The Muslim Soul

  • Thread starter Thread starter KimL
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
paarsurrey said:
Hi

You know, I don’t debate, I only discuss things here. You are a friend, I don’t want to lose you. The first casuality in a debate is friendship and love.

Thanks

The ultimate truth about Jesus is that he died in Kashmir
Click to expand...
I have seen your posts and your more like the “muslim” instigator.
 
Dear Kim,

I believe the catholic views on what happens to the non-believers is very similar to the shia Muslim view. Check out the below and tell me what you think. I’m curious if non-catholics also believe the same?

NOTE: This applies to Muslims of other sects as well as non-muslims

Below is a brief answer
  1. Those who are termed ‘Jahil-e-Muqassir’ (lit. ‘culpable ignorant’). These are non-believers to whom the message of Islam has reached and who have understood its truthfulness. However, they are not prepared to accept the truth due to their obstinacy and stubbornness. This group deserves to be punished in Hell.
  2. Those who are termed ‘Jahil-e-Qasir’ (lit. ‘inculpable ignorant’). These are non-believers to whom the message of Islam has not reached, or it has been presented to them in a very incomplete and untruthful manner. Such people will attain salvation if they are truthful to their own religion.
Visit the link below for a detailed answer.
Source: Faith and reason, al-islam.org → MORE
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

You know, I don’t debate, I only discuss things here. You are a friend, I don’t want to lose you. The first casuality in a debate is friendship and love.

Thanks

The ultimate truth about Jesus is that he died in Kashmir
Click to expand...
Your tag tells most of us that friendship and love are not your intentions here.
 
Montalban said:
So God doesn’t forgive everybody, even those that do good? Those people can only ‘hope’ for mercy?

Wow!

Hey, and answering my question wasn’t hard now was it? You might actually get used to it 😉 AND you didn’t waffle on about Catholics at all. Well done 👍
Click to expand...
As Catholics we also “hope” or trust that our soul will get to heaven, based on the judgement after the second coming so you must realize we do “see” or understand this a bit differently.

I also don’t want to be thought of catorgorized with the “Non-Catholics” no offence but am not embarrassed by it, we also share the Hope after all it is a virtue.
Dessert
 
famdigy said:
Dear Kim,

I believe the catholic views on what happens to the non-believers is very similar to the shia Muslim view. Check out the below and tell me what you think. I’m curious if non-catholics also believe the same?

NOTE: This applies to Muslims of other sects as well as non-muslims

Below is a brief answer
  1. Those who are termed ‘Jahil-e-Muqassir’ (lit. ‘culpable ignorant’). These are non-believers to whom the message of Islam has reached and who have understood its truthfulness. However, they are not prepared to accept the truth due to their obstinacy and stubbornness. This group deserves to be punished in Hell.
  2. Those who are termed ‘Jahil-e-Qasir’ (lit. ‘inculpable ignorant’). These are non-believers to whom the message of Islam has not reached, or it has been presented to them in a very incomplete and untruthful manner. Such people will attain salvation if they are truthful to their own religion.
Visit the link below for a detailed answer.
Source: Faith and reason, al-islam.org → MORE
Click to expand...
Well, it certainly does seem that Catholics have a parallel teaching: we believe (as is stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church) those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel (we call them the “invincibly ignorant”) still have the possibility of being saved if they try to follow God’s will as they sincerely understand it.

Frankly, IMO, as long as there are Christians around who do not live a Christlike life, who are not “little Christs” to their neighbor, I venture that many, many non-Christians will have the right to claim “invincible/inculpable ignorance.”

There are indeed quite a few interesting parellels between Catholicism and Shi’a Islam, especially structural ones such as in the role of the clergy.

Thanks, famdigy, for the informative post! 👍
 
KimL said:
Do you think God will have mercy of the Muslim souls (or others) who “dont know any better” or “have been brain washed and ill educated into thinking the wrong thing?”

My personal feelings are HE will forgive those who have been misled and have lived a good life of searching for the truth; but had /has had blocks in their way to find it .

Your Opinions are?
Click to expand...
That’s not just your opinion, KimL. It’s the teaching of the Catholic Church as explicitly stated in the Catechism (and by the way God’s love for non-Catholics is emphasized during the petitions of the Easter Vigil, “For the Jewish people…,” “For the Muslim people…,” “For those who do not believe in God…”).

I have seen in many posts (not yours, of course) that people who receive bad teaching will necessarily do bad actions. This is no more true than those who receive good teaching are immune from ever doing things which are not good.

What did Jesus say about “casting the first stone”? About “to whom much is given…”?
 
dessert said:
As Catholics we also “hope” or trust that our soul will get to heaven, based on the judgement after the second coming so you must realize we do “see” or understand this a bit differently.

I also don’t want to be thought of catorgorized with the “Non-Catholics” no offence but am not embarrassed by it, we also share the Hope after all it is a virtue.
Dessert
Click to expand...
It’s more than hope for Christians. Jesus promised us that God will always love us. All we need do is respond.

For Moslems even those that love their god al-lah, aren’t sure if he’ll love them back
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

You know, I don’t debate, I only discuss things here. You are a friend, I don’t want to lose you. The first casuality in a debate is friendship and love.

Thanks

It’s not a ‘debate’ when I ask you further questions. It’s seeking answers.

Ironically this calls for me to debate; what I’m doing now - disagreeing with you

If you think that someone asking you questions - seeking further information, is debating, then that’s more your problem than mine.

I see you’ve returned to your Kashmir signature! Which is in effect what you’re here to do - simply spam the threads with opinion about your faith.
Click to expand...
 
So, by Christian understanding God will forgive those who seek forgiveness. Whether Moslems (who by being Moslem defy God by rejecting him for another; al-lah) are forgiven, is up to God.

According to the Koran, all Christians will go to hell…
3:85
Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

5:72
They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. … Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

Then again, some won’t…
2:62
Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

5:69
Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

This is becaus Al-lah doesn’t forgive everything…
4:48
Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him.

4:116
Lo! Allah pardoneth not that partners should be ascribed unto Him.

4:137
Those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them.

4:168
Those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them.

9:80
Ask forgiveness for them (O Muhammad), or ask not forgiveness for them; though thou ask forgiveness for them seventy times Allah will not forgive them. That is because they disbelieved in Allah and His messenger.

47:34
Those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them.

63:3-6
They believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed so that they understand not. … Whether thou ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them is all one for them; Allah will not forgive them.
 
Montalban said:
So, by Christian understanding God will forgive those who seek forgiveness. Whether Moslems (who by being Moslem defy God by rejecting him for another; al-lah) are forgiven, is up to God.
Click to expand...
The presumption that Muslims reject God simply because they do not accept the Trinity or the Incarnation goes against Catholic teaching as stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

But, you are right in the sense that God will forgive whom He wishes to forgive – we humans cannot presume to set limits upon Him in that regard.
3:85
Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
Click to expand...
2:62
Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
Click to expand...
5:69
Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
Click to expand...
So, Allah does automatically consider these categories of non-Muslims to be unbelievers? Or doesn’t he?

Seems if they “do right,” they will not be damned.
This is because Al-lah doesn’t forgive everything…
Click to expand...
47:34
Those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them.
Click to expand...
63:3-6
They believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed so that they understand not. … Whether thou ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them is all one for them; Allah will not forgive them.
Click to expand...
This Allah that you say is nothing like the Judeo-Christian God sounds an awful lot like Him. The Judeo-Christian God does not forgive those who do not ask for forgivenesss.

God bless!

(Where’s Tatoo?) 🙂
 
nonsumd said:
The presumption that Muslims reject God simply because they do not accept the Trinity or the Incarnation goes against Catholic teaching as stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
So I’ve now got to deal with the Catholic understanding too? Why broaden the debate?

Also I don’t say that they reject God simply over differences in ‘the Trinity’. I say it because what Islam stands for is not *for *God

They believe in a god who deceives. A god who doesn’t even save all those who seek it. etc.
nonsumd said:
But, you are right in the sense that God will forgive whom He wishes to forgive – we humans cannot presume to set limits upon Him in that regard.
Click to expand...
This is the Orthodox understanding. I can say what God has said about seeking to forgive all who seek forgiveness, but I can’t say that you personally are going to go to hell - whereas a Catholic friend of mine tells me that of me, because I was Catholic and now I’m not. The mere act of leaving the RCC has damned me - as far as he knows.
nonsumd said:
So, Allah does automatically consider these categories of non-Muslims to be unbelievers? Or doesn’t he?
Click to expand...
Who can tell from the mix-up in the Koran
nonsumd said:
Seems if they “do right,” they will not be damned.
Click to expand...
They can’t be sure of it.
nonsumd said:
This Allah that you say is nothing like the Judeo-Christian God sounds an awful lot like Him. The Judeo-Christian God does not forgive those who do not ask for forgivenesss.
Click to expand...
No. The main difference is those in Islam who follow Al-lah are not sure they’ll be in heaven - unless they’re martyrs - the only 100% guaranteed act for salvation.
 
What does God,YWEH, ALLAH require for conversion of the soul?
Hmmmmmm?
Dessert
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

It is always the **Clergy/Mullah **hijacking the truthful Revealed Religions, and establishing their hegemony over the faithful (sheep) when the Shepherd (the Prophet) is away (or died). Then the wolf tears the sheep apart.

Thanks

Since Jesus left no written Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, or authenticated by him when he last departed from Galilee; hence my Catholic friends believe many creeds created by the Catholic Clergy not originated by Jesus himself in person.
Click to expand...
Then what does God YHWH Allah require for the conversion of the Muslim soul?
Dessert
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top