The most intense debate between Catholic and Protestant:Mary the Mother of God

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Coredemptrix is a theological term which I understand would need to be explained to a Protestant for them to understand it. As far as the ONLY and THROUGH argument…that is categorically incorrect Catholic teaching and whoever told her that should be flogged. :rolleyes:
co-redemptrix just means Mary was “WITH” (co-) our Redeemer, She was with/cooperated with Him. Just as she is co-mediatrix: she was/or cooperated with our Mediator. This is how our Bishop and Priest explained it. pretty simple.

I was also told that we could only get to Jesus thru Mary, by several Catholics, some on here 😦
 
The one thing I have learned since beginning this journey is that the Catholic Church is like every single Protestant denomination pushed into one building/faith. Heh. I don’t mean that in an offenseive manner! I just mean the Catholic Church is as varied as the many Protestant churches, the only difference is the many different Catholic parishes all answer to the same Pope whereas the different Protestant denominations do not attempt to be in unity despite their differences (usually).

But I’m wandering off topic so I’ll just retreat now. 🙂
I completely disagree. Every Catholic Church in the world reads the same readings and shares the same doctrines…its not just about the Pope. I am surprised to hear you say that. One of the similarities between Catholics and Protestants is that there are parishioners/congregants who vary in their levels of belief which is unavoidable.
 
co-redemptrix just means Mary was “WITH” (co-) our Redeemer, She was with/cooperated with Him. Just as she is co-mediatrix: she was/or cooperated with our Mediator. This is how our Bishop and Priest explained it. pretty simple.

I was also told that we could only get to Jesus thru Mary, by several Catholics, some on here 😦
We even get several “levels” of Catholics on this site (referring to the misinformed persons who told you that).
 
**
**The most intense debate between Catholic and Protestant:Mary the Mother of God. **

It seems the debate has intensified exponentially since huge numbers of Protestants now fully accept divorce, contraception, abortion, homosexual marriage, embryonic stem cell research, etc.,etc.

I wonder why?
 
I completely disagree. Every Catholic Church in the world reads the same readings and shares the same doctrines…its not just about the Pope. I am surprised to hear you say that. One of the similarities between Catholics and Protestants is that there are parishioners/congregants who vary in their levels of belief which is unavoidable.
Sorry, I think I didn’t explain my thought properly there because that’s not what I meant. I just meant the variety of PEOPLE is as varied as the Protestant churches. The charismatics remind me of the Pentecostals. The Tradionalists remind me of Fundmentals. Etc. etc.
 
I completely disagree. Every Catholic Church in the world reads the same readings and shares the same doctrines…its not just about the Pope. I am surprised to hear you say that. One of the similarities between Catholics and Protestants is that there are parishioners/congregants who vary in their levels of belief which is unavoidable.
Every Catholic Church shares the same doctrine, but they don’t all share the same schedule of readings. The Eastern Catholic Churches don’t follow the same schedule of readings as the Latin Church.
 
My contention is that honoring someone involves an outword display of honor not just believing she is good or that she is blessED. When you were a Baptist, what did you do to honor Mary?
fair enough. One thing though is that Baptists, in general, don’t go around displaying ANYTHING! It’s not that we don’t honor or worship, but you will not find statues, necklaces, beads, stores dedicated to Baptists, tons of books, tv channels, (you get the idea). Did we thank God for her? Yes. Did we believe she was blessed among women? Yes. Did we have her on our stained glass windows? Yes 🙂 Did we believe she is the Mother of God? Yes. If you are looking at some big visible “honoring” symbol of anything, you probably won’t find it in a Baptist church. It doesn’t mean the heart isn’t there, there just isn’t a big showing.

Like I said earlier, we accepted Jesus as our Savior, believed all He said, believed the Bible, lived by the Ten Commandments, etc.
 
FNDRB58,

Thank you for your most recent post.

You hit the nail on the head when you note that Protestants do not accept the* Communion of Saints.*

Nowadays one would not expect leniency in a court if one approached the judge’s mother to try to avoid being found guilty.
 
Really? Baptists I know find this belief, well, unbelievable.
yep, I even talked with some extended family to see if this was still true (they’re still Baptists) and they said “of course!”

also, as far as the communion of saints, that was also a ‘yes’. So, that hasn’t changed either and my extended family attend Baptist churches in Kansas and Virginia so it’s not just one church teaching it. As I said earlier, not all protestants should be lumped into what Catholics believe they are, just as Catholics should not be lumped into what Protestants think THEY are.
 
oh, and a follow-up, the Lutheran church I attended here the last few years very much taught “the communion of saints”. My sil’s father was a Lutheran minister and he discussed this issue many times so I know that, at least in church in Germany where he originally was, and then in the USA midwest where he ministered, this was true.
 
How can Mat 12:46-48 be interpreted to mean something other than sons of the same parent(s) as Jesus?

While it’s clear that the word in question can have meanings similar to the way we use the word ‘brother’, there are several other places in Matthew where the same word is used to mean sons of the same parents. For example, Mat 4:18, 4:21, 10:2, and 10:21 all use the word in this sense.

I find the convenient interpretation of that word to be unconvincing given the context of the passages, and the certainty with which that interpretation is presented to be troubling.
WOW, how many times do I have to answer this one??? Okay here it goes. This position is based on a strict interpretation of the Greek word adelphos as meaning a sibling born of the same parents or just one parent of another child. Now the word is used in this way as pointed out [Mat 4:18, 4:21, 10:2, and 10:21] but no one denies that adelphos can mean a sibling or son of the same parents. The question is in scripture does adelphos **ALWAYS ** mean a son of the same parent? Because if it does not then we cannot force the strict meaning of sibling onto it every time. The answer to the question is that, in scripture, adelphos is used to denote other relationships other than a son of the same parent. Let’s take a look.

In Galatians 1:19 Paul writesthat while he was in Jerusalem visiting with Peter:

“But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.” [Ga 1:19]

The word translated as brother is the Greek adelphos but there is something else there. The verse states the James that Paul saw was an Apostle. Now there were only two apostles named James were either of them the son of Joseph and Mary? Let’s see shall we. In Mt 10:2-3 Matthew tells us about the Apostles. What does he say of the two James? In Mt 10 :2 we learn about one of them:

“The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb’edee, and John his brother;” [Mt 10:2]

Obviously this is not the sibling of Jesus because his father is Zebedee. In fact this is one of the brothers that Jesus called the “sons of thunder”. So it must be the other Apostle James who is Jesus sibling brother, right? Let’s see. Mt 10:3 tells us:

"3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. " [Mt 10:3]

OOPS!!! This James is the son of some guy named Alphaeus. Who was Mary married to, Alphaeus or Joseph??? Obviously Paul is using the word adelphos to denote a relationship other than a son of the same parent. The verses you quoted come from the gospel of Matthew. So does Matthew use adelphos only to denote a sibling relationship? Let’s see. In Matthew 23:8 Jesus says to the Apostles:

“But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.”

There the word brethren is the Greek adelphos but obviously all the Apostles did not come from the same family sohow could they be siblings? They can’t. Again in Mt 28:10 Jesus calls all of the Apostles his brothers:

"Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.” [Mt 28:10]

Again the word brethern is the translation of the Greek adelphos but were all the Apostles Jesus’ siblings? Of course not. We see the same use of the Greek *adelphos * in Luke 22:32 as well as John 20:17 and John 21:23. So obviously adelphos was not restricted to mean a sibling brother and to do so is terrible exogesis.

But let’s not stop there because there is more evidence to consider. First, name one person, other than Jesus, that scripture calls a child of Mary. Can you? No, because only Jesus is called Mary’s child. Second, on the cross Jesus entrusts Mary to the care of the youngest Apostle, John. Why entrust His mother to someone outside the family if he had all these otjher siblings? Third, care of the parents was the obligation of the youngest child. Why is Jesus doing this if He is Mary’s first born and thus the oldest of this alleged family of siblings? It does not make sense except if Jesus is both the oldest as well as the youngest which He would be if He was an only child. And notice He entrust Mary to the youngest of his “brethren” as He called his Apostles in Mt 28:10.

And I’ll end with this last point to ponder. The early church was quite boastful of their pedigree. We see evidence of this in the scriptures in the epistle of Jude who claims to be the brother of James [Jude 1:1]. Later cities would boast that they have the body of this Apostle or that Apostle and later still the boast would be the bodies of the saints. We do something similar hby claiming “We are No.1” when our favorite sports team wins the championship. But there are three boasts that are never found at anytime in the early church or down to the present day. They are:
  1. No city claims to have the body of Jesus Christ.
  2. No city claims to have the body of the Blessed Virgin Mary and
  3. No one has ever claimed to be the brother of Jesus.
That last one is the 800 pound gorilla in the room that no one wants to talk about let alone acknowledge.
 
WOW, how many times do I have to answer this one??? Okay here it goes. This position is based on a strict interpretation of the Greek word adelphos as meaning a sibling born of the same parents or just one parent of another child. Now the word is used in this way as pointed out [Mat 4:18, 4:21, 10:2, and 10:21] but no one denies that adelphos can mean a sibling or son of the same parents. The question is in scripture does adelphos **ALWAYS ** mean a son of the same parent? Because if it does not then we cannot force the strict meaning of sibling onto it every time. The answer to the question is that, in scripture, adelphos is used to denote other relationships other than a son of the same parent. Let’s take a look.

In Galatians 1:19 Paul writesthat while he was in Jerusalem visiting with Peter:

“But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.” [Ga 1:19]

The word translated as brother is the Greek adelphos but there is something else there. The verse states the James that Paul saw was an Apostle. Now there were only two apostles named James were either of them the son of Joseph and Mary? Let’s see shall we. In Mt 10:2-3 Matthew tells us about the Apostles. What does he say of the two James? In Mt 10 :2 we learn about one of them:

“The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb’edee, and John his brother;” [Mt 10:2]

Obviously this is not the sibling of Jesus because his father is Zebedee. In fact this is one of the brothers that Jesus called the “sons of thunder”. So it must be the other Apostle James who is Jesus sibling brother, right? Let’s see. Mt 10:3 tells us:

"3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. " [Mt 10:3]

OOPS!!! This James is the son of some guy named Alphaeus. Who was Mary married to, Alphaeus or Joseph??? Obviously Paul is using the word adelphos to denote a relationship other than a son of the same parent. The verses you quoted come from the gospel of Matthew. So does Matthew use adelphos only to denote a sibling relationship? Let’s see. In Matthew 23:8 Jesus says to the Apostles:

“But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.”

There the word brethren is the Greek adelphos but obviously all the Apostles did not come from the same family sohow could they be siblings? They can’t. Again in Mt 28:10 Jesus calls all of the Apostles his brothers:

"Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.” [Mt 28:10]

Again the word brethern is the translation of the Greek adelphos but were all the Apostles Jesus’ siblings? Of course not. We see the same use of the Greek *adelphos * in Luke 22:32 as well as John 20:17 and John 21:23. So obviously adelphos was not restricted to mean a sibling brother and to do so is terrible exogesis.

But let’s not stop there because there is more evidence to consider. First, name one person, other than Jesus, that scripture calls a child of Mary. Can you? No, because only Jesus is called Mary’s child. Second, on the cross Jesus entrusts Mary to the care of the youngest Apostle, John. Why entrust His mother to someone outside the family if he had all these otjher siblings? Third, care of the parents was the obligation of the youngest child. Why is Jesus doing this if He is Mary’s first born and thus the oldest of this alleged family of siblings? It does not make sense except if Jesus is both the oldest as well as the youngest which He would be if He was an only child. And notice He entrust Mary to the youngest of his “brethren” as He called his Apostles in Mt 28:10.

And I’ll end with this last point to ponder. The early church was quite boastful of their pedigree. We see evidence of this in the scriptures in the epistle of Jude who claims to be the brother of James [Jude 1:1]. Later cities would boast that they have the body of this Apostle or that Apostle and later still the boast would be the bodies of the saints. We do something similar hby claiming “We are No.1” when our favorite sports team wins the championship. But there are three boasts that are never found at anytime in the early church or down to the present day. They are:
  1. No city claims to have the body of Jesus Christ.
  2. No city claims to have the body of the Blessed Virgin Mary and
  3. No one has ever claimed to be the brother of Jesus.
That last one is the 800 pound gorilla in the room that no one wants to talk about let alone acknowledge.
Let’s ask a more fundamental question: Why would the Catholic Church infallibly establish a Canon of Scripture containing anything contrary to the faith handed down in Scared Tradition from the Apostles?
 
I love your thinking and get the same feeling,trying to show The Scriptures prove Jesus was born on the night of September 29,2 B.C.

Four countries claim Mary’s remains:Greece,France,England and Ireland.

Love your scholarship…keep up the good work. I’ve bookmarked it.
 
I love your thinking and get the same feeling,trying to show The Scriptures prove Jesus was born on the night of September 29,2 B.C.

Four countries claim Mary’s remains:Greece,France,England and Ireland.

Love your scholarship…keep up the good work. I’ve bookmarked it.
You have evidentiary proof that each of these countries make this claim? Look, there are all kind of crackpots running around making claims but when I say no city claimed to have the body of Mary I am not talking about some crackpot claim. Any claim would need evidentiary proof in order to be taken seriously. The best that can be said of Mary was that she died and was buried but her body was translated to heaven and that is from an old Orthodox teaching called the Dormition of Mary.

As for Jesus being born on Sept 29th there was a thread on these boards regarding the very issue of when Jesus was born and from my recollection September 29th was not it.
 
yep, I even talked with some extended family to see if this was still true (they’re still Baptists) and they said “of course!”

also, as far as the communion of saints, that was also a ‘yes’. So, that hasn’t changed either and my extended family attend Baptist churches in Kansas and Virginia so it’s not just one church teaching it. As I said earlier, not all protestants should be lumped into what Catholics believe they are, just as Catholics should not be lumped into what Protestants think THEY are.
I think that the only way to tell what Baptists really believe is by identifying “which” Baptists one is talking about. I know of Baptists who are more like Lutherans who “tolerate” the belief of Mary Mother of God, and I also know of Baptists who are more like Pentecostals and Adventists (who show contempt and react furiously at any mention of Mother of God).
And that is to be expected since they don’t have a central teaching authority.

placido
 
WOW, how many times do I have to answer this one?
I imagine as long as protestants continue to find and join this forum 🙂

Thanks for the response. Based on a casual reading it’s easy to assume (as I always have) that Jesus did have siblings born of Mary. It now certainly seems like a reasonable interpretation to say that Jesus was the only child of Mary. It opens my eyes to the possibility that there is more to Mary than I previously thought.

It still seems inefficient to take prayers to anyone other than God in the name of our Christ our Savior. What can Mary do that Jesus can’t or won’t?
 
after viewing it, I think Martin won. But, like everyone else that is my personal opinion.
 
It still seems inefficient to take prayers to anyone other than God in the name of our Christ our Savior. What can Mary do that Jesus can’t or won’t?
I think that’s the question right there. I hear a lot of people say “don’t you ask for people to pray for you…that’s what you do with the saints” but I don’t generally ask people to pray for me. I pray for myself! It has nothing to do with not believing in the communion of saints, to me that means we all worship God and “commune” together, not that I have to ask them to pray for me.
 
I imagine as long as protestants continue to find and join this forum 🙂
Thanks for the response. Based on a casual reading it’s easy to assume (as I always have) that Jesus did have siblings born of Mary.
That was a very unreasonable but common assumption.
It now certainly seems like a reasonable interpretation to say that Jesus was the only child of Mary. It opens my eyes to the possibility that there is more to Mary than I previously thought.
Praise the Lord!
It still seems inefficient to take prayers to anyone other than God in the name of our Christ our Savior.
First make sure you know the difference between “prayer” and “worship”. Only God is to be worshipped, but never forget that taking prayers to fellow believers like your pastor, family members, Blessed Mary, angels and saints, etc, because “the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much” (James 5:16).
What can Mary do that Jesus can’t or won’t?
Mary can do nothing that Jesus can’t do, but she can pray for you more than your pastor.

placido
 
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