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CompSciGuy
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From our point of view, perhaps. But many evangelicals believe that they have a better understanding of scripture than we do, or the orthodox, or the muslims especially. So they would think we are in error, many of them think the Catholic Church is one of the greatest evils in the world. Someone actually told me today he believed that Catholics are “more into Satan than they are into God.” Whatever that means. So given that fact obviously they don’t see Catholics, Orthodox and Muslims as examples to follow.So, Muslim attitude lining up better with Archangel Gabriel’s is not something that a Christian ought to be embarrassed about?
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Publisher
Guest
Friend.“chuck”.you seemed to believe that she needs to be addressed a certain way because the writer of Luke did so…I could address her as the writer of Luke did…but why can’t I use the language of the other gospels as well as Paul?
Pious legends that rose up concerning Mary and the infant Jesus in the 2nd and 3rd centuries have no basis in fact or history. There is no mention of Mary being dedicated in the Temple outside of the apocryphal writings rejected as scripture.
If you wish to address her as “blessed” or ‘full of grace" as the writer of Luke did…wonderful…but that is not necessarily more “normative” than the other writers of scripture…The writers of Matthew, Mark and John seemed to not have realizes she was to be addressed or called "blessed’ or “full of grace”…or if they knew of those titles…they didn’t seem to be important enough for them to make sure they addressed Mary in that way.
I have no problem with her titles bestowed upon her by the proto-orthodox/catholic communities…I am not part of that tradition…I honor her as the mother of Jesus and admire her great faith…she is truly worthy of immitation as a Christian…
Pious legends that rose up concerning Mary and the infant Jesus in the 2nd and 3rd centuries have no basis in fact or history. There is no mention of Mary being dedicated in the Temple outside of the apocryphal writings rejected as scripture.
If you wish to address her as “blessed” or ‘full of grace" as the writer of Luke did…wonderful…but that is not necessarily more “normative” than the other writers of scripture…The writers of Matthew, Mark and John seemed to not have realizes she was to be addressed or called "blessed’ or “full of grace”…or if they knew of those titles…they didn’t seem to be important enough for them to make sure they addressed Mary in that way.
I have no problem with her titles bestowed upon her by the proto-orthodox/catholic communities…I am not part of that tradition…I honor her as the mother of Jesus and admire her great faith…she is truly worthy of immitation as a Christian…
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chuckfrmvalyfrg
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No , rather it’s that you choose NEVER to call her , " Blessed " or " Full of Grace " , i.e., it’s a conscious denial of those titles on your part .
Regarding " pious legends" , how do you know they have No Basis In Fact when the definition of " legend " does NOT exclusively denote " fiction " ( the same goes for "myths " ) ?
Writings rejected as scripture can still be useful and informative , it just means they were not inspired . IT does NOT mean that what they contain is Necessarily false .
Do you reject the Didache ?
Again , why is it good enough for Gabriel and Elizabeth but not for you ?
How do you explain Marian devotions written on the walls of the catacombs ?
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gcnuss
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If you were to attend the church I serve as an ELCA pastor this Sunday, you would hear, in my sermon, Mary described as a model of faith and obedience to God’s will. You would hear me encouraging people to be ready, when God calls them to his service, to answer as Mary did, “here I am, the servant of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your will.”
I’m not sure what you mean by asking “where is the love and reverence?” I assume that you think non-Catholics should venerate Mary in the way that Catholics do and that if we don’t we are not exhibiting “love and reverence.” In fact, we honor Mary as the mother of our Lord, recognizing her unique role in our salvation by being chosen for that role.
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AbideWithMe
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I’m going to sleep soon so I didn’t go to that link from Christianity Today, Cat, but is that the article “Something About Mary” by Sarah Hinlicky Wilson? If it is, I was thinking about posting the link myself this afternoon but had to get ready to go to a concert.
There are a number of other CT articles linked at the end of “Something about Mary” that should be worthwhile for anyone genuinely interested in understanding non-Catholic views of Mary.
Chuck, as a matter of fact I called Mary “blessed” today, as well as “full of grace” and beautiful (spiritually). I’ve heard numerous entire sermons from my Evangelical Free Church pastors, throughout the year, on Mary as someone who was beautiful in God’s sight.
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chuckfrmvalyfrg
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AbideWithMe
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Oh, I see that wasn’t the CT article “Something About Mary”, Cat. In fact, today I was looking via Google for the article you posted, since I’d read it awhile ago, but couldn’t think of the right keywords. Thanks for posting it.
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AbideWithMe
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Slinger
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I would have to say that all of the people I know, Catholic or not, never has referred to Mary (in my presence) with those titles or adjectives attached but refer to her simply by her name when having discussion. I’m not saying they never do or that people don’t consider her “blessed” or “full of grace”, etc. but it’s simply that many people just don’t normally talk that way. I only hear these terms used on Catholic radio, television, print, services or these boards but not out of people’s mouths. Simply put, just because someone does not say these things does not mean they are consciously denying those virtures of Mary…it’s that they don’t talk like that.
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Marybeloved
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Really? I mostly call Mary “the Mother of God” with protestants, and “Our Lady” pretty much everywhere else, it’s hard to just call her “Mary”, just as it is to call Our Lord “Jesus” all the time- too too familiar for a person we in fact believe to be our Savior and God in the flesh. In the same manner, I rarely call the saints by their names without inserting “St” as a prefix. I feel disrespectful when I say, Paul, Peter, John, John the Baptist, Joseph (Most especially st. Joseph, father of our Lord as simply "Joseph’)- It can only be appropriate to say- St. Joseph etc.
Of course, if you’re interacting mostly with non-religious people, you’ll likely not hear them use reverential terms, Catholic or not. But you would not expect to hear religious folk, especially in a religious context, not applying the terms.
For example, on internet forums, it’s usually easy for me to pick out trolls who pose as orthodox Catholic, or even orthodox Protestants and other Christians, when they are Muslims or non-religious etc by how they speak. A person who never refers to Christ as The Lord or Our Lord, The/Our Savior, The/Our Redeemer etc strikes me as either a non-Christian or if Christian, a non-Orthodox one. One who never refers to Our Lady as our Lady, the Mother of God, St. Mary, Theotokos, Our Blessed Mother, The Blessed Virgin etc- and is fond of referring to the Saints without the St. or Blessed pre-fix before the Saint’s name cannot convince me they are Catholic or Orthodox- at least not “orthodox” members of the churches. I do refer to them like this so often that I’ve discovered I’ve influenced my SDA mother into always referring to the Apostles and others as St. Peter, St. Paul, St. John the Baptist, St. Steven, St. Elizabeth etc.
which is unusual for her.
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TarkanAttila
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Labour pains were given to Eve, and from the time they left Eden, every human woman has had them. It’s a physical sign that human women are born with original sin.Did Christ suffer on the Cross? I fail to see your point.
My question and the question of many Protestants is, does that mean Mary also had these pains, and if she did, does that mean she was not free from even original sin?
This question becomes slightly more pertinent when we speak of the woman in the 12th chapter of John’s Apocalypse:
Apocalypse 12:1-2 said:
By some Catholic interpretations, that woman is Mary (and could also be the state of Israel, the Church).
But some Protestants argue either that the woman’s “travailing in birth” is a sign either that Mary was not without sin, and/or that that woman is not Mary (although the child is definitely Jesus).
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Cat
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I don’t agree with this.Really? I mostly call Mary “the Mother of God” with protestants, and “Our Lady” pretty much everywhere else, it’s hard to just call her “Mary”, just as it is to call Our Lord “Jesus” all the time- too too familiar for a person we in fact believe to be our Savior and God in the flesh. In the same manner, I rarely call the saints by their names without inserting “St” as a prefix. I feel disrespectful when I say, Paul, Peter, John, John the Baptist, Joseph (Most especially st. Joseph, father of our Lord as simply "Joseph’)- It can only be appropriate to say- St. Joseph etc.
Of course, if you’re interacting mostly with non-religious people, you’ll likely not hear them use reverential terms, Catholic or not. But you would not expect to hear religious folk, especially in a religious context, not applying the terms.
For example, on internet forums, it’s usually easy for me to pick out trolls who pose as orthodox Catholic, or even orthodox Protestants and other Christians, when they are Muslims or non-religious etc by how they speak. A person who never refers to Christ as The Lord or Our Lord, The/Our Savior, The/Our Redeemer etc strikes me as either a non-Christian or if Christian, a non-Orthodox one. One who never refers to Our Lady as our Lady, the Mother of God, St. Mary, Theotokos, Our Blessed Mother, The Blessed Virgin etc- and is fond of referring to the Saints without the St. or Blessed pre-fix before the Saint’s name cannot convince me they are Catholic or Orthodox- at least not “orthodox” members of the churches. I do refer to them like this so often that I’ve discovered I’ve influenced my SDA mother into always referring to the Apostles and others as St. Peter, St. Paul, St. John the Baptist, St. Steven, St. Elizabeth etc.
It is wrong of you to judge people because they do not use the same titles as you do. A person is a Catholic because the Church has declared that they are Catholic, after they have completed the Sacraments of Initiation and presented themselves to the bishop.
There are no “tests” of Catholicism once someone has been admitted into the Catholic Church. Obviously we want to see Catholics keep the Precepts of the Church, receive Holy Communion as often as possible, make use of the other Sacraments when appropriate, and uphold the teachings of the Church. As you know, many Catholics do not do these things, but they are still Catholic.
So it’s not right for you to put Catholics to the test. I fear that I would fail that test, as I seldom use titles like “Our Lady” or “Blessed Mother” when I refer to Mary.
You do it because you were raised this way and it feels right to you.
People who come from the evangelical Protestant tradition do not generally refer to people with adjectives. It feels “clumsy.” Even if we have converted and embrace all the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding Mary, it still feels awkward to us to call her by these names in general conversation. In prayer, yes, but not in the course of conversation.
Many Americans do not refer to President Obama as “President Obama” but merely “Obama,” even those who love and honor him as a great President. Same for all our Presidents. I try to remember to refer to our President by his title, but I don’t always succeed. That doesn’t mean that I don’t honor him as the President, and were I to meet him in person, he would most certainly be “Mr. President” or “President Obama,” and not merely “Hey, Barack!”
Many Americans don’t refer to anyone by a title, even teachers or doctors. They are just addressed by their first name. It means no disrespect–it’s just the way our culture is. Titles do not roll easily off American tongues. We are steeped from childhood in the idea that all are equal.
So I recommend that you stop using your “test” to determine who is respectful and reverent of Mary, and instead, remember that reverence is in the heart. Lots of people who use the phrase, “Holy Mary, Mother of God!” are using this as an irreverent exclamation. And many people who do not use one of her titles are still honoring her in their hearts.
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Cat
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No, I think “Something About Mary” was an article that CT published last year (or maybe a few years back). CT has published several nice articles about Mary in recent years, and they have published quite a few pieces that make it clear that they consider the Catholic Church a true Christian Church (but not THE Christian Church).
Like I said, evangelical Protestants ARE becoming much more aware of the true role of Mary, and are honoring her more than they used to.
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Marybeloved
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Who said I’m using the test to determine reverence? Did you actually read what I said? It’s quite easy for me to tell someone’s religious convictions by their manner of speaking, and until I find a person who discusses religion with other religious folk without ever using reverential titles and is still obviously of that conviction, I’ll keep my observations. Are you saying you go through entire discussions of Mary without EVER employing a respectful title or one that betrays (makes obvious/plain) your convictions about her? Even Mother of God?
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exnihilo
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America has fully embraced Jacobin equality. Now we are all thoroughly equal. Not that long ago we referred to strangers by their last name. Now some young kid I dont know thinks he has the right to call me by my first name as if we are friends.
Of course that idea of equality is against Chrsitian teaching. There are betters in this world. I believe the lack of honor we show to our fellow man translates to a lack of honor shown to God. The practice of recognizing other men formerly helps us to understand the respect God deservers which is infinitelly greater. I think we should call strangers Mr. or Mrs. I think we should call our elders that as well. I think we should call our pastors by their last name and not ‘Pastor Jim’. I think we should refer to Apostles and other great Christians as St. I practice that myself. I have to admit that in my church giving a title to Mary would be unusual. But there is no reason it should be and if I had to guess is simply the result of atttempting to distance ourselves from Catholicism. We would have been wrong in doing so.
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JustaServant
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My parents generation insisted upon that respect. You were to call your elders Mr and Mrs. I don’t look at it as them being our betters, I look at it simply as respect and honor.
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exnihilo
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The respect and honor are due to the assumption that the position makes one better. In this case we would assume that a parent is wiser than a child and therefore better in that respect. This is of course not always so. But we give the position respect. Being better in one respect does not make one better in all.
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