The most intense debate between Catholic and Protestant:Mary the Mother of God

[inkaneer]

Regarding the Fr. Pacwa/Martin debates on Mary, one has to realize that these were produced by John Ankerberg who is a evangelical protestant minister. The debates were edited by the Ankerberg people to the final form seen on his TV show. The debates were brought up on a show on EWTN in the early 1980’s and Fr. Pacwa did mention that the debate was edited and that he would not participate in another such debate in which the final form was decided by one side. This I understood to mean that Fr. Pacwa did not have any say as to what got edited out and what did not. However, even with the editing, it was clear that Fr. Pacwa was all over Dr. Martin although I doubt if the typical protestant who tunes into Ankerberg would have realized it.

By the way, Dr. Walter Martin died in 1989 so these debates are quite dated and Ankerberg has not tried to have any new debates on the subject. He would rather attack legitimate targets like the Masons.

 

[1holycatholic]

The belief that Mary is Perpetually Virgin is hard for me to understand. In the Gospel of St. Matthew chapter 13:54-56 it says that Mary had other sons and daughters. So were they also immaculately conceived? This is what I don’t understand.

Some here in the forums have stated that Mary had no other children. How is that possible unless Joseph possibly had another wife, before or after Mary? Help me understand this, Please.

That passage does not say Mary had other sons and daughters. That’s what you are reading into the passage. The ante-Nicene Early Church Fathers were unanimous in declaring Mary’s perpetual virginity.

When the Catholic Church infallibly defined the Canon of Scripture roughly three hundred and fifty years after Christ the Church still declared Mary’s perpetual virginity. Why would the Church canonize a Catholic book (Gospel according to St. Matthew) that was contrary to the faith handed down by the apostles (of which St. Matthew is one.)?

Either your interpretation is wrong or you’re saying the Bible is in error.

 

[brojeff66]

I’d like to thank everyone for their replies. You all have given me much to think about and very good advice. I appreciate the help.

 

[FNDRB58]

The doctrine of Mary as the mother of God is not really important. Our faith is in Jesus.

I think where this thread took off was your statement above which you would expect would come under fire in a Catholic forum. One should never state a doctrine, especially as it relates to our Blessed Mother, “is not really important.”

But I think things are somewhat clarified now, however…

Though one may not believe this doctrine and still be saved, disobedience to the authority of the Church is a sin for a Catholic (ignorance and culpability withstanding) which is not something I would want to suffer for in purgatory. Some would say that a disbelief in or a callous belief in this doctrine would preclude one from truly calling himself Catholic.

But I won’t beat this dead horse any longer.

Has anyone seen the debate between Karl Keating and Iglesia Ni Christo? That was crazy. Check it out on YouTube. The opponent was not a very good listener.

 

[Pitcharan]

I wonder!

The doctrine of Mary as the mother of God is not really important. Our faith is in Jesus.
In the Council of Ephesus in 431 Mary was declared *theotokos *– God bearer.
As Wikipedia says
At issue really was who Jesus was, not who Mary was.

If it was not important, “who Mary was”, then why is God fulfilling Mary’s prophesy about herself:"All nations shall call me blessed"

The importance of David, a man after God’s own heart, is understood by every Jew.

The importance of Mary, who was God’s highly favoured one, about whom Elizabeth spontaneously proclaimed:"Who am I, that the mother of my Lord should come to see me?", is very well understood not only by catholics but also by those millions who have experienced her God gifted power.

 

[NoelFitz]

It is important who Mary was, but not as important as other beliefs Catholics hold.

 

[FNDRB58]

It is important who Mary was, but not as important as other beliefs Catholics hold.

I don’t mean to be argumentative or rake you through the coals, but I must continue this discussion with you:

Are you now retracting your statement that the doctrine of Mary, Mother of God, is “not really important?” Do you believe that it is in fact very important?

Pointing out the non-essentiality of a doctrine only precludes one from fully believing in it and applying it to one’s life. Usually, Protestants are the ones who do this to downplay the Catholic belief. In fact, the Protestants in the debate would have shared your sentiments more than Father Pacwa.

I have never heard a Catholic emphasize different “levels” of belief required for salvation which is what you are implying. Its just not something we do. Every doctrine is vitally important as our salvation is affected by every one. Yes, a Protestant may attain his heavenly reward but I wouldn’t want to spend time in Purgatory learning to love our Blessed Mother.

 

[ActuallyAquinas]

FNDR58,

Thanks for your reply.

Seeing Mary as the mother of God is important, but not too important. The essentials are that Jesus saved us and that we should love God and neighbor.

The Jewish Rabbi Hillel was asked to teach the whole of the law while standing on one foot. He said that we should love our neighbor as ourselves and that all else is commentary. Jesus expanded on this reminding us to love God and neighbor.

You say the doctrine of Mary as the mother of God is infallibly taught. Are you referring to the Council of Ephesus, where Mary was considered Theotokos? I believe Mary is the Mother of God, because her son was God. Jesus descended from many people. Not all of these lived excellent lives. The Immaculate Conception is a different doctrine from Mary being mother of God.

I believe in the Marian doctrines, but they are of less importance that other doctrines.

I would disagree with Jesus is the Church.

The Church is the people of God or the mystical body of Christ. Jesus is the head of the Church.

All doctrine about Mary is important. Mary is important only second to God. Without Mary at Jesus’ right side in the Kingdom of God, then the prophesy of Davidic Messianic kingship is not fulfilled.

 

[ActuallyAquinas]

FNDR58,

Thanks for your reply.

Seeing Mary as the mother of God is important, but not too important. The essentials are that Jesus saved us and that we should love God and neighbor.

The Jewish Rabbi Hillel was asked to teach the whole of the law while standing on one foot. He said that we should love our neighbor as ourselves and that all else is commentary. Jesus expanded on this reminding us to love God and neighbor.

You say the doctrine of Mary as the mother of God is infallibly taught. Are you referring to the Council of Ephesus, where Mary was considered Theotokos? I believe Mary is the Mother of God, because her son was God. Jesus descended from many people. Not all of these lived excellent lives. The Immaculate Conception is a different doctrine from Mary being mother of God.

I believe in the Marian doctrines, but they are of less importance that other doctrines.

I would disagree with Jesus is the Church.

The Church is the people of God or the mystical body of Christ. Jesus is the head of the Church.

The Following reasons are for why Mary has to be of immaculate conception.

1. Jesus and Mary are to be the New Adam and Eve, Adam and Eve were created without Sin, so as both Jesus and Mary are too needed to be born without sin.
2. The Jewish tradition of blessings and curses go through bloodline. If Jesus was to be of man, born of woman, then he would need to inherit his mother’s bloodline since she was the link to David. If Mary was sinful, Jesus would have been born in sin. If Mary was sinful and Jesus was born without sin because God blocked the sinful nature in which was in Mary’s blood, then Jesus would not be of man because of that of the nature of his conception. But because of no divine nature of Mary’s conception (two humans) then it would follow that if her conception was without sin she could pass the Davidic bloodline sans sin, to Jesus and fulfill prophesy.
3. Scripture says so, “I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.” Gen 3:15

 

[ActuallyAquinas]

The belief that Mary is Perpetually Virgin is hard for me to understand. In the Gospel of St. Matthew chapter 13:54-56 it says that Mary had other sons and daughters. So were they also immaculately conceived? This is what I don’t understand.

Those words, brothers and sisters, in Greek come to mean cousins, or close friends. The Apostles call us Brothers, but that does not mean we are blood related and we sure are not actual brothers to the Apostles.

Only Mary was Immaculately conceived.

Some here in the forums have stated that Mary had no other children. How is that possible unless Joseph possibly had another wife, before or after Mary? Help me understand this, Please.

Joseph had no other wife, he was a celibate and chaste husband of Our Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[inkaneer]

It is important who Mary was, but not as important as other beliefs Catholics hold.

I disagree. Not only is it important as to who the Blessed Virgin Mary was it is vitally important. Let us not lapse into the protestant mistake of over simplification by thinking that the Incarnation simply means “The Word made flesh.” It means more than that. It is God’s plan for redeeming man and The Blessed Virgin Mary plays a key vital role in that plan. She was prepared specifically by God for her role in the plan of Incarnation. The Church illuminates her vital role in the plan and by doing so gives glory to God.

 

[Pitcharan]

It is important who Mary was, but not as important as other beliefs Catholics hold.

Who defines the scale of importance on matters of faith? I doublt if even the Vatican ever said such things. I am afraid you are being misled. Watch and pray that you do not fall into delusion.

 

[beehumble]

Several issues are discussed here.

Catholics believe in the Bible and tradition.

Godsend said

I wonder!

The doctrine of Mary as the mother of God is not really important. Our faith is in Jesus.

In the Council of Ephesus in 431 Mary was declared *theotokos *– God bearer.

As Wikipedia says

At issue really was who Jesus was, not who Mary was.

Not so fast! There is something to fathom in that at the beginning of the Bible in Genesis, there is mention of the Woman. And at the end of the Bible, there again is mention of the Woman. And in John’s Gospel, Jesus defines that Woman as His mother Mary. If you contemplate this, you will realize that there is something special about Blessed Mary as relates to our salvation. Blessed Mary has a very significant role. And remember, Sr. Lucia asked why did the Act of Consecration of Russia have to be done to His mother, and He said because He wanted it that way, so the world would come to know and love and honor His mother.

 

[NHInsider]

I don’t mean to be argumentative or rake you through the coals, but I must continue this discussion with you:
I have never heard a Catholic emphasize different "levels" of belief required for salvation which is what you are implying. Its just not something we do. Every doctrine is vitally important as our salvation is affected by every one.

I don’t mean to be argumentative either, but you really should read Unitatis Redintegratio. The hierarchy of truths is Catholic doctrine.

 

[FNDRB58]

I don’t mean to be argumentative either, but you really should read Unitatis Redintegratio. The hierarchy of truths is Catholic doctrine.

That’s a lot of reading there. Can you summarize your point from this source or give me a paragraph for quick reference?

Thanks.

 

[FNDRB58]

Of course I do believe in the hierarchy of truths as stated in the Sacred Congregation of the Clergy:

In the message of salvation there is a certain hierarchy of truths, which the Church has always recognized when it composed creeds or summaries of the truths of faith. This hierarchy does not mean that some truths pertain to faith itself less than others but rather that some truths are based on others as of a higher priority and are illumined by them (General Catechetical Directory 43).

But to say “The doctrine of Mary, Mother of God, is not very important, belief in Jesus is,” is an incorrect statement.

And as a Catholic, one MUST believe in this doctrine if one is to truly be considered Catholic. There are many beliefs that are not in the creed for example that we must still believe if we are to be in full communion with the church.

When one says that something is “essential” implying that something else in non-essential, it diminishes the efficacy of that “non-essential” doctrine. Something, again, we Catholics should not do in my humble opinion. It confuses people and precludes them from believing as they should.

 

[NHInsider]

That’s a lot of reading there. Can you summarize your point from this source or give me a paragraph for quick reference?

Thanks.

Sure! Paragraph 11 would be most applicable to this discussion:

UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO 11. The way and method in which the Catholic faith is expressed should never become an obstacle to dialogue with our brethren. It is, of course, essential that the doctrine should be clearly presented in its entirety. Nothing is so foreign to the spirit of ecumenism as a false irenicism, in which the purity of Catholic doctrine suffers loss and its genuine and certain meaning is clouded.

At the same time, the Catholic faith must be explained more profoundly and precisely, in such a way and in such terms as our separated brethren can also really understand.

Moreover, in ecumenical dialogue, Catholic theologians standing fast by the teaching of the Church and investigating the divine mysteries with the separated brethren must proceed with love for the truth, with charity, and with humility. When comparing doctrines with one another, they should remember that in Catholic doctrine there exists a “hierarchy” of truths, since they vary in their relation to the fundamental Christian faith. Thus the way will be opened by which through fraternal rivalry all will be stirred to a deeper understanding and a clearer presentation of the unfathomable riches of Christ.

 

[FNDRB58]

Thank you. I admit to the existence of a hierarchy of truths. However, your paragraphs refer to ecumenism. I am in dialogue with a professed Catholic who stated that a Marian doctrine is “not very important”.

 

[NHInsider]

Thank you. I admit to the existence of a hierarchy of truths. However, your paragraphs refer to ecumenism. I am in dialogue with a professed Catholic who stated that a Marian doctrine is “not very important”.

But the context of the thread is Catholic v Protestant “debate” . . . .

 

[FNDRB58]

But the context of the thread is Catholic v Protestant “debate” . . . .

All of my posts have been a dialogue with NoelFitz who is a Catholic who feels that the doctrines of Mary are not very important because he doesn’t consider them to be essential. I have not responded to any Protestant within the thread, so I am confused as to the point you are trying to make with me.

Thanks