.

8.Moroni
Who really is this angel named Nephi or Moroni that had “appeared” to Joseph Smith and led him to the “gold plates.” Why is this angel not identified anywhere in the Bible? Well, the Bible says beware.

Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

And this “angel from heaven” taught a different heaven then what is written in the Bible.

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

[Stephen168]

You have a lot of growing up to do yourself.
chris2009;5475189:

Yes, it’s very popular in the world today to be Mormon or JW. You’re almost forced to join.

I’m not asking for sympathy.

 

[zerinus]

If you had read my post #24, you would have read some examples of Mormon’s unique doctrines. Here are those examples plus some others. I would write more, but my list is already very long. . . .

I wrote that post in reply to MatthewAdam, and on second reading I realize that it was a mistake! I had misunderstood his post. I try to read posts too quickly sometimes and misunderstand them. Sometimes my mind get tired and I don’t concentrate very well. So my apologies to MatthewAdam for misunderstanding his post. Your post, however, bears no relevance at all to what he had said or I had written!

My apologies again to MatthewAdam for misunderstanding his post.

 

[chris2009]

In the end it boils down to who do you believe? Do you believe that God the Father had human flesh and a mother goddess and that Jesus preached to native americans? Do you believe that an entire race was cursed with dark skin? Do you believe that the Bible and the Church that Jesus Christ set up on the rock of Peter was false and languished for 1800 years until Joseph Smith found some plates and “translated” them in secrecy?

It is very difficult to answer questions when you say things in a shotgun approach. Anti-mormons do this all the time to cause distraction because they know it takes time to answer each question in detail.

Do you believe that the trinity is boloney

You won’t find the word “trinity” in the Bible. It was developed later.

and that celebrating one’s birthday is evil?

I have nothing against celebrating birthdays or holidays, but I’ll defend the JW’s here. From what I understand, they are concerned mainly with the origins of these holidays or “holy days”. There is no doubt that the Roman Pagan beliefs blended with Christianity. For example the Pagan Goddess Eoster – goddess of fertility coincided with the resurrection and Spring time. The holiday of Easter was celebrated combining Christian and Pagan themes. Eggs, rabbits, etc relate to the goddess of fertility. I believe this is why the JWs avoid holidays.

Or how about the 30,000 saved and the other things JWs teach?

You need to do some more studying. It’s 144,000 saved in heaven. The JWs believe the other righteous will live on paradise forever on earth. (I don’t believe this but make sure you get your facts straight) The 144,000 is found in the book of Revelation chap 7 so it is a true principle. I’d like to hear what other Christians believe regarding this - hello it’s in the Bible.

Both of these religions are predicated on one man’s interpretation of salvation at least 1800 years after the fact.

Both of these are completely unrelated when it comes to doctrine although many like to lump them together conveniently. I admire the JW’s for their dedication and hard work.

They are also based on the notion of apostasy and that the Church was corrupted, evil, and false for 1800 years…hardly compelling.

Hardly compelling? You need to read some history my friend.

And the way the Mormons and JW’s have espoused that the Bible was either mis-translated or parts of it should be removed/re-vamped are extremely revealing of a cult mentality.

Yes, we can’t stop all those cults from vigorously retranslating the Bible. We actually use the King James Version. But the JST is a great study reference. I’m sure their was no corruption during the dark ages.

Catholicism is 2000 years old as is Orthodoxy. Even Anglicans and Lutherans and other protestants hold fast to the Bible as whole, true, and unwavering as the Word of God.

Old is good. The Jews are older, is that better?
The Anglican religion was created by King Henry the Eighth because he was ticked off that the pope wouldn’t let him divorce his wife and marry young Anne Boleyn. The Lutherans came from Martin Luther who had big problems with the Catholic Church.

I’ve read the Book of Mormon twice and found it to be absolutely a work of fiction and hardly consistent with the truths we see in Holy Scripture.

I have read the Book of Mormon more than twice - (seven times on my two year mission). I have also read the Bible, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price many many times. I have found all of these scriptures to be true and from God.

And looking at the history of Joseph Smith and his run-ins with the law for gazing at peep stones

Don’t forget Jesus, Peter and Paul. They had BIG problems with the law. Joseph was once arrested for casting out an evil spirit. He was found guilty and then let go since there was no law against it. Joseph’s main offense was putting the country in an uproar by preaching his doctrines. Although Joseph was tarred and feathered (acid skin-eating tar), beat constantly, poisoned, had children die due to the mobs, falsely arrested and persecuted, and then he and his brother shot by a mob while in Carthage Jail awaiting trail - Joseph still continued faithful in the work the Lord asked him to do. Joseph lived and died financially poor at the age of 38. Any imposter would have given up long before and would have said forget it, it’s not worth it. Joseph gained nothing in this life, but left behind a legacy and a united church 200 years later with 13.5 million members world-wide.

 

[chris2009]

and his so-called “translation” of the “Book of Abraham,” oh man, that’s a keeper!

Smith obtained an Egyptian sarcofagus and a a mummy with a scroll in hieroglyphics. As usual, he claimed to translate it and said it was the “Book of Abraham.” It has a lengthy narrative about Abraham’s lost teachings and wanderings, etc. In the 1970’s or 80’s that scroll was examined and proved to be a scroll showing how to embalm mummies! Just google the Book of Abraham and Joseph Smith together.

This is all clearly explained here:
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Papyri

Originally the mummies and scrolls were thought to be completely destroyed in the Chicago fire of 1871. However in 1967, some fragments were found in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York City, and given to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The above article states, “Dr. Hugh Nibley writes:
We are told that papyri were in beautiful condition when Joseph Smith got them, and that one of them when unrolled on the floor extended through two rooms of the Mansion House.
Nothing like this has survived today. Dr. Gee, believes that Joseph Smith originally had five papyrus scrolls. Of these five scrolls, only eleven fragments of two scrolls have survived. Dr. Gee estimates that the scroll containing Facsimile 1 may have been ten feet long and that in all, Joseph may have had eight times as much papyri as what is currently extant”

However, there is some amazing evidence that Abraham taught the ancient Egyptians many things regarding Astronomy. I could go into that sometime if you’d like.

How can people trust Smith or Charles Russell? They have such shady pasts?

Shady pasts? Joseph Smith and Charles Russell don’t have much in common. Russell never claimed to be a prophet of God or to receive revelations like Peter and Moses.

Add to that the myriad of proven inconsistencies with the Book of Mormon and North American resources, geography, and native peoples, it’s proven itself to be false…There were no horses in North America until the Spanish but somehow they were there in ancient times, etc…The BOM is full of anachronisms showing it is false.

Again, another shotgun approach. Let’s pick one or two and go from there. Nothing proves that the Book of Mormon is false. To the contrary, there is a vast amount of evidence that it is true. You just need to look in the right places.

fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/AshHorse/

I promise you that anti-mormons are not going to show you evidence of the truth of the Book of Mormon even if they have it.

For example for years it was said there were no wheels in Ancient America. The Book of Mormon mentions wheels. Archaeologists, however, have found over one hundred examples of wheeled artifacts in the Americas. The truth will eventually come out.

This link is quite thorough and helpful to show such anachronisms and inconsistencies

mormonmesoamerica.com/

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Hmmm. Am I a brainwashed Catholic because I think after Catholic claims, LDS are the most viable? If Protestants were right in rebelling against the visible kingdom of God, I wouldn’t be content to remain merely in rebellion. I would be looking for a restoration of the visible kingdom such as Mohammed, Bahaullah, Joseph Smith, or some future prophet may offer. It is better in my opinion to overestimate the strength of one’s opponent than to underestimate. LDS claims are on stronger grounds than most Catholics are willing to admit. Being utterly confident that they are wrong about the apostasy, I grant that if there WAS an apostasy, their position would be well worth consideration.

Rory

 

[ricko]

Hmmm. Am I a brainwashed Catholic because I think after Catholic claims, LDS are the most viable? If Protestants were right in rebelling against the visible kingdom of God, I wouldn’t be content to remain merely in rebellion. I would be looking for a restoration of the visible kingdom such as Mohammed, Bahaullah, Joseph Smith, or some future prophet may offer. It is better in my opinion to overestimate the strength of one’s opponent than to underestimate. LDS claims are on stronger grounds than most Catholics are willing to admit. Being utterly confident that they are wrong about the apostasy, I grant that if there WAS an apostasy, their position would be well worth consideration.

Rory

Viable? Then you have no problem with

Baptism for the dead

No baptism for infants

More than one God

Marriage for eternity

On going revelations to their prophet

Believing that there were great cities in the America’s with no evidence of such

Believing that Joseph Smith received the interpretation from god by placing a “seer stone” in a hat and sticking his face in it

Believe that God is a man with flesh and bones like anyone else

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Viable? Then you have no problem with

Baptism for the dead

No baptism for infants

More than one God

Marriage for eternity

On going revelations to their prophet

Believing that there were great cities in the America’s with no evidence of such

Believing that Joseph Smith received the interpretation from god by placing a “seer stone” in a hat and sticking his face in it

Believe that God is a man with flesh and bones like anyone else

Hi ricko,

If there were an apostasy, would you expect that the apostates were right about everything? I wouldn’t. My comments can only be understood in the context of a choice that excludes the Catholic Church. It is academic, hypothetical. But given that one error, which is embraced by all of Protestantism, LDS claims are very strong. Cut loose from Apostolic Tradition I do not see how to know that distinctly Mormon teaching is wrong. That is why I cannot be persuaded that they are in some unique fashion more “brainwashed” than anybody else who rejects the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

I could defend each of those teachings as a Mormon. We can’t beg the question in discussions with Latter-day Saints. Well we can, but it will be folly. If you want to examine one of their distinct teachings you can only do it under the assumption that they are right about the Apostasy question. Because I vehemently deny that the Catholic Church is apostate, I have given no serious consideration to these other teachings that you mention. But I am familiar with them and they seem reasonable within the LDS paradigm.

Rory

 

[ricko]

That is why I cannot be persuaded that they are in some unique fashion more “brainwashed” than anybody else who rejects the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

No one stated that anybody that rejects the Catholic Church was brainwashed, most are not, some are. I myself find, after studying the LDS, that their claims are weak not strong as you state. Your statements make me think you know very little about their teachings.

However, I can see that there is nothing to be gained along these lines.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

No one stated that anybody that rejects the Catholic Church was brainwashed, most are not, some are. I myself find, after studying the LDS, that their claims are weak not strong as you state. Your statements make me think you know very little about their teachings.

However, I can see that there is nothing to be gained along these lines.

Hey ricko,

I am not trying to convert anybody to Mormonism.

The original poster specified Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses as “brainwashed”. Maybe this isn’t what the original poster meant, but I can’t agree with Catholics who might contend that among non-Catholics, LDS are particularly incoherent or untenable. I am almost completely ignorant of Jehovah’s Witnesses, having never read any of their literature.

With regards to Latter-day Saints, I have to confess that I have only read perhaps a dozen books by LDS authors. I concede that in comparison to one who would give serious consideration to LDS thought, I “know very little about their teachings.” But I just didn’t see the glaring holes in their thinking which you seem to see. Rather, I see worse holes among those who believing the Catholic Church to be apostate, while agreeing with Catholic Councils. I find Mormonism, with a Restoration and its more radical departure from the Catholic Church to be more plausible than the compromise of the Reformers who would rip the heart out of Apostolic authority while agreeing with much more of the substance of what that authority teaches.

To me, it is almost an argument in their favor that they reject the conclusions of the Ecumenical Councils and offer strange doctrines which are more thoroughly at odds with Catholic teaching. I still don’t see any merit in the proposition that among the non-Catholics, Mormons are uniquely “brainwashed”.

Rory

 

[Finrock]

Good evening ricko. I hope time and life has been treating you well!

Believing that there were great cities in the America’s with no evidence of such

I recall several weeks back now, we began a discussion on this very point about there not being “any” evidence of great cities in the Americas. I am still profoundly in awe that you hold this belief.

That there were great civilizations and cities in the Americas prior to European colonization is an* indisputable* fact (and I emphasize indisputable). As proof I wish to draw your attention to the Olmec civilization, the Mayan civilization, and the Aztecs (just to name three of several great ancient American civilizations). Please, take some time and study the Mesoamercian civilizations from any source you wish and you will quickly find great civilizations, great cities, roads, commerce, writting, wars, etc.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[chris2009]

With all due respect I wish to defend these doctrines.

Viable? Then you have no problem with

Baptism for the dead

1 Cor. 15:29 “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”

1 Peter 3:18-20 "18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. "

1 Peter 4:6 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Between His death and resurrection, Jesus bridged the gulf between paradise and spirit prison so they can be taught the gospel, accept ordinances performed on their behalf on earth and obtain these blessings in paradise and await their resurrection.

No baptism for infants

I don’t find any place in the Bible that follows the practice of infant baptism. This doctrine began during the dark ages.

More than one God

Catholics believe in at least three Gods. But there was a big fight about it with the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds that evolved the doctrine.

John 10:32-35 “32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;”

Jesus did say this earlier:
Psalms 82:6 “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”

The Hebrew “Elohim” is the plural form as in:
Gen 1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”

Marriage for eternity

Matt 19:6 “Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”

On going revelations to their prophet

Were the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds revelation? They changed and redefined the very nature of God. I have not been able to find in the Bible where it says that revelation from God will end. It takes revelation to end revelation.

Believing that there were great cities in the America’s with no evidence of such

Wow. You need to see some pictures. Giant mesoamerican pyramids that put the ones in Egypt to shame. Highways, farming, calendars, civilizations, etc. Have you ever heard of Quezalcoatl? Read this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl

The bearded white god that said he would one day return. It is suggested that when Cortez came to the New World, Moctezuma initially believed Cortez was this bearded white god. It is suggested Cortez took adjantage of the legend. Columbus was also worshipped as a god upon his arrival to the New World.

Believing that Joseph Smith received the interpretation from god by placing a “seer stone” in a hat and sticking his face in it

Ex. 28:30 “And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron’s heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually.”

Lev. 8:8 “And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim.”

1 Sam 28:6 “And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.”

In the Old Testiment the tribes of Israel would constantly go to the high priest to ask the Lord by Urim and Thummim whether they should go to battle or not. This was a constant theme. Often lots were cast and the Lord revealed His will through this. This may seem very strange to people today, but it was common practice in those days.

Numbers 27:21 “And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the Lord: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.”

Ezra 2:63 “And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.”

Rev. 2:17 “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.”

1 Sam 9:9 “(Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)”

Believe that God is a man with flesh and bones like anyone else

Gen. 1:27 God created man in his own image.
Ex. 31:18 written with the finger of God.
Ex. 33:11 Lord spake unto Moses face to face.
Ex. 33:23 thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not.
Luke 24:39 for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Acts 7:56 the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Philip. 3:21 our vile body . . . fashioned like unto his glorious body.
1 Jn. 3:2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him
John 5:37 “And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”

 

[zaffiroborant]

I don’t find any place in the Bible that follows the practice of infant baptism. **This doctrine began during the dark ages.
**

More seminary stuff?

 

[chris2009]

Viable? Then you have no problem with
Believing that there were great cities in the America’s with no evidence of such

Sorry for the lengthy post. I wanted to get this in though. From wikipedia article:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl

“Some scholars have noted a resemblance of the Quetzalcoatl legend with that of the myth of the Pahana held by the Hopis of northern Arizona. Scholars have described many similarities between the myths of the Aztecs and those of the American Southwest, and posit a common root. The Hopi describe the Pahana as the “Lost White Brother,” and they expected his eventual return from the east during which he would destroy the wicked and begin a new era of peace and prosperity. Hopi tradition maintains that they at first mistook the Spanish conquistadors as the Pahana when they arrived on the Hopi mesas in the 16th century.”

As you may know, in the Book of Mormon, the focal point is when Jesus visits the people of ancient america after His death and resurrection. He blesses the people and promises that He will one day return.

Quetzalcoatl means feathered serpent. Some feel this means half heavenly and half earthly.

 

[lauralikescake]

Hi Everyone! I am new to the site although I have been reading it at length as I attend a Catholic University. I am pretty versed in many religions (although many of you are clearly over m head in knowledge ) because of my schooling and because I was once a Protestant and after being taught about the LDS Faith for 4 years I was baptized almost 8 months ago.

Anyway, I cant say I know much about early American Civilizations, however I do not believe one can say there is no proof to the BoM. My father in law went on his mission to Nicaragua/Honduras in the late '70s. While he was there he was able to be one of the first missionaries in a region that had not yet been included in their “field”. This was a very small native village. While he was there he saw a woman weaving a tapestry and asked the story behind it. She told him of a lone man named Moroni (though a slightly different pronunciation) that was the very last of his tribe. He had come through their village with his golden book that contained the history of his ancestors. He told them many of the stories contained within this book and they admired him for he was a great warrior and seer. Thus they wanted him to join their tribe. Alas, he said he could not for he had a journey he must complete and he left this tribe. The tapestry she was weaving was of the golden plates. It has the ancient symbols on it that look like the ones described on the plates by those who have seen them. This is not a false story. I have this tapestry hanging in my living room and woud post a picture if I knew how.

So for those of you who say there is no evidence… ok fine, this is evidence to me. Heck the greatest minds of the day said the world was flat and it was a crazy notion to say it was round. And those of you who say Mormons are brainwashed well that is just stupid in my opinion. People do leave the church; many have. If the church were brainwashing people would others be able to leave so simply? I think not. But hey that just my opinion

 

[zaffiroborant]

Hi Everyone! I am new to the site although I have been reading it at length as I attend a Catholic University. I am pretty versed in many religions (although many of you are clearly over m head in knowledge ) because of my schooling and because I was once a Protestant and after being taught about the LDS Faith for 4 years I was baptized almost 8 months ago.

Anyway, I cant say I know much about early American Civilizations, however I do not believe one can say there is no proof to the BoM. My father in law went on his mission to Nicaragua/Honduras in the late '70s. While he was there he was able to be one of the first missionaries in a region that had not yet been included in their “field”. This was a very small native village. While he was there he saw a woman weaving a tapestry and asked the story behind it. She told him of a lone man named Moroni (though a slightly different pronunciation) that was the very last of his tribe. He had come through their village with his golden book that contained the history of his ancestors. He told them many of the stories contained within this book and they admired him for he was a great warrior and seer. Thus they wanted him to join their tribe. Alas, he said he could not for he had a journey he must complete and he left this tribe. The tapestry she was weaving was of the golden plates. It has the ancient symbols on it that look like the ones described on the plates by those who have seen them. This is not a false story. I have this tapestry hanging in my living room and woud post a picture if I knew how.

So for those of you who say there is no evidence… ok fine, this is evidence to me. Heck the greatest minds of the day said the world was flat and it was a crazy notion to say it was round. And those of you who say Mormons are brainwashed well that is just stupid in my opinion. People do leave the church; many have. If the church were brainwashing people would others be able to leave so simply? I think not. But hey that just my opinion

It’s stuff like this that makes one go hmmm when the word brainwashed is used.

My MIL who got her first computer 5 years ago at age 87 can post images on the internet, I think you could learn too, and we’d all like to see your proof of Moroni and the plates.

 

[chris2009]

More seminary stuff?

My own personal seminary. It’s called reading.

Can you find infant baptisms in the Bible? I cannot. However, I have read the writings of Eusebius and Mosheim regarding how things evolved.

Baptism by immersion is a symbol of the death and resurrection.

Rom 6:4 “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

During the first half of the third century sprinkling with water was allowed in place thereof. Cyprian, the learned bishop of Carthage, advocated the propriety of sprinkling in lieu of immersion in cases of physical weakness; and the practice thus started, later became general.

It was also decided around this time that delaying baptism for infants would be dangerous, should the child die and be condemned. However, this is absurd because little children don’t have the ability to sin.

 

[chris2009]

It’s stuff like this that makes one go hmmm when the word brainwashed is used.

My MIL who got her first computer 5 years ago at age 87 can post images on the internet, I think you could learn too, and we’d all like to see your proof of Moroni and the plates.

You appear to think everyone is brainwashed who disagrees with you. I think we can all learn from each other and throw out this brainwash nonsense.

 

[lauralikescake]

Hi Everyone! I am new to the site although I have been reading it at length as I attend a Catholic University. I am pretty versed in many religions (although many of you are clearly over m head in knowledge ) because of my schooling and because I was once a Protestant and after being taught about the LDS Faith for 4 years I was baptized almost 8 months ago.

Anyway, I cant say I know much about early American Civilizations, however I do not believe one can say there is no proof to the BoM. My father in law went on his mission to Nicaragua/Honduras in the late '70s. While he was there he was able to be one of the first missionaries in a region that had not yet been included in their “field”. This was a very small native village. While he was there he saw a woman weaving a tapestry and asked the story behind it. She told him of a lone man named Moroni (though a slightly different pronunciation) that was the very last of his tribe. He had come through their village with his golden book that contained the history of his ancestors. He told them many of the stories contained within this book and they admired him for he was a great warrior and seer. Thus they wanted him to join their tribe. Alas, he said he could not for he had a journey he must complete and he left this tribe. The tapestry she was weaving was of the golden plates. It has the ancient symbols on it that look like the ones described on the plates by those who have seen them. This is not a false story. I have this tapestry hanging in my living room and woud post a picture if I knew how.

So for those of you who say there is no evidence… ok fine, this is evidence to me. Heck the greatest minds of the day said the world was flat and it was a crazy notion to say it was round. And those of you who say Mormons are brainwashed well that is just stupid in my opinion. People do leave the church; many have. If the church were brainwashing people would others be able to leave so simply? I think not. But hey that just my opinion

I had to create a flickr account for this so I hope you enjoy it

flickr.com/photos/40710696@N07/3748811330/

 

[zaffiroborant]

I had to create a flickr account for this so I hope you enjoy it

flickr.com/photos/40710696@N07/3748811330/

I quilt too