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FNDRB58
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Often times in olden days they used hyperbole to stress a point.
The most intense debate between Catholic and Protestant:Mary the Mother of God
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Ann1231
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and I think this is why there’s an issue in Protestants and Catholics discussing Mary. The things you listed here, most Prostestants easily accept! It’s when Catholics say that Mary is our salvation, that Mary is the one who gives graces, Mary answers prayers, that we should take all our concerns to Mary, that she is the one who will comfort and guide us, that Mary will defeat satan, that we can only get to Jesus thru Mary, and these are just the off the top of my head things that I was told by Catholics growing up. Maybe these are things that are commonplace for Catholics to believe but it’s not in any teaching of any Protestant church that I am aware of. Now, the communion of saints, no big deal, most protestants I know believe this one and yet Catholics always think they don’t…And as a Catholic that is something that is hard to understand. All we are saying is that we love her as Jesus did. We pray TO her asking her to pray FOR US. It is clear that we do not believe she is a god. We do not believe she can do anything without God. She is the Mother of our Savior. It is hard to understand why Protestants are so stubborn on this point. They don’t believe we can ask someone already in heaven to pray for us. I think that is the problem. If they believed one could solicit the help from those who already have seen the beatific vision of God then I don’t think asking Mary to go to her Son to help would be a stumbling block. Protestants ask humans to pray for them but not Mary or the saints or any who are in heaven. They just don’t accept the communion of saints…that, though some may have died in body, they are more alive than we are while in heaven! We are one family, one church, one body in Christ.
I think a lot of it is lack of proper communication and teaching. Catholics get so exasperated by Protestant questions and Protestants don’t know unless they ask! It’s kind of a vicious cycle that if all parties would calm down, come to the table with open minds, open hearts, and “goodwill towards all”, could easily be handled and understanding could prevail.
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FNDRB58
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I don’t think most Protestant denominations believe that we can pray to those in heaven which is basically what the communion of saints entails. They also believe that we use Mary as a mediator instead of Jesus only which again shows they don’t understand the communion of saints as Catholics do. I do agree that some of the hyperbole used by Catholics can be confusing.and I think this is why there’s an issue in Protestants and Catholics discussing Mary. The things you listed here, most Prostestants easily accept! It’s when Catholics say that Mary is our salvation, that Mary is the one who gives graces, Mary answers prayers, that we should take all our concerns to Mary, that she is the one who will comfort and guide us, that Mary will defeat satan, that we can only get to Jesus thru Mary, and these are just the off the top of my head things that I was told by Catholics growing up. Maybe these are things that are commonplace for Catholics to believe but it’s not in any teaching of any Protestant church that I am aware of. Now, the communion of saints, no big deal, most protestants I know believe this one and yet Catholics always think they don’t…
I think a lot of it is lack of proper communication and teaching. Catholics get so exasperated by Protestant questions and Protestants don’t know unless they ask! It’s kind of a vicious cycle that if all parties would calm down, come to the table with open minds, open hearts, and “goodwill towards all”, could easily be handled and understanding could prevail.
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nickybr38
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A hearty hear hear! to this response.and I think this is why there’s an issue in Protestants and Catholics discussing Mary. The things you listed here, most Prostestants easily accept! It’s when Catholics say that Mary is our salvation, that Mary is the one who gives graces, Mary answers prayers, that we should take all our concerns to Mary, that she is the one who will comfort and guide us, that Mary will defeat satan, that we can only get to Jesus thru Mary, and these are just the off the top of my head things that I was told by Catholics growing up. Maybe these are things that are commonplace for Catholics to believe but it’s not in any teaching of any Protestant church that I am aware of. Now, the communion of saints, no big deal, most protestants I know believe this one and yet Catholics always think they don’t…
I think a lot of it is lack of proper communication and teaching. Catholics get so exasperated by Protestant questions and Protestants don’t know unless they ask! It’s kind of a vicious cycle that if all parties would calm down, come to the table with open minds, open hearts, and “goodwill towards all”, could easily be handled and understanding could prevail.
It’s not honoring Mary that is the issue usually, it’s the extreme Marian devotees who cause problems. From the outside their extreme devotion looks alarmingly like worship.I don’t know what issue this particular debate took with Mary, but I do know Mary being the Mother of God is an easy enough idea to clear up and I can’t imagine what else they could have been debating.
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nickybr38
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Actually, and this is speaking only from personal experience, but I have known SO many Protestants who believed they were able to communicate with deceased loved ones (as in visits from beyond the grave during moments of trouble)… but asking Saints to pray for us? Now THAT’s terrible.
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FNDRB58
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Yeah, I think you spoke to some who really didn’t even know their own faith if they are communicating with the dead!Actually, and this is speaking only from personal experience, but I have known SO many Protestants who believed they were able to communicate with deceased loved ones (as in visits from beyond the grave during moments of trouble)… but asking Saints to pray for us? Now THAT’s terrible.
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Ann1231
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YES! Exactly! (and thank youA hearty hear hear! to this response.
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FNDRB58
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The problem is is that they don’t honor her…not really. They have no special days in honor of her. They recognize her as the mother of Jesus only and remember her at Christmas time to a small degree. They don’t even believe she is blessed among all women despite the bible phrase. They only think she is blessed like you and I are blessed…not blessED. Do they truly honor our Blessed Mother? I have seen no signs of it.YES! Exactly! (and thank you
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nickybr38
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Haha! I think my only experience with Christians has been with Christians who don’t know their faith. Let’s see… Catholics who routinely visited psychics, Protestants who believed they were communicating with their dead parents/children/beloved, Catholics who actively promoted fornicating, Protestant ministers who were adulterers… sigh It’s a wonder I remained a believer at all.Yeah, I think you spoke to some who really didn’t even know their own faith if they are communicating with the dead!
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nickybr38
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Absolutely not. Which is why it’s such a shock when they see extremist Marian devotion. It’s like… someone who has only ever seen white and then suddenly they’re in a room full of neon pink… wouldn’t it be better to introduce them to a paler shade of color first so as not to fully shock their system? You get what I mean?
But I’m speaking really generally here, we all are… this is just what I’ve seen in my experience online and offline.
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Ann1231
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ok, even prayers such as this:
Memorare (Prayer to Our Lady)
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession, was left unaided.
Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To you do I come, before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in your mercy, hear and answer me. Amen
which is perfectly lovely, to a Protestant would raise the question…umm… shouldn’t we be praying this to JESUS? Shouldn’t we be fleeing to Jesus’ protection, imploring His help, seeking His intercession, standing before Him sinful and sorrowful…? Isn’t that part of why God sent Jesus to the world, to have HIM here as our Comfort, our Protection, etc?
THESE are the types of things that are, while perfectly normal and “right” in Catholic eyes, seem questionable to Protestants who are raised and taught to take all their petitions to Jesus. It would be like asking a lifelong Catholic to please stop praying to Mother Mary. You would, naturally, say “why would I do that?” To a Protestant who’s told he/she should pray to Mary would say “why would I do that?”.
Memorare (Prayer to Our Lady)
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession, was left unaided.
Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To you do I come, before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in your mercy, hear and answer me. Amen
which is perfectly lovely, to a Protestant would raise the question…umm… shouldn’t we be praying this to JESUS? Shouldn’t we be fleeing to Jesus’ protection, imploring His help, seeking His intercession, standing before Him sinful and sorrowful…? Isn’t that part of why God sent Jesus to the world, to have HIM here as our Comfort, our Protection, etc?
THESE are the types of things that are, while perfectly normal and “right” in Catholic eyes, seem questionable to Protestants who are raised and taught to take all their petitions to Jesus. It would be like asking a lifelong Catholic to please stop praying to Mother Mary. You would, naturally, say “why would I do that?” To a Protestant who’s told he/she should pray to Mary would say “why would I do that?”.
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FNDRB58
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Again, they don’t believe in the communion of saints. If they did then this would be more readily understood. We can go to Jesus THROUGH others in heaven. They don’t believe this which is unfortunate.
If Mary was the only one we did pray to then Protestants have a point but of course that couldn’t be further from the truth.
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Ann1231
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no, this isn’t right at all. I’m a former Protestant (Baptist and then Lutheran when I married), and both honored Mary and both absolutely believe she was blessED. I don’t remember any special “days” but they didn’t do that for anything except major holidays!
I take it you are lifelong Catholic? I don’t know why Catholics feel like Protestants ignore Mary, we (as a former) certainly didn’t ignore her, but we didn’t have all these prayers to her or statues of her everywhere or all the doctrines about her. Both B and L faiths were much more simple: believe in Jesus as your Savior, believe what the Bible says, live your life according to the Bible, etc. There weren’t/aren’t all the church doctrines and “rules” if you will, that are in the Catholic faith.
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nickybr38
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This is where you and I differ.
I was raised Protestant and attended many, many demoninations. We were a roamin’ non-denominational Protestant family. Heh. And in most cases Mary was not really even recognized. The people I encountered only really ever thought of Mary during Christmas and then she was barely glimpsed at.I can’t say anyone honored her but I can’t say anyone hated her either. She was just another ‘character’ from the birth story and little more. I don’t know if that’s Protestant doctrine, but that was my Protestant experience.
And to FNDRB58:
It’s not just praying to Mary that bothers Protestants but many of the ideas Catholics share about her. As in, she is coredemptrix, you can ONLY get to Jesus THROUGH Mary… etc.
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FNDRB58
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Indeed I am a lifelong Catholic. I have seen no signs from my 43 years to indicate that they truly honor her. The only time I hear them talk about her is when they debate Catholics over our beliefs in her. I have only heard Protestants say she was a good woman. That’s hardly honor. They say that about Oprah!
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Ann1231
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I totally respect our differences. Just as each Catholic will have a different personal experience based on their diocese, their personal path, their parish, etc, each Protestant will have a different experience as well. I’m just tired of all protestants being lumped into a big “they don’t believe”…(fill in the blank) scenerio when that couldn’t be further from the truth; just as not all Catholics pray the Rosary, pray to saints, etc. but from the protestant viewpoint, it seems it!This is where you and I differ.
I can’t say anyone honored her but I can’t say anyone hated her either. She was just another ‘character’ from the birth story and little more. I don’t know if that’s Protestant doctrine, but that was my Protestant experience.
And to FNDRB58:
It’s not just praying to Mary that bothers Protestants but many of the ideas Catholics share about her. As in, she is coredemptrix, you can ONLY get to Jesus THROUGH Mary… etc.
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Ann1231
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well, now you can say you’ve discussed this with a ‘former’ protestant who was raised in a Baptist church to honor Mary and know that she was blessEDIndeed I am a lifelong Catholic. I have seen no signs from my 43 years to indicate that they truly honor her. The only time I hear them talk about her is when they debate Catholics over our beliefs in her. I have only heard Protestants say she was a good woman. That’s hardly honor. They say that about Oprah!
…and for what it’s worth…I’m not an Oprah fan
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FNDRB58
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Coredemptrix is a theological term which I understand would need to be explained to a Protestant for them to understand it. As far as the ONLY and THROUGH argument…that is categorically incorrect Catholic teaching and whoever told her that should be flogged.
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FNDRB58
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My contention is that honoring someone involves an outword display of honor not just believing she is good or that she is blessED. When you were a Baptist, what did you do to honor Mary?well, now you can say you’ve discussed this with a ‘former’ protestant who was raised in a Baptist church to honor Mary and know that she was blessED
…and for what it’s worth…I’m not an Oprah fan
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nickybr38
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The one thing I have learned since beginning this journey is that the Catholic Church is like every single Protestant denomination pushed into one building/faith. Heh. I don’t mean that in an offenseive manner! I just mean the Catholic Church is as varied as the many Protestant churches, the only difference is the many different Catholic parishes all answer to the same Pope whereas the different Protestant denominations do not attempt to be in unity despite their differences (usually).
But I’m wandering off topic so I’ll just retreat now.
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