The most intense debate between Catholic and Protestant:Mary the Mother of God

[FNDRB58]

Yes, if a Catholic Church does not abide by the infallible teaching of the Pope in council with his Bishops then that is correct, the church cannot be in communion with Rome. They are not a true Catholic Church. Jesus established one true Church. He told the Apostles, “Who hears you hears me.” So to be disobedient to the Pope and the Bishops, especially when they speak infallibly with regards to faith and morals then yes that is sinful. A church can’t make its own rules and priests can’t follow their own rules either. Every church is in sychronicity so to speak with every other church in the world. This ensures that the Church is of one faith…not many, which is why it has lasted thanks to the Holy Spirit for 2000 years.

Nicky,

In addition to my previous answer above which I added just after you posted, I would add this little ditty below from Jon Martignoni’s Christian Bible Society Newsletter…which by the way you can get free CDs from his website!!!

"Jesus says that he who is faithful in little things, can be trusted with much more (Mt 25:21; Lk 16:10). Scripture also tells us that Jesus is concerned with every iota and every dot of the law and that it’s not a good thing to relax even the least of the commandments (Mat 5:18-19). So, even though it may be a “little thing,” should we not strive to be faithful in all things?

 

[inkaneer]

Quote :

“You say you respect the Blessed Virgin Mary’s place in history, her life and contributions. I say you don’t. How could you when you refer to her as Mary and don’t even call her by what scripture says to call her?”

Who are you to judge the servant of another?

(Romans 14:4, BTW, that seems to be missing from your bible)

I am not judging you. I was only pointing out the discrepancy between your statement and your actions. As for Romans:14:4:

“Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand.”

Your judgement will not be by me but will be by Jesus and therefore I would recommend that you watch what you say about His mama. Those Jewish boys can get a little parochial about such matters.

 

[inkaneer]

In a Catholic Church in Des Moines, people WERE bowing to the statue of Mary, there was nothing else around and they went and stood right in front of the statue and bowed, so there are some who do this practice. And I am a Catholic saying this, not an “anti-Catholic” that you mention.

In the Catholic Church I have attended for over a year, there has not been a single sermon mentioning Mary, there are not people there early (visibly) praying the rosary, and the only time we sang about Mary was Ave Maria at Easter. She hasn’t been discussed as a central Christian figure as you put it and even during RCIA, Mary really wasn’t discussed at all. The most I hear about Mary is on this forum!
As a Protestant for over 47 years, I never heard that Jesus hated her, I never heard any of those things in Bible studies nor read them in any protestant books I read, and I read quite a few. Please stop throwing all protestants into the the same basket. As a previous poster stated “I’m tired, really tired of you Catholics (change of word) who go around spreading lies about protestants (again, switching the words).” It applies both ways.

In other words: PLAY NICE, EVEN IF THE OTHER GUY ISN’T

You know, people bow to the queen of England as a gesture of respect but no one accuses them of worshipping her now do they? And isn’t the Blessed Virgin Mary the Queen of Heaven? Now before all you protestants get all riled up about that and go off half cocked get out your bibles and and look up in the Old Testament who the queen was when David was king of Israel. Here is a clue, it was not his wife. It was his mother. Jesus is the last of the Davidic Kings. So bowing to an earthy queen is okay but the Queen of Heaven is different. If Catholics bow to a statue of The Blessed Virgin Mary I say that is great because it shows me that they still respect the Mother of God and if they do that then they will worship her Son.

There was another thread on these boards, still active I think, entitled "how to know if you are Catholic. Basically it was a top ten list like David Letterman used to do. One of the items on there was, “You know you are Catholic if upon entering a protestant church you sense an emptiness.” I have experienced that. There is nothing mysterious, nothing to hold in awe, You know Jesus is not there as He is in a Catholic Church. Even the protestants behave like it was nothing special. Catholicism is a demonstrative faith. We bless ourselves with Holy Water upon entering the church. We pray on our knees in an act of humility. We genuflect before sitting down and we do it on both knees when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed on the Altar. When the gospel is to be read we make three signs of the cross with our right thumbs on our forehead, our lips and our heart saying the prayer, “May the Word of God be on our minds, on our lips and in our heart.” We do these things with a purpose and with awe and respect for the faith. Protestants have nothing like that. Protestantism has been stripped, for the most part, of ritual. They sing songs, they listen to some preaching, they have coffeee or juice or a social. Protestantism is like kissing your grandmother instead of your lover. That is my view of it.

By the way another “How to know you are Catholic” is when asked to name your favorite Madonna song you reply “Hail Holy Queen”

 

[Ann1231]

You know, people bow to the queen of England as a gesture of respect but no one accuses them of worshipping her now do they? And isn’t the Blessed Virgin Mary the Queen of Heaven? Now before all you protestants get all riled up about that and go off half cocked get out your bibles and and look up in the Old Testament who the queen was when David was king of Israel.

I wasn’t passing judgement, I was simply replying to someone who said that Catholics don’t bow to the statue of Mary. No big deal…certainly not worthy of another “you protestant” accusations (of which I am Catholic btw)

you know, you really need to adjust the “you protestant, riled up, half cocked” attitude. it’s getting really old…THAT attitude is why a lot of protestants can’t stand catholics and don’t want to be a part of the church. YOU are no better than any protestant in this forum or anywhere else. You just happen to be a Catholic.

 

[Pitcharan]

I wasn’t passing judgement, I was simply replying to someone who said that Catholics don’t bow to the statue of Mary. No big deal…certainly not worthy of another “you protestant” accusations (of which I am Catholic btw)

you know, you really need to adjust the “you protestant, riled up, half cocked” attitude. it’s getting really old…THAT attitude is why a lot of protestants can’t stand catholics and don’t want to be a part of the church. YOU are no better than any protestant in this forum or anywhere else. You just happen to be a Catholic.

I have been practising an adjusted attitude for many years now and find it working beautifully. Now almost all my protestant friends are in awe of catholicism and I am sure when the time comes (God’s time) they will joyfully unite with us. I developed this adjusted attitude by chance (God’s will?) when I fell in love and got to married an Eastern Orthodox Christian in a Protestant church in 1985.

 

[FNDRB58]

Ann was not judging. All she said was that some bow down to statues. Now if she said we were going to hell for it then that is another matter. You didn’t say that did you Ann? jk
It is our job as informed and charitable Catholics to respond with an explanation of why Catholics engage in this practice. The answer has already been given. Should we not be confident enough in our faith to respond in a charitable manner and just explain what we believe as Catholics? Stepping on others sensitivities ends productive dialogue. There are many new Catholics and current Protestants who are on this site either to learn more about their faith or to learn about our faith. I love seeing Protestants on here because I love Christ’s Church so much and I want to share it and clear misconceptions about her. So often I get confronted by less than charitable people who attack me with one liners and won’t allow me to engage in a civil discourse. I like to think that here there can be a thoughtful dialogue with Protestants who I would expect would be sincere in their faith and respectful and that is what I have seen certainly within this thread. It takes a little humility to let some stuff go but if we all stick to explaining our reasons for our statements through the use of the bible and church teaching, then that is what will guide them home.

 

[Pitcharan]

Ann was not judging. All she said was that some bow down to statues. Now if she said we were going to hell for it then that is another matter. You didn’t say that did you Ann? jk
…

I knew that Ann was not judging. But I don’t know why you are telling this to me? Was this post meant for me or is it addressed to me by mistake?

 

[FNDRB58]

I knew that Ann was not judging. But I don’t know why you are telling this to me? Was this post meant for me or is it addressed to me by mistake?

I was responding to inkaneer who accused her of judging.

 

[Pitcharan]

I was responding to inkaneer who accused her of judging.

For responding to Inkaneer why quote Pitcharan?

 

[FNDRB58]

Post #164 does not show me quoting anybody. I am not sure what you are referring to. I should have quoted Inkaneer in that post which would have made it more clear. There are several conversations going on here. Sorry.

 

[Pitcharan]

Post #164 does not show me quoting anybody. I am not sure what you are referring to. I should have quoted Inkaneer in that post which would have made it more clear. There are several conversations going on here. Sorry.

You’re right. I realise that my confusion was a mistake and has no basis. I’m sorry.

 

[Axion]

I don’t know what others claim to have seen, but I’ve never seen Catholics bowing TO statues. I’ve seen Catholics PRAYING or bowing their heads in prayer in a chapel where a statue is present, and in a chapel where a statue ISN’T present. I’ve seen people bowing before the altar/blessed sacrament. I’m afraid this is one of the big “urban legends” of Catholicism.

Here is one of the most famous statues in the world.
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/26...0AEA24F8DE513071EC1862FBE0C240ACFB0318981C9EF

How many people are bowing to the statue?

Or check here: youtube.com/watch?v=h44YdbDJs8U

On Catholic Churches rarely mentioning Our Lady. Unfortunately there are a few where the pastor neglects her. If she is not given her proper place, that is an abuse. However to say she should be given her proper place is not to say she should be raised above Jesus - as some have implied.

 

[Pitcharan]

I don’t know what others claim to have seen, but I’ve never seen Catholics bowing TO statues. I’ve seen Catholics PRAYING or bowing their heads in prayer in a chapel where a statue is present, and in a chapel where a statue ISN’T present. I’ve seen people bowing before the altar/blessed sacrament. I’m afraid this is one of the big “urban legends” of Catholicism.

Here is one of the most famous statues in the world.
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/26...0AEA24F8DE513071EC1862FBE0C240ACFB0318981C9EF

How many people are bowing to the statue?

Or check here: youtube.com/watch?v=h44YdbDJs8U

On Catholic Churches rarely mentioning Our Lady. Unfortunately there are a few where the pastor neglects her. If she is not given her proper place, that is an abuse. However to say she should be given her proper place is not to say she should be raised above Jesus - as some have implied.

Accurately put. A small addition: catholics bow when the Body or Blood of Christ is elevated or exposed.

 

[FNDRB58]

Accurately put. A small addition: catholics bow when the Body or Blood of Christ is elevated or exposed.

We kneel when the Eucharist is elevated or exposed.
We bow before the altar and when the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the Creed.

Although in some churches in my diocese which might remain nameless…(San Jose, CA)…the priests keep everybody standing for everything…a travesty!

 

[inkaneer]

I wasn’t passing judgement, I was simply replying to someone who said that Catholics don’t bow to the statue of Mary. No big deal…certainly not worthy of another “you protestant” accusations (of which I am Catholic btw)

you know, you really need to adjust the “you protestant, riled up, half cocked” attitude. it’s getting really old…THAT attitude is why a lot of protestants can’t stand catholics and don’t want to be a part of the church. YOU are no better than any protestant in this forum or anywhere else. You just happen to be a Catholic.

Look, I believe in hitting someone with the truth and not soft pedaling it. I am no amateur to the arena ofapologetics and while I am aware that a defense of the faith must be done with love and compassion sometimes that compassion needs some force behind it. You put up a post that is namby pansy and no one will pay attention to it let alone remember it. You might as well push cooked spaghetti uphill. But if you provide something for them to remember it they will and while they may recoil initially from it they will come back and look at it anew.

BTW the “you protestant, riled up, half cocked” is not an attitude but an accurate assessment of protestant thinking that I have experience and which is evident on this board. If you don’t believe me look at the issues of:

1. the alleged brethren of Jesus,
2. Mother of God
3. Immaculate Conception
4. Co- Redemptrix
5. Assumption,
6. Papal Infallibility

Plus more. In every one of these protestants have been quick [riled up] to denounce the Catholic position without even trying to understand it [half cocked]. When was the last post you saw by a protestant saying something to the effect, “please explain _______” [you fill in the blank]?

 

[nickybr38]

Look, I believe in hitting someone with the truth and not soft pedaling it. I am no amateur to the arena ofapologetics and while I am aware that a defense of the faith must be done with love and compassion sometimes that compassion needs some force behind it. You put up a post that is namby pansy and no one will pay attention to it let alone remember it. You might as well push cooked spaghetti uphill. But if you provide something for them to remember it they will and while they may recoil initially from it they will come back and look at it anew.

BTW the “you protestant, riled up, half cocked” is not an attitude but an accurate assessment of protestant thinking that I have experience and which is evident on this board. If you don’t believe me look at the issues of:

1. the alleged brethren of Jesus,
2. Mother of God
3. Immaculate Conception
4. Co- Redemptrix
5. Assumption,
6. Papal Infallibility

Plus more. In every one of these protestants have been quick [riled up] to denounce the Catholic position without even trying to understand it [half cocked]. When was the last post you saw by a protestant saying something to the effect, “please explain _______” [you fill in the blank]?

Please explain how responding in kind helps anything? Why become the thing you hate?

 

[PLeeD]

Please explain why Luke traces Joseph’s lineage? Is Mary’s lineage similarly documented anywhere?
Please explain what recognition John the Baptist is given by the Catholic Church?

---

 

[Ann1231]

Look, I believe in hitting someone with the truth and not soft pedaling it. I am no amateur to the arena ofapologetics and while I am aware that a defense of the faith must be done with love and compassion sometimes that compassion needs some force behind it. You put up a post that is namby pansy and no one will pay attention to it let alone remember it. You might as well push cooked spaghetti uphill. But if you provide something for them to remember it they will and while they may recoil initially from it they will come back and look at it anew.

BTW the “you protestant, riled up, half cocked” is not an attitude but an accurate assessment of protestant thinking that I have experience and which is evident on this board. If you don’t believe me look at the issues of:

1. the alleged brethren of Jesus,
2. Mother of God
3. Immaculate Conception
4. Co- Redemptrix
5. Assumption,
6. Papal Infallibility

Plus more. In every one of these protestants have been quick [riled up] to denounce the Catholic position without even trying to understand it [half cocked]. When was the last post you saw by a protestant saying something to the effect, “please explain _______” [you fill in the blank]?

I have to disagree. It’s this attitude, and yes, it’s an attitude, that made me question the Catholic Church for many, many years before joining. If more people would have a gracious, mature, and kind attitude, then I would not have had such serious apprehensions about joining. You don’t have to be rude to make a point and by being rude, you ARE discouraging others from wanting to join the church. Who wants to worship with a bunch of rude, holier than thou people? That is NOT a proper representation of the Catholic Church, and yet that is what you are sending out.

 

[Ann1231]

Look, I believe in hitting someone with the truth and not soft pedaling it. I am no amateur to the arena ofapologetics and while I am aware that a defense of the faith must be done with love and compassion sometimes that compassion needs some force behind it. You put up a post that is namby pansy and no one will pay attention to it let alone remember it. You might as well push cooked spaghetti uphill. But if you provide something for them to remember it they will and while they may recoil initially from it they will come back and look at it anew.

BTW the “you protestant, riled up, half cocked” is not an attitude but an accurate assessment of protestant thinking that I have experience and which is evident on this board. If you don’t believe me look at the issues of:

1. the alleged brethren of Jesus,
2. Mother of God
3. Immaculate Conception
4. Co- Redemptrix
5. Assumption,
6. Papal Infallibility

Plus more. In every one of these protestants have been quick [riled up] to denounce the Catholic position without even trying to understand it [half cocked]. When was the last post you saw by a protestant saying something to the effect, “please explain _______” [you fill in the blank]?

and an afterthought…if it annoys you so much that you can’t respond in kindness, then why are you here and why are you on these threads? If you don’t like it, then don’t be here! Obviously there are many protestants here trying to learn. If you find their demeanor so irritating, why respond in kind and why respond or read here at all?

 

[inkaneer]

I was responding to inkaneer who accused her of judging.

When did I accuse Ann of judging? Look up posts 161 and 162. Show me where I accused Ann of judging. Ann accused me of judging her and Ann was wrong. Here are the posts in their entirety:

Post 161 by Inkaneer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann1231
"In a Catholic Church in Des Moines, people WERE bowing to the statue of Mary, there was nothing else around and they went and stood right in front of the statue and bowed, so there are some who do this practice. And I am a Catholic saying this, not an “anti-Catholic” that you mention.

In the Catholic Church I have attended for over a year, there has not been a single sermon mentioning Mary, there are not people there early (visibly) praying the rosary, and the only time we sang about Mary was Ave Maria at Easter. She hasn’t been discussed as a central Christian figure as you put it and even during RCIA, Mary really wasn’t discussed at all. The most I hear about Mary is on this forum!
As a Protestant for over 47 years, I never heard that Jesus hated her, I never heard any of those things in Bible studies nor read them in any protestant books I read, and I read quite a few. Please stop throwing all protestants into the the same basket. As a previous poster stated “I’m tired, really tired of you Catholics (change of word) who go around spreading lies about protestants (again, switching the words).” It applies both ways.

In other words: PLAY NICE, EVEN IF THE OTHER GUY ISN’T "

[inkaneer] You know, people bow to the queen of England as a gesture of respect but no one accuses them of worshipping her now do they? And isn’t the Blessed Virgin Mary the Queen of Heaven? Now before all you protestants get all riled up about that and go off half cocked get out your bibles and and look up in the Old Testament who the queen was when David was king of Israel. Here is a clue, it was not his wife. It was his mother. Jesus is the last of the Davidic Kings. So bowing to an earthy queen is okay but the Queen of Heaven is different. If Catholics bow to a statue of The Blessed Virgin Mary I say that is great because it shows me that they still respect the Mother of God and if they do that then they will worship her Son.

There was another thread on these boards, still active I think, entitled "how to know if you are Catholic. Basically it was a top ten list like David Letterman used to do. One of the items on there was, “You know you are Catholic if upon entering a protestant church you sense an emptiness.” I have experienced that. There is nothing mysterious, nothing to hold in awe, You know Jesus is not there as He is in a Catholic Church. Even the protestants behave like it was nothing special. Catholicism is a demonstrative faith. We bless ourselves with Holy Water upon entering the church. We pray on our knees in an act of humility. We genuflect before sitting down and we do it on both knees when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed on the Altar. When the gospel is to be read we make three signs of the cross with our right thumbs on our forehead, our lips and our heart saying the prayer, “May the Word of God be on our minds, on our lips and in our heart.” We do these things with a purpose and with awe and respect for the faith. Protestants have nothing like that. Protestantism has been stripped, for the most part, of ritual. They sing songs, they listen to some preaching, they have coffeee or juice or a social. Protestantism is like kissing your grandmother instead of your lover. That is my view of it.

By the way another “How to know you are Catholic” is when asked to name your favorite Madonna song you reply “Hail Holy Queen”

Post 162 by Ann

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
You know, people bow to the queen of England as a gesture of respect but no one accuses them of worshipping her now do they? And isn’t the Blessed Virgin Mary the Queen of Heaven? Now before all you protestants get all riled up about that and go off half cocked get out your bibles and and look up in the Old Testament who the queen was when David was king of Israel."

[Ann] I wasn’t passing judgement, I was simply replying to someone who said that Catholics don’t bow to the statue of Mary. No big deal…certainly not worthy of another “you protestant” accusations (of which I am Catholic btw)

you know, you really need to adjust the “you protestant, riled up, half cocked” attitude. it’s getting really old…THAT attitude is why a lot of protestants can’t stand catholics and don’t want to be a part of the church. YOU are no better than any protestant in this forum or anywhere else. You just happen to be a Catholic.

---

Notice I never accused Ann of judging nor did I say she was a protestant. I made a statement about the queen of England then asked a rhetorical question about the Queen of Heaven title of the Blessed Virgin Mary. I knew from experience that protestants would take issue about it so I used the OT reference to Davis and his queen. It was a preemptive strike at any false accusation from our ‘separated brethren’ . So Ann was doubly wrong in 1. accusing me of saying she was passing judgement and 2. me thinking or accusing her of being protestant.