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EA_Man
Guest
Amen!
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JPhoenix75
Guest
Here is an interesting twist to the topic. I am qouting my own statements from the ***Only Catholics Pray the Hail Mary ***thread.
*Here it is: *
*http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Only Catholics pray the Hail Mary? *
*Here is my two cents on this matter? Does anyone one of you know of a Protestant or any non-Catholic who is or was a member of a Choir? Ask them if they ever sang Ave, Maria? If the answer is yes, Catholics are not the only ones praying (or should I say singing) the Hail Mary. *
Just an interesting thought I think you might find interesting*.*
*Here it is: *
*http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Only Catholics pray the Hail Mary? *
*Here is my two cents on this matter? Does anyone one of you know of a Protestant or any non-Catholic who is or was a member of a Choir? Ask them if they ever sang Ave, Maria? If the answer is yes, Catholics are not the only ones praying (or should I say singing) the Hail Mary. *
Just an interesting thought I think you might find interesting*.*
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Peace-bwu
Guest
April_hosen
I am not asking this in a sarcastic way, but where did you get this? I have never heard or read this before. I have been Catholic for 30 yrs but have never heard this, who coined the phrase?
I have always heard "“semper idem” (always the same).
I could be wrong, although I have been Catholic all my life, I am always learning something new. It doesn’t sound right to me, a little too democratic, so I am curious where the quote came from and what context it was in.
Thanks,
Peace
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Peace-bwu
Guest
Most of us have had weak moments on this site at one time or another, you are forgiven! Thanks.I wanted to apologize to everyone on this thread for being sarcastic.
I’m sorry.
I’ll try to keep in mind that we are all one in Jesus Christ.
We forgive Mickey too.
Mary is our Blessed Mother because she chose to be the Mother of God when she was called, so because we have new life in Christ by His redemption, she was also giving birth to us spiritually, by being the mother of the Redeemer she was becoming the spiritual mother to all who were and are redeemed.
You know the old “your momma” jokes, well the Catholic boy gets mad when his momma is dissed, (I mean this to be humerous)
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EA_Man
Guest
While we can disagree as to the appropriate way to honor Mary, I just wanted to be clear that all of the Protestants that I know acknowledge Mary as the first Christian and Blessed among women.
I’ll try to step carefully so as to avoid toes.
Peace
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Palatine
Guest
First off, I’ll extend the apology if I seemed uncharitable. I really try not to, but sometimes I miss comments that seem more offensive than they mean to be. Sorry for those, and in advance lest I do it again.
Second. I started off my reactions in this thread trying to understand prayer from just ourselves, and then asking others to pray for us. Setting aside for a moment the Heavenly saints, help me understand this, you said earlier that:
EA_Man:
EA_Man:
So again, genuinely trying to understand your logic, how is asking your friends for help any different than asking the saints for their prayers (in the sense that we are doing more than JUST going to God.)
Ok, back to the debate I started.
EA_Man:
EA_Man:
I’m sorry if I avoided the issues, I didn’t mean to
In the interest of being brothers in Christ, I’ll keep you in my prayers, God bless!
Second. I started off my reactions in this thread trying to understand prayer from just ourselves, and then asking others to pray for us. Setting aside for a moment the Heavenly saints, help me understand this, you said earlier that:
If it is indeed redundant to ask the intercession of the saints, how is is any less redundant to ask other people for their prayers? You might point to where you said:
But, usually, when I ask others for prayers, I don’t stay and pray with them, but trust that they’ll be praying for me any time they stop for prayers. This isn’t particularly two or three gathering in Christ’s name, is it? I mean, I may stay and pray with them, and then that makes sense, but what about all those times when we are not physically together?
So again, genuinely trying to understand your logic, how is asking your friends for help any different than asking the saints for their prayers (in the sense that we are doing more than JUST going to God.)
Ok, back to the debate I started.
I could ask if you have any scripture verse to back up the claim that they can’t? But then, that would just be avoiding the issue, huh? I’ll scour my Bible for something soon, since as I’ve already said, I’m not as well-versed (no pun intended) in Scripture as I want to be.
I don’t know what your position is, but if you hold some of the beliefs other Protestants I’ve talked to (you may feel free to correct me, since I know not all Prostants hold the same interpretation) you may think that Jesus had blood brothers. If you don’t agree with that, then you might agree that Jesus had cousins. If either of these is the case, why would Jesus give his mother to someone who wasn’t even related? The only reasonable answer (that I see) is that Jesus meant more than just giving Mary to John to look after. And even if my logic there falls through there, are we not Jesus’ brothers? Wouldn’t that make Mary our mother, just as it makes God our Father?
I’m sorry if I avoided the issues, I didn’t mean to
In the interest of being brothers in Christ, I’ll keep you in my prayers, God bless!
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Eden
Guest
The thing that people miss when they downgrade Mary is the fact no one more than Mary, here on earth, suffered Jesus’ agonies along with Him. Mary was not just a vessel through whom the Holy Spirit brought His Son. She raised Jesus and worried about Him in the way only a mother does. Mary accepted the Holy Spirit’s will and allowed herself to suffer alongside His anguishes. Imagine His mother at the foot of His cross and ask yourself, “Is Mary not blessed?”
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EA_Man
Guest
Yes, you’ve pegged me correctly. I believe that Mary and Joseph had children as a result of natural relations. I’m sorry, that’s as polite as I know how to be and still be exact about it.
As for your question regarding Jesus’ statement to John:
Matthew 12:48-50
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” The short answer here is that Jesus left His mother in the care of one of His “real” family members, not with one of His earthly family. After all who be more willing to do God’s will?
Careful of overliteralizing here: God is our Father, Jesus is our brother, isn’t Mary our Mother…Are God and Mary married?
God is spirit. He is Divinity. Mary is created. She is of a different order than God.
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Eden
Guest
Mary: Our Mother in the Order of Grace
There are many articles about the meaning of Mary as our Mother. I’ve provided one link, but articles are innumerable:
catholicfaithandreason.org/MARY1.HTM
Mary had to be “wholly borne by God’s grace” in order to “give the assent of faith.” She was the mother of God first in her heart, than in her body. Pope John Paul tells us that “this consent to motherhood is above all a result of her total self-giving to God in virginity.” She was, he notes, “guided by spousal love, the love which totally consecrates a human being to God.”
There are many articles about the meaning of Mary as our Mother. I’ve provided one link, but articles are innumerable:
catholicfaithandreason.org/MARY1.HTM
Mary had to be “wholly borne by God’s grace” in order to “give the assent of faith.” She was the mother of God first in her heart, than in her body. Pope John Paul tells us that “this consent to motherhood is above all a result of her total self-giving to God in virginity.” She was, he notes, “guided by spousal love, the love which totally consecrates a human being to God.”
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Eden
Guest
While it is possible that Joseph had children before he married Mary, the idea that Mary and Joseph had children together is perpetuated to deny the ever-virginity of Mary.
As Jesus was an only child, he put his mother under the care of the disciple John:
John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, “Woman, behold thy son!” Then saith he to the disciple, “Behold thy mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
“If Jesus had brothers and sisters, there would be no need to put His mother under the care of John. In fact, it would probably be an insult to His siblings. On the other hand, if we assume Jesus had no siblings, the way He provided for the care of His mother makes perfect sense.”
A man named Antoine Valentim has compiled a much longer defense of Mary and her Virginity:
globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/brothers.htm
As Jesus was an only child, he put his mother under the care of the disciple John:
John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, “Woman, behold thy son!” Then saith he to the disciple, “Behold thy mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
“If Jesus had brothers and sisters, there would be no need to put His mother under the care of John. In fact, it would probably be an insult to His siblings. On the other hand, if we assume Jesus had no siblings, the way He provided for the care of His mother makes perfect sense.”
A man named Antoine Valentim has compiled a much longer defense of Mary and her Virginity:
globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/brothers.htm
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sonseeker
Guest
No.
God is self-existing, and He is eternal; He has no mother.
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Mickey
Guest
None of the early reformers believed that. Would you happen to know when this theory first surfaced and by whom?
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Mickey
Guest
That is the Nestorian heresy. Do a search on the council of Ephesus and read about it. The Word was made flesh. Jesus is God The Son. When the Word became flesh, Mary became Theotokos.
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JimO
Guest
So, then, Jesus was not conceived in Mary’s womb by the Holy Spirit and born in the normal human fashion? Or is Jesus not God?
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mercygate
Guest
Son, your response reminds me of Catholics who say they don’t believe in the Church’s position on birth control.
The very statement tells me they do not understand the doctrine.
Check out this thread and do a very (very) **little **homework on this questions and you will see that the title “Mother of God” in no way compromises the self-existence or eternity of God. Really.
This is NOT one of the questions that separates Protestants and Catholics. Many Protestant denominations enthusiastically endorse the title “Mother of God” for Our Lady.
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sonseeker
Guest
Jesus is God; He is self-existing; He is eternal; He has no mother.
This has nothing to do with the Nestorians. You must believe God has a mother, or other of your beliefs cannot stand. I do not have to believe that. Mary is listed as the Mother of Jesus, a singular and unique man. Fully God, fully man. How can Mary be the mother of God who has always existed? It is a mystery to me.
I am answering the question posed at the top of the thread. You don’t have to agree with my answer.
Bill
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JimO
Guest
You lost me on the Nestorian comment, maybe that was directed to someone else. The problem with the view you expressed is the same problem that led to early misunderstandings in which the two natures of Christ were treated separately. This ultimately led to heresies where people denied Christ’s humanity and others that denied His divinity. The reference to Mary as Mother of God speaks to the dual nature of the God-man Jesus. The two natures cannot be separated and examined independent of one another.
I have found that this is an issue most Protestants don’t have a problem with once there is a thorough examination of it. Many react to it because it appears to elevate Mary to the level of God, which it doesn’t. Many Protestants just react to anything related to Mary because of misperceptions and, frankly, because of the problems created by many Catholics throughout the world who are out of balance when it comes to Mary.
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sonseeker
Guest
You are right Jim; I believe the Nestorian comment was from a post above yours.
However, may statement has nothing to do with the Nestorians. I am saying that God, who is self-existing, and eternal, cannot have a mother.
“Mother of God,” cannot be found anywhere in the scripture. The only genealogy of Jesus that lists Mary is Matthew’s, and he says “by whom Jesus was born,” NASB and others:
16 and Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
DARBY
16 and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
ASV
16 ιακωβ δε εγεννησεν τον ιωσηφ τον ανδρα μαριας εξ ης εγεννηθη ιησους ο λεγομενος χριστος
Elzevir
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.
ESV
16 From the time after the exile in Babylon to the birth of Jesus, the following ancestors are listed: Jehoiachin, Shealtiel, Zerubbabel, Abiud, Eliakim, Azor, Zadok, Achim, Eliud, Eleazar, Matthan, Jacob, and Joseph, who married Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was called the Messiah.
GNT
16 ιακωβ δε εγεννησεν τον ιωσηφ τον ανδρα** μαριας εξ ης εγεννηθη ιησους ο λεγομενος χριστος**
Tisch
My problem with it is that it is not clear thinking. If you would like to explain to me how an eternal existing being can have a mother, I’ll listen.
Bill
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sonseeker
Guest
Actually, I understand the doctrine; I just don’t agree with it.
Respectfully,
Bill
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jjwilkman
Guest
is!
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