The Muslim Loyalty Test...and other Eccentricities...?

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TheAtheist

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Given the events of the past few weeks, i’ve been noticing a rise in an often familiar comment:

“Why aren’t the moderate Muslims condemning what happened in Paris?”

…or herefore some variation of the above line followed by accusations that they are either all scared, not appropriately engaged with the situation, or somehow secretly support what’s happening.

I’ve seen this kind of comment on news sites, political websites, humanist/secularist websites/blogs…and Here on CAF.

Depending on the nature of the website in question - there is usually somebody or some group of people who are capable of producing the asked for condemnations - ranging from academic sources, individual imams, or the governing Muslim councils in nations.

The response to that usually is either a non-response or a quick changing of the topic.

But every so often you see a “goal-post” response => Something that implies that the condenmnations ore

a.) formalities
b.) not sincere

Which leads me to a simple question: if Condemnations aren’t enough… just what are people looking for…?

Obviously its some sort of Loyalty test - although what the parameters are rather…opaque to me.

I mean I decided to ask this question in a place that many of you would find…inimical…and the response I got from the so-called champions of logic, reason, and science (I really cringe the last one given that fact that is my profession) is essentially = “They should stop being Muslim.”

…because that’s somehow a suppsoedly practical answer. :rolleyes:

On those place with a more political/national bent = some people are actually speaking about a literal loyalty test…with the alternative being sending them “back to where they came from…”…even if the “they” happen to be a 3rd or 4th generation member of the French republic or other European polity.
So i’m here to ask the same question since the pattern of “No Condemnation - Yes there have Been Condemnations - Well the Condemnations aren’t Good Enough” can be seen even on this board.

What is it that people are looking for from our Muslim neighbors in light of the current troubles?

Because the alternative to a Rational Answer is on the Horizon…and it doesn’t look pretty:

→ mediaite.com/tv/virginia-mosque-meeting-gets-ugly-every-one-of-you-are-terrorists/

—> qz.com/550915/once-again-the-internet-is-confusing-a-sikh-man-with-muslim-terrorists/

[Sub Question: How many of you actually know what a Sikh is or what Sikhism is?

Cause the above story is a little reminicent of

—> Murder of Balbir Singh Sodhi - Wikipedia

→ fateh.sikhnet.com//sikhnet/news.nsf/NewsArchive/346896D867EB03EB872571D100683355 ]
 
TheAtheist said:
An example - Donald Trumps call for a Muslim Database/ID Cards.

theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/19/donald-trump-muslim-americans-special-identification-tracking-mosques
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it is a problem,when a religion rewards killing infidels. It is a problem when a religion says sooner or later , all must subjugated to Allah, thru a caliphate etc…All Muslims, moderate or not, understand this. We must also understand that Muslims also have this internal struggle within its religion and culture, for peaceful coexistence time or jihad time. The Koran, and it’s founder exemplified both. What I do not know is did he exemplify the kind of killing as done by the terrorists? Is this something new to Islam ?
 
TheAtheist said:
Given the events of the past few weeks, i’ve been noticing a rise in an often familiar comment:

“Why aren’t the moderate Muslims condemning what happened in Paris?”

…or herefore some variation of the above line followed by accusations that they are either all scared, not appropriately engaged with the situation, or somehow secretly support what’s happening.

I’ve seen this kind of comment on news sites, political websites, humanist/secularist websites/blogs…and Here on CAF.

Depending on the nature of the website in question - there is usually somebody or some group of people who are capable of producing the asked for condemnations - ranging from academic sources, individual imams, or the governing Muslim councils in nations.

The response to that usually is either a non-response or a quick changing of the topic.

But every so often you see a “goal-post” response => Something that implies that the condenmnations ore

a.) formalities
b.) not sincere

Which leads me to a simple question: if Condemnations aren’t enough… just what are people looking for…?

Obviously its some sort of Loyalty test - although what the parameters are rather…opaque to me.

I mean I decided to ask this question in a place that many of you would find…inimical…and the response I got from the so-called champions of logic, reason, and science (I really cringe the last one given that fact that is my profession) is essentially = “They should stop being Muslim.”

…because that’s somehow a suppsoedly practical answer. :rolleyes:

On those place with a more political/national bent = some people are actually speaking about a literal loyalty test…with the alternative being sending them “back to where they came from…”…even if the “they” happen to be a 3rd or 4th generation member of the French republic or other European polity.
So i’m here to ask the same question since the pattern of “No Condemnation - Yes there have Been Condemnations - Well the Condemnations aren’t Good Enough” can be seen even on this board.

What is it that people are looking for from our Muslim neighbors in light of the current troubles?

Because the alternative to a Rational Answer is on the Horizon…and it doesn’t look pretty:

→ mediaite.com/tv/virginia-mosque-meeting-gets-ugly-every-one-of-you-are-terrorists/

—> qz.com/550915/once-again-the-internet-is-confusing-a-sikh-man-with-muslim-terrorists/

[Sub Question: How many of you actually know what a Sikh is or what Sikhism is?

Cause the above story is a little reminicent of

—> Murder of Balbir Singh Sodhi - Wikipedia
Click to expand...
→ fateh.sikhnet.com//sikhnet/news.nsf/NewsArchive/346896D867EB03EB872571D100683355 ]

For the majority - I think many people aren’t enthused by these apologies because various cues - conscious or not - don’t inspire confidence. For instance, it has taken years of criticism to get even mild denunciations from ‘moderate’ Muslims.

For those who know a bit more than average about history and Islam, they can see patterns that keep recurring, patterns that don’t inspire confidence in the belief system itself.
 
crai7 said:
For the majority - I think many people aren’t enthused by these apologies because various cues - conscious or not - don’t inspire confidence. For instance, it has taken years of criticism to get even mild denunciations from ‘moderate’ Muslims.

For those who know a bit more than average about history and Islam, they can see patterns that keep recurring, patterns that don’t inspire confidence in the belief system itself.
Click to expand...
Valid answer. Thanks for the response.

But it doesn’t quite get what i’m aiming for - namely what is it that your all looking for?

In other words - since the Muslims have to jump through a hoop to prove themselves given the situation that is occurring - what’s that hoop?

What will it take ? What will satisfy you and say “Oh…well they are ok.”

Because if you can’t answer that - and if the “Goal” keeps getting shifted - if Condemnations aren’t enough and ID cards next and if ID cards aren’t enough and something else is next…

Well… we’re in for a Gigantic Meltdown.

Like… full on Clash of Civilizations meltdown.

By the way - this pretty relevant to me - the country of my birth has been attempting to deal with this ever since Mughals conquered India…
 
TheAtheist said:
I mean I decided to ask this question in a place that many of you would find…inimical…and the response I got from the so-called champions of logic, reason, and science (I really cringe the last one given that fact that is my profession) is essentially = “They should stop being Muslim.”

…because that’s somehow a suppsoedly practical answer. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Shouldn’t really shock you. I’ve been seeing answers like that across my social media feeds and even members of my own family. They’ve skewed heavily into the “blame religion” mentality lately.

Paris in particular seems to have been a tipping point at least in my own limited experience with the more a-religious I know. Part of it was the attack itself perpetrated for obviously extremist religious reasons. And part of it has been the vehement anti refugee response from many against refugee victims of ISIL and Assad by so called Christians who are acting out of fear rather than compassion for their fellow man.
 
Padres1969 said:
Shouldn’t really shock you. I’ve been seeing answers like that across my social media feeds and even members of my own family. They’ve skewed heavily into the “blame religion” mentality lately.
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Not shocked…but disappointed. New Atheism continues to morph into an ideological position that is becoming just as distant from the practicalities of reality like any other.
Paris in particular seems to have been a tipping point at least in my own limited experience with the more a-religious I know. Part of it was the attack itself perpetrated for obviously extremist religious reasons. And part of it has been the vehement anti refugee response from many against refugee victims of ISIL and Assad by so called Christians who are acting out of fear rather than compassion for their fellow man.
Click to expand...
Hence my question…

Because i’m not one of you, I can’t state what is a True or False Christian - I can only point to historical trends.

Although - there’s something heavily ironic whether we are talking about atheists who ostensibly are for Enlightenment values or Christians who follow the path laid out by Jesus of Nazareth…

…because to my untrained eye, it seems like the moment when the going got tough - all these groups just shrank from their higher ideals… You know the ones that they are happy castigate others with. 😛

Human…all too Human at the end of the day. 😛

Hence my Question - What will it take?

Or is the fact that no one can answer what i’m asking already a sign -
  • that nothing the Muslims can do will EVER satsify suspicion.
 
friardchips said:
He’s entitled to his thoughts but I would put trust in non-sensationalist sources.

There are other more worthy news sites and sources that one can glean for well-informed opinions in order to form a well-reasoned outlook in respect of current world issues.
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I’m not saying he’s not entitled to his opinion.

I’m just presenting it as one person’s view (that of a Presidential candidate), about what it would take for him to be comfortable with Muslims given the situation.

Like i’ve been saying since the very first post -

If there’s such a great distrust regarding the Muslim population in light of what has happened in Paris - if the condemnations that have been coming out aren’t good enough (assuming of course people aware that the condemnations are there to begin with).

Just what is good enoguh?

Is anything good enough at this point?

Or… has ISIS really just accomplished what Osama Bin Laden had been trying to do for the last decade?
 
Tally Reminder:

148 Views

3 Comments surrounding the Issue

0 Responses to the Actual Question - No one has taken the bull by its horns.

…
…
…

Its at this time i’d like to remind those in the Peanut Gallery what a Sikh Dastar looks like… en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dastar

you know, just in case you all get confused…

And i guess this round goes to ISIS. 😦
 
TheAtheist said:
Tally Reminder:

148 Views

3 Comments surrounding the Issue

0 Responses to the Actual Question - No one has taken the bull by its horns.

…
…
…

Its at this time i’d like to remind those in the Peanut Gallery what a Sikh Dastar looks like… en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dastar

you know, just in case you all get confused…

And i guess this round goes to ISIS. 😦
Click to expand...
To answer your primary question, “Which leads me to a simple question: if Condemnations aren’t enough… just what are people looking for…?”

At a time like this people are simply confused and afraid. They’re lashing out, and Islam as a whole presents a large amorphous target that many Americans are only peripherally familiar with and Islam presents something that is woefully misunderstood and misconstrued to them by sources that they put way too much trust in (ie: politicians, the news, etc…). What they’re really looking for is simply someone or something to help them make sense of this situation. And what these terrible sources like the news and politicians tell them is that Islamic people are to blame.

They don’t put that in any context with regard to Islam. They don’t mention that the radicals are a mere fraction of a percentage point of the total worldwide billion person strong Islamic religious family. And they spend far more time telling easily impressionable people who is to blame rather than they do who among that religious group has denounced what is being done or that what the radicals are doing is a extreme minority perversion of the religion. So when people finally do read that there have been denouncements by people in positions of authority among the Islamic faithful the impressioned people in the US and western countries don’t believe it. It seems like too little too late when in reality, Muslims have been denouncing, protesting, and fighting against the radicalism the whole time.

So to get to your primary question, what is enough, in the context of modern western society, nothing will be enough until westerners educate themselves about what is really going on in their own countries and in the world Islamic or otherwise. This is a case of Americans and other westerners being the uneducated boobs they are and letting others in the media and political arena manipulate them as they so often do. It results in people who don’t know what they’re looking for. They just know they are scared, don’t like what is going on, and want someone to blame locally and hate so they can pretend to feel safe when that person is adequately admonished.
 
The green and naive thoughts of a college dude:

The whole Catholic Church received criticism for the priest abuse scandal–what exactly did the public want out of other priests besides condemnation?

A tiny percentage of Muslims are violent and evil, just as an even tinier percentage of priests were found to be sexual predators. But the whole group comes to be seen a problem in the public eye, however irrational that is. And with us, the criticism didn’t stop until years after the scandal had been exposed. I think as long as Muslim extremists are murdering innocent people, people will have an irrational animosity towards all Muslims. The fact that violence can more easily find a handhold in traditional Muslim teaching than sexual abuse could in traditional Catholic teaching (none whatsoever) only makes matters worse.

The question of how to detect the one wolf in sheep’s clothing for every ten thousand sheep here in the U.S. or Europe is another issue I think, to which there really isn’t a good answer.
 
Well padres, Gregory, thank for your thoughts.

So in the short term the answer really is: [Absolutely Nothing

Now there’s a depressing thought indeed.**
 
Hi, I just read this thread for the first time.

I have a counter-question: can anyone on this forum really be expected to speak for Donald Trump?
 
TheAtheist said:
Given the events of the past few weeks, i’ve been noticing a rise in an often familiar comment:

“Why aren’t the moderate Muslims condemning what happened in Paris?”

…or herefore some variation of the above line followed by accusations that they are either all scared, not appropriately engaged with the situation, or somehow secretly support what’s happening.

I’ve seen this kind of comment on news sites, political websites, humanist/secularist websites/blogs…and Here on CAF.

Depending on the nature of the website in question - there is usually somebody or some group of people who are capable of producing the asked for condemnations - ranging from academic sources, individual imams, or the governing Muslim councils in nations.

The response to that usually is either a non-response or a quick changing of the topic.

But every so often you see a “goal-post” response => Something that implies that the condenmnations ore

a.) formalities
b.) not sincere

Which leads me to a simple question: if Condemnations aren’t enough… just what are people looking for…?

Obviously its some sort of Loyalty test - although what the parameters are rather…opaque to me.

I mean I decided to ask this question in a place that many of you would find…inimical…and the response I got from the so-called champions of logic, reason, and science (I really cringe the last one given that fact that is my profession) is essentially = “They should stop being Muslim.”

…because that’s somehow a suppsoedly practical answer. :rolleyes:

On those place with a more political/national bent = some people are actually speaking about a literal loyalty test…with the alternative being sending them “back to where they came from…”…even if the “they” happen to be a 3rd or 4th generation member of the French republic or other European polity.
So i’m here to ask the same question since the pattern of “No Condemnation - Yes there have Been Condemnations - Well the Condemnations aren’t Good Enough” can be seen even on this board.

What is it that people are looking for from our Muslim neighbors in light of the current troubles?

Because the alternative to a Rational Answer is on the Horizon…and it doesn’t look pretty:

→ mediaite.com/tv/virginia-mosque-meeting-gets-ugly-every-one-of-you-are-terrorists/

—> qz.com/550915/once-again-the-internet-is-confusing-a-sikh-man-with-muslim-terrorists/

[Sub Question: How many of you actually know what a Sikh is or what Sikhism is?

Cause the above story is a little reminicent of

—> Murder of Balbir Singh Sodhi - Wikipedia
Click to expand...
→ fateh.sikhnet.com//sikhnet/news.nsf/NewsArchive/346896D867EB03EB872571D100683355 ]

A very simple answer - every Friday, thousands of Muslims gather for prayer at mosques around the world. They pray and the Imam preaches. That imam can and should lead the group on a march/demonstration protesting what his community perceives as evil - ie terrorism and slaughter of innocent people. The reason this never takes place is that half of the mosque community supports terrorism and would never follow.

After the Paris attacks, there was an imam in Paris who spoke out publicly against…hate speech. He did not condemn the terrorists who killed 130 people. He demanded political correctness from us.

There was a protest in Dearborn Michigan. A crowd of about 100, as the media described it, went out to condemn violence in Syria and Iraq. THis was great, except that the Muslim population of Dearborn is 40,000 and growing. There was no imam leading the protest. Why not? Where were the crowds one would expect to see, if that community actually did condemn terrorism?

Actions speak louder than words, and there are no actions from the Muslim community.
 
Ontheway said:
A very simple answer - every Friday, thousands of Muslims gather for prayer at mosques around the world. They pray and the Imam preaches. That imam can and should lead the group on a march/demonstration protesting what his community perceives as evil - ie terrorism and slaughter of innocent people. The reason this never takes place is that half of the mosque community supports terrorism and would never follow.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure how many support terrorism (and it’s hard to believe that you’re even serious with “half”) but I know that it cannot be inferred from the lack of imam-lead demonstrations against terrorism.
 
Indeed there have been condemnations from hundreds of Muslim spiritual and political leaders. The press haven’t been too good about covering them as they don’t play into the Muslim fear hysteria that keeps the ill informed hooked onto their news stations. But there have been plenty of condemnations from the Muslim populace.

As for the Deerborn protest, I’m surprised they got 100 people out on Black Friday. Most people, even Muslims, are usually out shopping or recovering from Thanksgiving on the Friday after (assuming they’re lucky enough to have the day off). And some were undoubtedly fearful to come out if they wanted to for fear of reprisals from simpletons who reflexively hate all Muslims right now.
 
Padres1969 said:
Indeed there have been condemnations from hundreds of Muslim spiritual and political leaders. The press haven’t been too good about covering them as they don’t play into the Muslim fear hysteria that keeps the ill informed hooked onto their news stations. But there have been plenty of condemnations from the Muslim populace.

As for the Deerborn protest, I’m surprised they got 100 people out on Black Friday. Most people, even Muslims, are usually out shopping or recovering from Thanksgiving on the Friday after (assuming they’re lucky enough to have the day off). And some were undoubtedly fearful to come out if they wanted to for fear of reprisals from simpletons who reflexively hate all Muslims right now.
Click to expand...
JUst curious. If there were hundreds of condemnations and they were not covered by the media, then how do you know about them?
 
Ontheway said:
JUst curious. If there were hundreds of condemnations and they were not covered by the media, then how do you know about them?
Click to expand...
They were covered by the non-mainstream US media. And are pretty easy to locate coverage of if you look beyond ABC, CNN, Fox, etc…
 
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