The Muslim Loyalty Test...and other Eccentricities...?

[Padres1969]

This is lovely, but there is not a single word about the evil of Islamist attacks. There is not one word about the Islamic community rejecting the ISIS fighters and their actions.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE.

Show me one quote from a Muslim leader telling the Islamist fighters that their actions are against the teachings of the Koran and they contradict Mohamed’s teaching.

Just one who will tell the Islamists that their actions are in violation of the Koran.

How about over 1000 Muslim Religious leaders issuing a Fatwa against Daesh (ISIL) and what it stands for? Their declarations specifically denounced Daesh’s religious vision and activities as “un-Islamic and inhuman” and said that its practices showed it had “no relation with Islam.” And they expressed “deep concern about the spread of extremist propaganda”

Does this meet your requirements?

 

[Peter_Plato]

How about over 1000 Muslim Religious leaders issuing a Fatwa against Daesh (ISIL) and what it stands for? Their declarations specifically denounced Daesh’s religious vision and activities as “un-Islamic and inhuman” and said that its practices showed it had “no relation with Islam.” And they expressed “deep concern about the spread of extremist propaganda”

Does this meet your requirements?

Link to source document, please?

The number seems to have grown from 120 and the document from an “open letter” to a fatwa. Let’s have a look.

 

[Padres1969]

Link to source document, please?

The number seems to have grown from 120 and the document from an “open letter” to a fatwa. Let’s have a look.

breitbart.com/national-security/2015/09/05/1000-indian-muslim-leaders-issue-fatwa-against-isis/

 

[Peter_Plato]

breitbart.com/national-security/2015/09/05/1000-indian-muslim-leaders-issue-fatwa-against-isis/

That’s nice.

They issue a fatwa against ISIS and…

“The anti-Christian intolerance in Jammu and Kashmir is reaching alarming proportions”

Muslims in India who convert to Christianity have frequently been subjected to intolerance, harassment, intimidation, and attacks by Muslims. In Jammu and Kashmir, the only Indian state with a Muslim majority, a Christian convert and missionary, Bashir Tantray, was killed, allegedly by militant Islamists in 2006.

The Government of Jammu-Kashmir in 2010 asked Jim Borst, a Dutch Catholic Missionary, who was at that time one of the two members of the Institute Mill Hill missionary in the Kashmir valley, to leave the valley. Borst was also in charge of two schools there. Nevertheless the spokesperson for Indian Christians, John Dayal rejected the claim that any forced conversion took place. John Dayal stated, "A fact finding team which went to Srinagar in the wake of the arrest of Rev Khanna, and interviewed Church personnel, Ulema, school authorities and the police, found no evidence of force or fraud in baptisms that have been carried out over a period of time. Each baptism has been proved to be voluntary”.

In January 2012, Sharia court of Kashmir announced ‘Fatwa’ against Christian schools in Kashmir. It asked three priests to leave valley with the charge that they were “luring Muslims to Christianity”. The court not only instructed Jammu and Kashmir government to monitor such activities in future but to also take over the management of the Christian missionary schools.

In April 2012, a Christian couple was arrested with that accusation of “promoting enmity”. The policemen later explained that the arrest was made “as a precaution to prevent tensions in the area.” However, their children tell a completely different tale: “Our parents went to Srinagar on April 16 last year to attend a wedding. The next day, while doing some shopping at the market, talking to a salesman our father said he was Christian and they were insulted, beaten and finally arrested by local police.”

In May 2012, in a premeditated arson attack Muslims set fire to a Catholic church.

Concerning these issues Father Mathew Thomas, pastor of Holy Family commented "With these gestures, the Muslim community is trying to intimidate the Christian minority. But there are not even 400 Christians in Srinagar: I appeal to Omar Abdullah, chief minister, a Muslim who studied in Christian institutions. He must protect the entire population of Srinagar, including minorities.”

A Muslim mob with Imprimatur of Local Imam, in April 2013, attacked a group of seven British Christians including five women and two children, who were living in Shivpora for about four years. Muslims hurled stones at their vehicles and house. The reason they claimed was to stop conversion to Christianity.

On 5 February 2013 eight Americans and four Koreans were attacked by an Islamic mob at 10 pm because of allegations of forced conversions propagated from a Facebook page. Some of the ruffians threw stones at the walls outside the hotel where the tourists were staying, but owing to the intervention of policemen, injuries were avoided.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_violence_in_India

 

[KathleenGee]

The people of India suffered the most with 10 million casualties in the name of Islam.

New Age Islam is working to address these. Likewise, atrocities are causing peace loving Muslims to openly voice their opposition to such barbaric, even demonic violence. I mean to say …I saw a video of the Christian church in Sugeh, Egypt being attacked by a Muslim mob and it was especially disturbing to see the rise of frenzied fanaticism.

Hillaire Belloc in his 1936 book, ‘The Mohammedans’ foresaw the return of Islam. There is something inherent in it that the Muslim world needs to denounce. We must pray for this in the face of so many genocides.

 

[Ontheway]

breitbart.com/national-security/2015/09/05/1000-indian-muslim-leaders-issue-fatwa-against-isis/

I am glad to see this. Now, show me something issued by El-Azhar, Saudi Arabia, any Arab state in the Middle East, or any group in Europe.

No, I am not being picky, but Muslims in India are not a majority, so they are more likely to issue statements like this.

 

[Padres1969]

I am glad to see this. Now, show me something issued by El-Azhar, Saudi Arabia, any Arab state in the Middle East, or any group in Europe.

No, I am not being picky, but Muslims in India are not a majority, so they are more likely to issue statements like this.

Well I’ll let you find the statements by the leadership of Jordan regarding Daesh. They have been universal in their condemnations as they’re bombing Daesh as best they can with the west. Oman as I recall has been similarly critical as has the Iraqi leadership such as it is. Your real beef is with Saudi. And you’re never going to see a condemnation by Saudi as they’re funding Daesh which is an only slightly more extreme reflection of their own warped values. Only real difference is Daesh’s end of the world version of Wahhabism.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes…I would say the beef is with both the Turks and the Saudis.

By the way, Russia is now requesting the Hagia Sophia be returned to the Orthodox. I spoke with an Greek Orthodox priest near me regarding the Cathedral and said the upkeep is very high.

Russia said they would send in specialists and take care of the cathedral themselves.

 

[Padres1969]

Yes…I would say the beef is with both the Turks and the Saudis.

By the way, Russia is now requesting the Hagia Sophia be returned to the Orthodox. I spoke with an Greek Orthodox priest near me regarding the Cathedral and said the upkeep is very high.

Russia said they would send in specialists and take care of the cathedral themselves.

Or the secular government of Turkey could do what they’ve been doing for the last 85 years and leave it as a museum, neither Christian or Muslim. Which frankly wasn’t a bad idea in the first place. I mean Hagia Sophia was a Muslim mosque 5 centuries after 9 centuries of being an Orthodox church (other than the period in the 1200’s after the Crusaders sacked Constantinople and converted it to a Catholic Church). And while Russia may be calling for it to be returned to the Greek Orthodox, there are those inside the Turkish government that have called for it to be reopened as a mosque as well. In a climate like that it seems wise to simply leave it as it is, a historical landmark that was utilized by both religions. Particularly given that this is really a move brought about by the rising tensions between Russia and Turkey over the plane that was shot down.

 

[KathleenGee]

God is answering my prayers…Russia offered to become custodian of the Hagia Sophia, restore it, and return as a Christian cathedral.

I found out today…another source, ‘Christianity Today’.

Russia is making a good will offering to Turkey.

 

[Padres1969]

God is answering my prayers…Russia offered to become custodian of the Hagia Sophia, restore it, and return as a Christian cathedral.

I found out today…another source, ‘Christianity Today’.

Russia is making a good will offering to Turkey.

Yeah it’s not a “good will offering”, if anything it’s the opposite. Russia is pissed at Turkey and looking for some kind of recompense for their downed bomber.

 

[hasantas]

I mean Ottoman did not commit persecution in non-Muslim countries which it conquered just like Andalusian Umayyad State. Christians and Muslims were used to live together in peace under Muslim’s ruling generally upon that times.

 

[hasantas]

Yes, that is true Muslims caused Armanians migrate from Turkey but before that Armanians gangs did commit atrocities and also do not forget all these happened during war. And Greek persecuted many Muslims in Balkans.

Naked Armanian girls! You do not know Islam and Muslim exactly. Obscenity itself is shamed(banned) in Islam so it is not usual to do such thing for a Muslim.

 

[jakasaki]

I mean Ottoman did not commit persecution in non-Muslim countries which it conquered just like Andalusian Umayyad State. **Christians and Muslims were used to live together in peace under Muslim’s ruling **generally upon that times.

Try telling the “bold statements” to my other side of my Greek family!

 

[KathleenGee]

Padres, spend some time reading what happened to the Holy Roman Empire by the hands of Muslim Turks. Russia and Turkey have had 9 wars, and Russia has won 7 of them.

You should start reading now on Ergodon, sorry my spelling. But he is attempting to build a new caliphate, and see how Turkey is a major route of immigration…remember…their Islamization of Europe by births. And the new palace in Ankara, 1000 rooms and separate buildings set up for new Islamic heads.

Read what happened to Serbia and its resistance fighters, by the Turks, or the Turkish destruction of Smyrna.

Hasantes…you did not read well…the Turks denuded those young girls, raped and placed them on crosses in the cold country side to die.

The Greek Genocide is only a little over 100 years old. And how did Constantinople, the center of Eastern Orthodox after 1500 years or so now become Muslim?..it is just like how did Rome now become Muslim 2000 years later?

Why are the Eastern Orthodox less in number than the Latins?..how many numbers would be higher if not for all the Muslim pogroms? You cannot count any victory for Islam if it expands by murder and dhimmitude.

So there is something inherently wrong within Islam, and no, I am very well at peace being a Christian and am not drawn at all to Islam.

 

[Padres1969]

Padres, spend some time reading what happened to the Holy Roman Empire by the hands of Muslim Turks. Russia and Turkey have had 9 wars, and Russia has won 7 of them.

You should start reading now on Ergodon, sorry my spelling. But he is attempting to build a new caliphate, and see how Turkey is a major route of immigration…remember…their Islamization of Europe by births. And the new palace in Ankara, 1000 rooms and separate buildings set up for new Islamic heads.

Read what happened to Serbia and its resistance fighters, by the Turks, or the Turkish destruction of Smyrna.

Hasantes…you did not read well…the Turks denuded those young girls, raped and placed them on crosses in the cold country side to die.

The Greek Genocide is only a little over 100 years old. And how did Constantinople, the center of Eastern Orthodox after 1500 years or so now become Muslim?..it is just like how did Rome now become Muslim 2000 years later?

Why are the Eastern Orthodox less in number than the Latins?..how many numbers would be higher if not for all the Muslim pogroms? You cannot count any victory for Islam if it expands by murder and dhimmitude.

So there is something inherently wrong within Islam, and no, I am very well at peace being a Christian and am not drawn at all to Islam.

Yes the Ottoman Turks were terrible in many instances and committed some atrocious acts. I’m well aware of that fact. No one disputes that. But we’re not talking about the Ottoman Turks, we’re talking about modern Secular Turkey and modern post-communist/post-Imperial Russia. The demand made by Russia regarding Hagia Sophia is a political move based on events in the last week, not events 100+ years ago between two Imperial governments that no longer exist.

 

[TheAtheist]

Pardon i’ve been away - although i see the thread has moved about in terms of focus.

Just for clarification, I wasn’t advocating a loyalty test - merely pointing out that right now, there’s a whole chunk of the non-Muslim population in the West that …essentially… distrusts the words/actions/deeds of Muslims for reasons you have highlighted in previous posts.

And I do thank you specifically Jharek since you do often come with knowledge(whether academic or “lived experience”).

Hence the reason i asked the question on a forum that is…well frankly better moderated than most amongst a group of people who have convictions in a different faith.

Because - if the collective “you” can’t come up with a response where the level of distrust can be dialed back a bit - then the way I see it, there’s an irreconciable problem.

Technically, these people are part of the respective political orders/nations which we belong to (in my case since i hold dual-citizenship, its doubly so for me).

But with the way things are sounding at least - it seems like we are all waiting for a proverbial match to light the powder keg.

 

[hasantas]

Thanks, Hasantas for your response.

You skip the Old Testament and the Lord’s preparation of His chosen people to bring forth the Messiah. You are bypassing Exodus, the Temple, daily sacrifice.

This waiting for the Messiah…itself was controversial…a rising and a falling for many of Israel. There were those who recognized Christ as the Messiah as well as many others who did not.

And…what is different here, is that Christ chose 12 witnesses. He did not come to expecting people to believe in Him after His death and resurrection. The 12 apostles with Christ as Cornerstone, established His Church on earth, the Breaking of the Bread on the evening of the Passover.

I could go on and on.

But there is the issue of Christ having witnesses, of fulfilling Scriptures of the Old Testament.

Christ is the final revelation of God, His Son. And through Him we are restored to Christ and made new in the daily sacrifice of the Mass.

That is consistency of faith and fulfillment. Looking at Christ on the Cross…witnesses there as well…it was said all things were raised up to Him.

So we see all of creation through Christ’s death and resurrection. Our churches are resplendent of God’s splendor of His creation…all forms of praise to Him through Christ. So the interior of our churches maintain the altar, we have pictures, statues, decorations, sacred space.

Islam goes in a very direct way and there are those within it who do not understand. The Trinity is simply the abbreviation for 3 in 1. Certainly Islam uses phrases now that were not used in its beginning. Theology develops the same, constant truths but helps us understand our religion in the world in which we live.

I want to ask…what do you think of Muslims killing innocent people to go to heaven? or killing Muslims who want to go to another religion? I ask because then Allah sounds so destructive and vengeful if this were the case and completely contradicts Christ. So truth does not contradict itself.

Jesus is Messiah.

[And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ]. 3:45

And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. 4:57

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. 4:171

Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah , nor would the angels near [to Him]. And whoever disdains His worship and is arrogant - He will gather them to Himself all together. 4:172

…

Jesus did fulfil some part of old testament and also had new testament.

Jesus is not last revelation of God. Look at Qur’an.

You claim that Qur’an order to kill innocent. Where? There are some verses about wars and also there are such verses in Old Testament too. So is not the source of old testament same as new testament. Did God contradict with Himself?

İt is so stupidity to try showing Muslims as killer! Islam order to protect innocents but not kill.

 

[Binary]

Pardon i’ve been away - although i see the thread has moved about in terms of focus.

Just for clarification, I wasn’t advocating a loyalty test - merely pointing out that right now, there’s a whole chunk of the non-Muslim population in the West that …essentially… distrusts the words/actions/deeds of Muslims for reasons you have highlighted in previous posts.

And I do thank you specifically Jharek since you do often come with knowledge(whether academic or “lived experience”).

Hence the reason i asked the question on a forum that is…well frankly better moderated than most amongst a group of people who have convictions in a different faith.

Because - if the collective “you” can’t come up with a response where the level of distrust can be dialed back a bit - then the way I see it, there’s an irreconciable problem.

Technically, these people are part of the respective political orders/nations which we belong to (in my case since i hold dual-citizenship, its doubly so for me).

But with the way things are sounding at least - it seems like we are all waiting for a proverbial match to light the powder keg.

I’m a little baffled by the lack of direct responses in this thread. This does not seem like a particularly difficult question to me. Practical responses require practical solutions.

Although it is not perfectly analogous, as a point of reference, consider the child abuse scandal in the Church. As with radicalized Islamists, the problem was grave and widespread. In response, the Church has:

-made financial remuneration to victims amounting to about $1.2 billion dollars. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlements_and_bankruptcies_in_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases)

• laicized 848 priests and sanctioned 2,572 others. (cbsnews.com/news/vatican-reveals-how-many-priests-defrocked-for-sex-abuse-since-2004/)
  -instituted numerous programs and policies to protect all children who interact with any Church staff or volunteers (VIRTUS, STAND, etc.)
  -strongly condemned the abuse.

And I am still told that the Church hasn’t done enough and that I literally support child abuse simply by continuing to be a member of the Church, or even worse, by donating my money to the Church. Can you imagine the backlash if the Church had done nothing other than issue condemnations?

Off the top of my head, here are a few practical things that the Islamic community could do to earn back trust.
-record all sermons given during communal worship and post them online.
-offer free, confidential, anonymous counseling to Muslims who are in danger of being radicalized.
-develop a “see something, say something” program and/or institute mandatory reporting policies for clergy and religious staff.
-gather and dispense funds to victims of Islamic terror attacks.

I don’t expect any of these things to happen, though. The Catholic response to the abuse scandal has been to own it. To say with humility and sorrow, “yes, my Church did that. I am ashamed and embarrassed. I want justice to be done and I never want this to happen again.” The Islamic response, so far as I have seen, is to play the victim. To say, “oh no, the most recent terror attack was another Muslim. How is this going to affect me?”

 

[Peter_Plato]

I’m a little baffled by the lack of direct responses in this thread. This does not seem like a particularly difficult question to me. Practical responses require practical solutions.

Although it is not perfectly analogous, as a point of reference, consider the child abuse scandal in the Church. As with radicalized Islamists, the problem was grave and widespread. In response, the Church has:

-made financial remuneration to victims amounting to about $1.2 billion dollars. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlements_and_bankruptcies_in_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases)

• laicized 848 priests and sanctioned 2,572 others. (cbsnews.com/news/vatican-reveals-how-many-priests-defrocked-for-sex-abuse-since-2004/)
  -instituted numerous programs and policies to protect all children who interact with any Church staff or volunteers (VIRTUS, STAND, etc.)
  -strongly condemned the abuse.

And I am still told that the Church hasn’t done enough and that I literally support child abuse simply by continuing to be a member of the Church, or even worse, by donating my money to the Church. Can you imagine the backlash if the Church had done nothing other than issue condemnations?

Off the top of my head, here are a few practical things that the Islamic community could do to earn back trust.
-record all sermons given during communal worship and post them online.
-offer free, confidential, anonymous counseling to Muslims who are in danger of being radicalized.
-develop a “see something, say something” program and/or institute mandatory reporting policies for clergy and religious staff.
-gather and dispense funds to victims of Islamic terror attacks.

I don’t expect any of these things to happen, though. The Catholic response to the abuse scandal has been to own it. To say with humility and sorrow, “yes, my Church did that. I am ashamed and embarrassed. I want justice to be done and I never want this to happen again.” The Islamic response, so far as I have seen, is to play the victim. To say, “oh no, the most recent terror attack was another Muslim. How is this going to affect me?”

Excellent! :clapping: