The most intense debate between Catholic and Protestant:Mary the Mother of God

[PLeeD]

The alternative, then, is this obscenity of thousands and thousands of Christian denominations…

You call it obscenity. I call it freedom in Christ. Freedom to be released from a man-made system of laws.

Read Romans 14. Paul was talking about some big issues there. Not only whether we needed to follow the dietary laws required by the old convenant, but also whether we need to observe the sabbath. If Paul can allow for diversity in practice and belief regarding the Law of Moses, and on one of the 10 commandments, then I’m more than comfortable with the diversity found among the various Christian denominations.

If you buy that the crew running the CC are wiser and somehow more able to discern the will of the Holy Spirit than non-catholic Christians, then more power to you. You can make all the funny icon faces you want to. It won’t convince me to believe it’s true. There is plenty of good reason to believe exactly the opposite.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRmerger
The alternative, then, is this obscenity of thousands and thousands of Christian denominations…

You call it obscenity. I call it freedom in Christ. Freedom to be released from a man-made system of laws.

Read Romans 14. Paul was talking about some big issues there. Not only whether we needed to follow the dietary laws required by the old convenant, but also whether we need to observe the sabbath. If Paul can allow for diversity in practice and belief regarding the Law of Moses, and on one of the 10 commandments, then I’m more than comfortable with the diversity found among the various Christian denominations.

How about the freedom to be released from the will of God? Jesus prayed that His followers would be one as He was one with the Father. How can you call the thousands of protestant sects “freedom in Christ”??? Can you possibly see that is so illogical that it is down right laughable?

And as far as Paul in Romans 14 is concerned it is one thing to say that the Old Covenant is no more but quite another to say that there should be diversity in the New Covenant, not when Jesus is praying for His followers would be one. One does not constitute a diverity but a unity.

If you buy that the crew running the CC are wiser and somehow more able to discern the will of the Holy Spirit than non-catholic Christians, then more power to you. You can make all the funny icon faces you want to. It won’t convince me to believe it’s true. There is plenty of good reason to believe exactly the opposite.

Well, from what I have seen from protestantism, especially the newer forms of pentecostal, evangelical, fundamental protestantism, I would indeed say “…the crew running the CC are wiser and somehow more able to discern the will of the Holy Spirit than non-catholic Christians,” The Catholic Church is the only institution present today that was also present 2,000 years ago. Protestantism is, at most, 500 years old. Protestantism was not established by Christ but by men. Protestantism did not receive the promises of Christ to forgive sin, to bind and to loose, etc. The Catholic Church did. In the 500 years since protestantism came into existence it has fractured into thousands of denominations each with different if not contradictory doctrines. Baptism is a prime example of contradictory doctrines in protestantism. And where did protestantism get the idea that they had the freedom to contradict the will of God for His followers to be one? Certainly not from scripture. You say you are not convinced but I discern that you do not want to believe it is true. Have no fear, no one was ever dragged into heaven against their will kicking and screaming the whole way and no one here will attempt to drag you either. All we can do is point out how illogical protestantism is. People motivated by a sincere search for truth will see it. But I don’t discern that you are such a person.

 

[PLeeD]

Baptism is a prime example of contradictory doctrines in protestantism.

You paint with an overly broad brush. It’s quite repulsive.

My church baptizes according to what the bible teaches, exactly as the CC does. We don’t do it because the CC does it, we do it because it’s what Jesus and the apostles taught. Most other practices and beliefs between the CC and my church are very similar as well.

People motivated by a sincere search for truth will see it. But I don’t discern that you are such a person.

Oh, so all non-Catholics are deceived? Luckily, none of us are going to stand before you to be judged.

By all I’ve read and understand about what the CC actually teaches, I am a fellow member along with you in the body of Christ. Guess that’s not good enough for you. You need to get off your high-horse and try behaving more like Jesus teaches us.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PLeeD,

Let me tell you immediately that everything Inkaneer said is accurate. I want to address the first item in your response because it clearly identifies the direction you are going - and, in my opinion, this is not the way to go.

You call it obscenity. I call it freedom in Christ. Freedom to be released from a man-made system of laws.

Here is our first issue. This is analogous to say you are ‘free’ to sin or not - and that is just not the case.

All of Romans 6 is very instructive, but let me specifically address the ending of this chapter **Rom 6:20-21

20
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.
21
But what profit did you get then from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death**.

Let’s look at what Peter says about the abuse of freedom in **1Peter 2 15-17

15
For it is the will of God that by doing good you may silence the ignorance of foolish people.
16
Be free, yet without using freedom as a pretext for evil, but as slaves of God.
17
Give honor to all, love the community, fear God, honor the king. **

Now, I know you may not see it this way - but to deviate from the commands of God is to sin. To deviate from Christ’s Commands is to invite chaos - not freedom - into one’s life. If you are wondering how this fits… let me tell you:

Christ told us that we must be baptized to be saved - yet, this is denied
Christ told us He was founding His Church on Peter - yet, this is denied
Christ told us that in the beginning it was one man and one woman for marriage - yet, this is denied.
Christ told us He would give us His Flesh and Blood to eat - yet, this is denied
Chrsit told us that we were to eat His Flesh and Blood if we are to live in Him - yet, this is denied
Christ delegated the power of God to forgive sin to men - yet, this is denied

There are 20,000+ groups all claiming to be Christian but all have denied what Chrsit has commanded. This is nothing but chaos - some say this, and some say that and still others deny everything but expect to say, “Lord, lord…” when they are judged.

You stake your claim on being released from man-made laws - but, everything I have given you are directly from Christ. And, before you get too far away, go on to Matthew 16 where Christ gave Peter the power to bind and lose both on earth and in heaven - God is standing behind the human leader of His Church. Yet, this too is denied. Now, look at the result: chaos.

What type of math system do you think we would have if there were 20,000+ variations on the number system? Chaos.

What type of language system do you think we would have if thre were 20,000+ variations on how to spell words? Chaos.

What type of science system do you think we would have if there were 20,000+ variatios of the definitions of terms? Chaos.

20,000+ different ways of doing something is not freedom - it is total abandon to whim.

God bless

 

[1holycatholic]

You paint with an overly broad brush. It’s quite repulsive.

My church baptizes according to what the bible teaches, exactly as the CC does. We don’t do it because the CC does it, we do it because it’s what Jesus and the apostles taught. Most other practices and beliefs between the CC and my church are very similar as well.

Your “church” is not properly called a church. If you had ever bothered to read and understand what the Catholic Church teaches you wouldn’t keep repeating this statement. Christ established the Catholic Church - the pillar and foundation of truth. He did not establish tens of thousands of individual denominations all teaching different truths from a Catholic book. There are not tens of thousands of truths. If your denomination were true then every other denomination would necessarily be false as a result of their divergence from your denomination’s teachings. Further, your own denomination would be false if it changed it’s teachings over time. Your denomination doesn’t agree with other denominations and your denomination has changed it’s teaching over time. Where does that leave you?

Oh, so all non-Catholics are deceived? Luckily, none of us are going to stand before you to be judged.

By all I’ve read and understand about what the CC actually teaches, I am a fellow member along with you in the body of Christ. Guess that’s not good enough for you. You need to get off your high-horse and try behaving more like Jesus teaches us.

Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation - just as Christ teaches.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Baptism is a prime example of contradictory doctrines in protestantism.

You paint with an overly broad brush. It’s quite repulsive.

My church baptizes according to what the bible teaches, exactly as the CC does. We don’t do it because the CC does it, we do it because it’s what Jesus and the apostles taught. Most other practices and beliefs between the CC and my church are very similar as well.

Obviously you either are unaware of the contradictions in baptism doctrines amongst the sola scripturist denominations or you are aware but choose to ignore them. But let’s list a few and you can research these yourself just in case my word isn’t good enough for you. All of these doctrines are the product of sola scriptura and man’s interpretation of scripture. Some sola scripturists say infants are to be baptized. Other sola scripturists say baptism is for adult believer’s only. Some say Baptism is a sacrament. Others say an ordnance while others say it is unnecessary. Some say Baptism saves, others say it doesn’t do anything but get you wet.

Now what’s repulsive here? Is it I or is it this chaotic devil’s brew of contradictory doctrines? Why can’t sola scriptura produce unity in protestant denominations? Did not Jesus pray that His followers be one as He was one with the Father? Where do you see this unity that Jesus prayed for in protestantism? Because, I don’t see unity; I see chaos. And is God the father of Chaos? If not, WHO is?

Your denomination, as most sola scriptura denominations, accept and understand the doctrine of the Trinity that came from the Catholic Church. It did not come from scripture. Nowhere in scripture is the Trinity defined. The Catholic Church defined the Trinity using Greek philosophical terms not found at all in the Bible. Yet there are some sola scripturists [The Unitarians] who insist on denying the Trinity and use sola scriptura to do it. Who is correct, them or you? And how do you prove it? Just imagine what chaos would there be in protestantism if the Catholic Church did not define the doctrine of the Trinity before there were protestants.

Then imagine the chaos if we did not give you the scriptures. Sola scriptura = chaos. There is an old Jewish saying that whenever there are two Jews who disagree there are three opinions. But as a result of sola scriptura whenever there are three sola scripturists who disagree there is a new denomination.

 

[nickybr38]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Baptism is a prime example of contradictory doctrines in protestantism.

Obviously you either are unaware of the contradictions in baptism doctrines amongst the sola scripturist denominations or you are aware but choose to ignore them. But let’s list a few and you can research these yourself just in case my word isn’t good enough for you. All of these doctrines are the product of sola scriptura and man’s interpretation of scripture. Some sola scripturists say infants are to be baptized. Other sola scripturists say baptism is for adult believer’s only. Some say Baptism is a sacrament. Others say an ordnance while others say it is unnecessary. Some say Baptism saves, others say it doesn’t do anything but get you wet.

Now what’s repulsive here? Is it I or is it this chaotic devil’s brew of contradictory doctrines? Why can’t sola scriptura produce unity in protestant denominations? Did not Jesus pray that His followers be one as He was one with the Father? Where do you see this unity that Jesus prayed for in protestantism? Because, I don’t see unity; I see chaos. And is God the father of Chaos? If not, WHO is?

Your denomination, as most sola scriptura denominations, accept and understand the doctrine of the Trinity that came from the Catholic Church. It did not come from scripture. Nowhere in scripture is the Trinity defined. The Catholic Church defined the Trinity using Greek philosophical terms not found at all in the Bible. Yet there are some sola scripturists [The Unitarians] who insist on denying the Trinity and use sola scriptura to do it. Who is correct, them or you? And how do you prove it? Just imagine what chaos would there be in protestantism if the Catholic Church did not define the doctrine of the Trinity before there were protestants.

Then imagine the chaos if we did not give you the scriptures. Sola scriptura = chaos. There is an old Jewish saying that whenever there are two Jews who disagree there are three opinions. But as a result of sola scriptura whenever there are three sola scripturists who disagree there is a new denomination.

You say this so much more eloquently then I could.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
People motivated by a sincere search for truth will see it. But I don’t discern that you are such a person.

Oh, so all non-Catholics are deceived? Luckily, none of us are going to stand before you to be judged.

By all I’ve read and understand about what the CC actually teaches, I am a fellow member along with you in the body of Christ. Guess that’s not good enough for you. You need to get off your high-horse and try behaving more like Jesus teaches us.

Please do not put words in my mouth. I never said that all non-Catholics are deceived. And I am well aware that you will not stand before me in judgement. Whether that is lucky or not is unanswerable. As for being a member in the Body of Christ you are indeed a member by virtue of your baptism. I’m taking your word that it was valid. That is indeed good enough for me but unfortunately, like you said, I not going to be the one to judge you. That’s why I said whether that is lucky or not is unanswerable.

 

[Just_Me_Andrew]

For almost 2 years now I have struggled with my faith and went my separate ways with the Church. I have debated, done research, studied books and all I can see in Protestantism is confusion.

There is history and facts that can’t be ignored concerning the Catholic Church. E.g. the fact that the church laid down what is Scripture especially the NT and to this day Protestantism still uses the 27 NT books. The cannon issue is the most powerful argument for the church. If there is no church with authority, if God didn’t invest the church with binding and loosing authority to make these binding decisions then the result would be: we wouldn’t have the NT today. You can`t separate Christ from his body.

The church dealt with the most horrendous heresies from the likes of Arius, Gnostics Nestorians etc. Imagine if the Arians would have won the day…the JWs would have felt right at home.

These issues and more I believe conviction from God and his Grace…I must go back to the Church. May God have mercy on me as I go to confession.

I just wanted to tell the rest of the Catholics on the forum…my comments I apologize for if I offended any of you, I was wrestling with my conscience and faith…I just can`t remain outside of the church anymore. Pray the Lord will give me strength to confess all my sins and may he receive me back into his Church.

The church of Jesus Christ has remained for 2000 years and will be here into eternity. Thank you Lord for this witness…Amen

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JustMeAndrew,

Maybe John 10:37-38 has a meaning here for you in this context:

**If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” **

The ‘works’ done by the Catholic Chruch are a product of the guidance given by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is a true Gift of God - and, believe me, God has given His Church many other priceless Gifts - Apostolic Tradition and the Magesterium are also from the God’s bounty. Be of great Joy that you can enjoy these other Gifts, too!

You have been through a lot - and, in reality you will have more to go through (as will we all!) but, rest assured you will remain in my prayers.

God bless

Tom

For almost 2 years now I have struggled with my faith and went my separate ways with the Church. I have debated, done research, studied books and all I can see in Protestantism is confusion.

There is history and facts that can’t be ignored concerning the Catholic Church. E.g. the fact that the church laid down what is Scripture especially the NT and to this day Protestantism still uses the 27 NT books. The cannon issue is the most powerful argument for the church. If there is no church with authority, if God didn’t invest the church with binding and loosing authority to make these binding decisions then the result would be: we wouldn’t have the NT today. You can`t separate Christ from his body.

The church dealt with the most horrendous heresies from the likes of Arius, Gnostics Nestorians etc. Imagine if the Arians would have won the day…the JWs would have felt right at home.

These issues and more I believe conviction from God and his Grace…I must go back to the Church. May God have mercy on me as I go to confession.

I just wanted to tell the rest of the Catholics on the forum…my comments I apologize for if I offended any of you, I was wrestling with my conscience and faith…I just can`t remain outside of the church anymore. Pray the Lord will give me strength to confess all my sins and may he receive me back into his Church.

The church of Jesus Christ has remained for 2000 years and will be here into eternity. Thank you Lord for this witness…Amen

 

[Just_Me_Andrew]

tqualey:

Thank you for your prayers and the quoted scriptures you gave from John 10, I appreciate it. As James 5: 16 says `…The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects`` There were many things that convicted me and opened my eyes to the error of my ways. Too many to mention.

One of the things in my life that really happened was when I left the church, discussions with my Sabbatarian father…and brother. I came to see how that from the scriptures no matter how well you believe you know them…outside of the church there is no sure foundation…there is no way to know you are right for sure. All you can do is hope you are right and trust your conscience. However thousands of Protestant sects do the same thing and have different doctrines.

It all boils down to the issue of authority in the end. Whose authority will we submit too…the church of Jesus which has existed visibly or one of the many sectarian churches of Protestantism…and to boot trust our own interpretation of the scriptures…

I cant and wont do that anymore…the Lord Jesus established one universal church through the ages. The Catholic Church. May the Lord bless you and keep you.–Andrew

 

[PRmerger]

For almost 2 years now I have struggled with my faith and went my separate ways with the Church. I have debated, done research, studied books and all I can see in Protestantism is confusion.

There is history and facts that can’t be ignored concerning the Catholic Church. E.g. the fact that the church laid down what is Scripture especially the NT and to this day Protestantism still uses the 27 NT books. The cannon issue is the most powerful argument for the church. If there is no church with authority, if God didn’t invest the church with binding and loosing authority to make these binding decisions then the result would be: we wouldn’t have the NT today. You can`t separate Christ from his body.

The church dealt with the most horrendous heresies from the likes of Arius, Gnostics Nestorians etc. Imagine if the Arians would have won the day…the JWs would have felt right at home.

These issues and more I believe conviction from God and his Grace…I must go back to the Church. May God have mercy on me as I go to confession.

I just wanted to tell the rest of the Catholics on the forum…my comments I apologize for if I offended any of you, I was wrestling with my conscience and faith…I just can`t remain outside of the church anymore. Pray the Lord will give me strength to confess all my sins and may he receive me back into his Church.

The church of Jesus Christ has remained for 2000 years and will be here into eternity. Thank you Lord for this witness…Amen

Wow! Amazing! God is good!

 

[1holycatholic]

Mary is the mother of God, not God the mother.

End of discussion.

Moderators, you may close the thread.

 

[guanophore]

For almost 2 years now I have struggled with my faith and went my separate ways with the Church. I have debated, done research, studied books and all I can see in Protestantism is confusion.

There is history and facts that can’t be ignored concerning the Catholic Church. E.g. the fact that the church laid down what is Scripture especially the NT and to this day Protestantism still uses the 27 NT books. The cannon issue is the most powerful argument for the church. If there is no church with authority, if God didn’t invest the church with binding and loosing authority to make these binding decisions then the result would be: we wouldn’t have the NT today. You can`t separate Christ from his body.

The church dealt with the most horrendous heresies from the likes of Arius, Gnostics Nestorians etc. Imagine if the Arians would have won the day…the JWs would have felt right at home.

These issues and more I believe conviction from God and his Grace…I must go back to the Church. May God have mercy on me as I go to confession.

I just wanted to tell the rest of the Catholics on the forum…my comments I apologize for if I offended any of you, I was wrestling with my conscience and faith…I just can`t remain outside of the church anymore. Pray the Lord will give me strength to confess all my sins and may he receive me back into his Church.

The church of Jesus Christ has remained for 2000 years and will be here into eternity. Thank you Lord for this witness…Amen

Glory to God Andrew!!

We are honored to walk with you in your faith journey. You will feel such unity and refreshment when you go to confession. For me, it was 20 years sojourning amoung the fractured Protestant communities. God used all of it to build my spirit, but it was a great privilege and gift to come home again.

 

[Tom]

Our Lord, and Savior, Jesus, the Christ, left us one thing, and it was NOT a book, no matter how wonderful the book is. He left us a Church.
Authority was not left to a written book; it was left in the hands of men, specifically the Apostles and their successors.
The only reason we know that, what we now call the Bible, is in fact the Word of God, is that the Catholic Church, the one Jesus gave authority to, said it is the Word of God!
Jesus did NOT tell His disciples to write one word! He gave His authority to His Church and promised that His Church would endure forever. It still is enduring, it’s Catholic, universal, and yes, all of you Protestants, even though it makes you shiver, you’re members of the Catholic Church. We wish you’d come to the family reunion every day, it’s called the Mass, but you’re still family if you don’t.
The Bible is in fact the Word of God! It came from the Church! The Church did not come from the book; it is the other way around. The Bible doesn’t give authority to the Church, the Church gives authority to the Bible. They do NOT teach different things! The Bible IS a Catholic teaching! Where do you think it came from?

 

[PLeeD]

JMA, congratulations on your spiritual progress.

While I understand your frustrations with absence of a final authority outside the CC, I wonder, how will you overcome the intellectual doubts you’ve expressed about things like Marianism? I take it that you intend to step out of the intellectual realm and accept on faith alone?

 

[PRmerger]

JMA, congratulations on your spiritual progress.

While I understand your frustrations with absence of a final authority outside the CC, I wonder, how will you overcome the intellectual doubts you’ve expressed about things like Marianism? I take it that you intend to step out of the intellectual realm and accept on faith alone?

Or, one could look at it that he stepped out of the realm of faith alone (that is, accepting on faith that the Catholic Church could not possibly be the One True Church) and stepped into the intellectual realm.

 

[simspt]

JMA, congratulations on your spiritual progress.

While I understand your frustrations with absence of a final authority outside the CC, I wonder, how will you overcome the intellectual doubts you’ve expressed about things like Marianism? I take it that you intend to step out of the intellectual realm and accept on faith alone?

At the end of the day we all have to put our faith in the Catholic Church and its guidance by the HS whether we acknowledge it or not Protestant or Catholic. This is logically inescapable if one accepts orthodox Christianity. All of our faith is based on the tradition of the Church passing on the testiomony of the Apostles and their followers. That IMO seems to be something we share today as Christians, the rich heritage of the CC.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Simspt,

Excellent post!

Best wishes on your RCIA experience.

God bless

At the end of the day we all have to put our faith in the Catholic Church and its guidance by the HS whether we acknowledge it or not Protestant or Catholic. This is logically inescapable if one accepts orthodox Christianity. All of our faith is based on the tradition of the Church passing on the testiomony of the Apostles and their followers. That IMO seems to be something we share today as Christians, the rich heritage of the CC.

 

[simspt]

Hi, Simspt,

Excellent post!

Best wishes on your RCIA experience.

God bless

Thank you for your kind words.