The most damaging innovation to Catholic parishes in the last 50 years...

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Really? In that analogy the carnal pleasures of the body are bring compared to the Mass, and a desire for reverence to wilful murder, blasphemy! The desire for contraception and abortion are born from the ideas of false liberty, that we are the primary owners of our own body (and all within it) instead of God. The belief that we are absolute masters of this world. The desire for peace, quiet and reverence at Mass is born out of love and submission to God; how can the two be compared?

Again nobody is kicking kids out of the Church, just providing them with a location where their needs can be met!
I’m talking about our attitude on seeing children as inconvenience. Okay, lets give one more example, couple gets married, doesn’t want children. Why? They don’t want the financial burden. Its not just about carnal pleasures, its everything that revolves around ultimately children being seen as inconveniences. Whether its the pursuit of carnal pleasures, financial gain, or quite time in the restaurant or in church, are children nothing more than distractions?

Is children being children irreverent and displeasing to God?
 
I’m talking about our attitude on seeing children as inconvenience. Okay, lets give one more example, couple gets married, doesn’t want children. Why? They don’t want the financial burden. Its not just about carnal pleasures, its everything that revolves around ultimately children being seen as inconveniences. Whether its the pursuit of carnal pleasures, financial gain, or quite time in the restaurant or in church, are children nothing more than distractions?

Is children being children irreverent and displeasing to God?
Read my previous post.
 
This story was related to me by a a friend of mine who was a DRE here in my diocese.

One Advent, they invited a well-known priest to give a parish retreat.
This priest was known for his forceful, yet deeply spiritual and loving preaching.
During the last night of the retreat a mother took stood up with her crying & fussy infant.
The priest stopped in mid sentence. My friend gasped, thinking an admonishment of some sort was coming.

And the priest said to the congregation-
“Do you hear that? These are the sames sounds our Lord & Savior made on a night long ago. Please don’t take that baby out of here, let us use his “joyful noise” as a special reminder that God loved us so much, he became like this little one for us.”

Needless to say, my friend said there was not a dry eye in the place!!
I get misty just thinking about the look on her face as she told me the story! 😛
 
This story was related to me by a a friend of mine who was a DRE here in my diocese.

One Advent, they invited a well-known priest to give a parish retreat.
This priest was known for his forceful, yet deeply spiritual and loving preaching.
During the last night of the retreat a mother took stood up with her crying & fussy infant.
The priest stopped in mid sentence. My friend gasped, thinking an admonishment of some sort was coming.

And the priest said to the congregation-
“Do you hear that? These are the sames sounds our Lord & Savior made on a night long ago. Please don’t take that baby out of here, let us use his “joyful noise” as a special reminder that God loved us so much, he became like this little one for us.”

Needless to say, my friend said there was not a dry eye in the place!!
I get misty just thinking about the look on her face as she told me the story! 😛
That is beautiful!!
 
I could not open the link in the OP so I’m not sure exactly what the Cardinal was saying. However, I don’t believe this is about the children. We all have a duty to show respect to fellow parishioners and allow them to pray, meditate, listen to the sermon and follow the mass in peace.

So, I am all for the use of crying rooms and would encourage any families who have noisy children to use them if they are available. My wife and I have removed our own small children out of Mass on many occasions, simply out of respect for others. We are now part of a large parish with many large families with many noisy youngsters, and I wish some of them would get to know the crying room facilities a little better.
 
I could not open the link in the OP so I’m not sure exactly what the Cardinal was saying. However, I don’t believe this is about the children. We all have a duty to show respect to fellow parishioners and allow them to pray, meditate, listen to the sermon and follow the mass in peace.

So, I am all for the use of crying rooms and would encourage any families who have noisy children to use them if they are available. My wife and I have removed our own small children out of Mass on many occasions, simply out of respect for others. We are now part of a large parish with many large families with many noisy youngsters, and I wish some of them would get to know the crying room facilities a little better.
It wasn’t a cardinal, just an article from a deacon.

Why is the sound of children not a source of meditation about God? Children are life! The cry of a child is a sign of life and a sign of innocence, both something we value in our Church!
 
The removal of High Altars, I find quite appalling.

The most annoying is public address systems poorly eq’d.
I see exactly where you’re comming from, but what really gets me is their destruction to make way for these tables.
 
It wasn’t a cardinal, just an article from a deacon.

Why is the sound of children not a source of meditation about God? Children are life! The cry of a child is a sign of life and a sign of innocence, both something we value in our Church!
Well I suppose we can agree that everybody’s different. Most people can’t “meditate” to the sound of crying children, but if some can, that’s great. I can’t.
 
As the mother of 14 children aging in range from married with one of his own, down to two next week; I do believe that there is a place for crying rooms as an extension of the church. I believe that as ling as they are used properly and not as a place where children are allowed to run riot and parents enjoy a chat, they can be a great thing. But I don’t believe that there should be an expectation that any kid who makes a bit of noise should be in there. Some parents prefer to teach their children how to behave in Mass, in Mass! Most of the time I’m one of them!
 
It wasn’t a cardinal, just an article from a deacon.

Why is the sound of children not a source of meditation about God? Children are life! The cry of a child is a sign of life and a sign of innocence, both something we value in our Church!
Sorry, Deacon.

What you say is absolutely correct and everyone should value our children. But, Mass should retain a sense of reverence and regardless of how much we love & cherish our kids we must give a higher reverence to God. There have been times I could not even hear the sermon for screaming kids, so yeah, I think crying rooms should be used when they are available.
 
What a ridiculous statement I had never seen one until I moved to a very cool climate where the church has one…fabulous when the weather is wet/bitterly cold etc. I lived in the subtropics prior to my move and the church did not have one, in fact it was far too small for the congregation so alot of folk ended sitting on the church porch with littlies and would creep up the aisles to hear the sermon.😛
 
Everything in life has its history. It begins one way and evolves. The parish, as we know it in the United States is also a product of evolution. I’m not taking side on this cry room question. I see both sides of the coin. But history has a way of helping us understand things better.

Prior to the existence of parishes as we know them, there were monastery churches and cathedrals. Monastery churches were mainly for the benefit of the monks. Since most monasteries were very large, they needed churches to accommodate the monks for mass. There was usually an open space in the rear for the peasants who worked on the monastery farms. Remember that monasteries were not just religious houses; they were feudal estates. Parents and children stood at the rear of the church during mass. There were no benches or chairs. Only the religious had a seating. My guess is that if a child became uncomfortable or wrestles, it was easy for the mother to step outside, since they were already at the rear of the church.

The other option was the cathedral. If you have ever seen a European or Latin American cathedral, they were more elaborate and architecturally artistic than the monastery churches. However, they had seating only 1/3 of the way from the sanctuary back. Almost two thirds of the cathedral was open space where knights could attend mass on their horses and the peasants could stand. Only the aristocracy sat. The aristocracy did not carry their infants around with them. They had nannies to care for them. These infants stayed home. The peasants carried their infants with them. However, at the cathedral church, they stood in the rear. When the infant became wrestles or uncomfortable, the mother could step outside. Eventually, vestibules were added in places where they had severe winters. You didn’t have to take a crying child outside into the cold.

Many diocesan priests and some abbots erected small chapels for the outlying areas. They depended on the cathedral or the local monastery. These chapels were the predecessors to our modern parish church. They were usually very small and remote. Only peasants attended mass there, since the aristocracy lived in the city during the winter months, in order to remain close to the royal court and they retired to their countryseats in the summer. However, the wealthy usually had a chapel on their property. A priest would be sent from the local religious house to celebrate mass there. The master and mistress of the house would attend mass, without their infants who were at the manor with the nanny. The servants and the tenant farmers would also attend. They too were at the rear of the chapel with their infants in tow. However, the chapels were small enough to allow a quick escape.

While they did not have cry rooms, as we can see, there were escape routes for parents with distressed children. It was not that the children were unwelcome. Parents would escape, because the child was genuinely distressed about something that had to be addressed. I should add here that it was very common for peasants to breastfeed their babies, even during mass. This reduced some of the crying.

These small chapels eventually became small parishes. As cities grew larger, small chapels crept up in different neighborhoods. These eventually became today’s parishes. As parishes grew they also evolved. The monks were no longer present. They remained in the monasteries. Secular priests, attached to a diocese, attended these parishes. With the migration of Catholics to the Americas, there came Franciscans, Jesuits and Dominicans. They built chapels that eventually grew into diocesan parishes.

The American phenomenon changed the face of the Catholic parish. There was no longer segregation between the aristocracy and the peasantry. Protestants introduced the concept of the pew into their churches and American Catholics adopted it and exported it too. We no longer had the open space in the rear of the church where a mother could attend mass with her infant, while remaining close to the door to make a quick escape, if necessary. In addition, the early American Catholic was predominantly poor. We now had infants embedded in the body of the congregation where there is not always a quick escape route to attend to the needs of a crying child.

I’m not saying that the cry room is a good idea or a bad idea. I’m saying that we have to understand why no on ever thought of it. It would never have occurred to anyone prior to the development of the modern American parish, because the spatial organization of the larger churches was different and small chapels were . . . small. Mothers didn’t feel trapped with a crying child.

I do believe that the parish is a place for the family and children are part of the family. They must never be excluded. I also understand the discomfort of a parent who has a distressed child and feels trapped in a pew with 10 people sitting on either side.

I did see a rather interesting arrangement at a church that I visited in Bogota, Columba. They designated pews near the exits reserved for the disabled, seniors and parents with infants. They don’t have to use them. They are reserved for their use. The distance between the one pew and the other in front of it is about three feet, just a little wider than a bulkhead seat on an airplane. You can get in and out without having to climb over people. It also allows for quick evacuation in case of fires or other emergencies. I have to take my hat off to the Jesuits who built the church. It’s a concept that I have never seen in the USA. It does not require a lot of space. If I recall, there were four such pews, one near each exit. Two were in the rear and the other two were in the front and sides.

That’s just my two cents on this subject.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Sorry, Deacon.

What you say is absolutely correct and everyone should value our children. But, Mass should retain a sense of reverence and regardless of how much we love & cherish our kids we must give a higher reverence to God. There have been times I could not even hear the sermon for screaming kids, so yeah, I think crying rooms should be used when they are available.
Let us not forget that the Second Person of the Trinity was once a child who was taken to temple on the 8th day after his birth and every Friday night and Saturday morning too. He did cry when he wet his nappy, was hungry, had collick, was too hot or too cold, or just plain tired.

A crying child takes nothing away from the reverence of mass. The crying may be an inconvenience to the person who can’t hear ther sermon, but he or she is not an inconvenience to God. In the end, it is God who has to be pleased, not the congregation. The Eternal Father was pleased with the human cry of His son, why would he not be pleased with the cry of your son or my son.

The moment that we say that an infant’s presence is an inconveniene to God and to reverence, we’re stepping on a slippery slope. There are people who believe that infants are inconvenient in many situations, that’s why they kill them before birth.

It is never morally acceptable to say that a crying infant takes away from reverence. He may be a distraction and may impair our hearing, but he is not unwelcome in God’s house and takes nothing away from the sacred. If we say that the cy of a child takes away from the sacred, why stop there?

Fratrernally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
One of the oldest Catholic church buildings in our city (over 100 years old) has a cry room. It’s six small pews in the back of the nave, but separated from the nave by a window.

So I don’t think that cry rooms are an “innovation.” I think that even back then, a century ago, parents realized that there are times when babies need a more private place to be soothed by parents, and small children need a private place where their parents can do a little “church etiquette” training.

Taking babies and small children outside the church building in the middle of winter (or for that matter, in the middle of a summer like this one) is not very pleasant for parent or child.

The cry room enables the parents to still hear and participate in the Mass, yet do the duties of parenting.

There are some parents who are able to sooth a screaming baby or train a fussy toddler right in the nave, right in front of all their fellow parishioners and in front of the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. But there are other parents who get discombulated by their own crying, fussing children. Sure, the priest and other parishioners can tell them that the Lord was a baby once, or that crying babies are beautiful, etc. But for a lot of parents, that doesn’t really help them. No matter how many times someone tells them that it’s OK, they still can’t sit in public and do their parental work of soothing and calming.

So for these parents, a cry room is a great blessing.

I think Catholics should stop trying to tell other Catholics how to “do Mass.” There is nothing in the rubrics that says that a cry room is wrong. The Church has not made a ruling. So why criticize others who choose to use a cry room, and imply that they are “pro-contraception” or worse? That’s terrible! They are simply parents who don’t like hearing their babies scream and their small children fuss in front of other people and in front of the Lord. Stop trying to demonize their choice of parenting methods, and stop trying to demonize church planners who made a decision years ago to include a “cry room” in the architecture of the church building.

Just let Catholics live out their faith according the dictates of their heart, and trust that the Holy Spirit will do His work and convict them if they are going down the wrong path.
 
In our church the children go out at the start of mass to go to their own liturgy. There they have the same (simplified) readings as the adults and under supervision they usually draw something from the stories. They then re- enter the church ahead of the offertory procession and give the priest their artwork.
There is an optional room with large windows in to the church with sound from the church piped in.
We used to have special religious books aimed at the children and also toys which they could only have when they went to church. Generally they were as good as gold.
The books and toys helped.

Pete//
 
This story was related to me by a a friend of mine who was a DRE here in my diocese.

One Advent, they invited a well-known priest to give a parish retreat.
This priest was known for his forceful, yet deeply spiritual and loving preaching.
During the last night of the retreat a mother took stood up with her crying & fussy infant.
The priest stopped in mid sentence. My friend gasped, thinking an admonishment of some sort was coming.

And the priest said to the congregation-
“Do you hear that? These are the sames sounds our Lord & Savior made on a night long ago. Please don’t take that baby out of here, let us use his “joyful noise” as a special reminder that God loved us so much, he became like this little one for us.”

Needless to say, my friend said there was not a dry eye in the place!!
I get misty just thinking about the look on her face as she told me the story! 😛
Our priest has said similar. After reading this thread and some of the attitudes of the posters, I am soooo thankful that our church as no cry room and parents aren’t “forced” to leave the mass due to a crying child because they are a distraction or an inconvenience. Thank God there are crying babies and young families amongst my fellow parishoners.
 
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